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InvisibleTippinthru
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Unexplainable difference in substrate colonization, and speed.
    #5901905 - 07/26/06 01:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)


Tray 1



Tray 2


Bag

Same exact spawn, spawn rate, substrate, substrate volume, depth, incubation condition, and time (day 3+ hours).

Tray 1 was covered with cling wrap, masking taped in place, and pin holed with an 18 gauge needle.

Tray 2 was impulse sealed in the type autoclave bag shown.
(one side of the bag is 0.02 micron grade (or better) white tyvek like filter material, the other side see through material.)
The bag was not pin holed.

Tray 1 has some condensation on the cling wrap covering.

Tray 2 has a large amount of very fine condensation on the clear part.

Tray 1 exhibits fairly normal colonization (my opinion).

Tray 2 exhibits exceptionally fast, aggressive colonization.

Tray 2 exhibits significant rhizomorph colonization.

I wonder if this is just a fluke?
Or, is Tray 1 just slow.
Or, sealing Tray 2 in the bag, made the difference.

If this post is not appropriate, in this forum.
Please move it to mush/cult.


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Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time...
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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: Unexplainable difference in substrate colonization, and speed. [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5902018 - 07/26/06 02:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

wrong forum.
different growth is normal unless identical genetics and environment. even then, that's nature.
in this case you cannot ensure either factor.
sorry.


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buh

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InvisibleTippinthru
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Re: Unexplainable difference in substrate colonization, and speed. [Re: shirley knott]
    #5902034 - 07/26/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Same spawn. Wouldn't the genetics be the same?
Exact same environment, excluding the bag.

7 other unbagged trays, are near exact in colonization rate.
Only the bagged tray exhibits exceptionally fast aggressive growth.


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Invisibletoole
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Re: Unexplainable difference in substrate colonization, and speed. [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5902174 - 07/26/06 03:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

This could be in the cultivation forum or here I believe.

I feel that when tipp replied that explained it.

She has a study here for us to utilize, something not commonly seen in the cultivation threads.


She shows us here a strange result;

Could it have just been the proper amount of exposed air Tipp? that is, the second bag with two-seperate materials for sides, maybe the proper flow is more vital than procured?

Maybe not?

Are you sure nothing else was different?

Definitely try the second bag brand again ! Especially if the results continue (duh ! :P)

But that is definitely cool so far, let us know how another 'second' bag goes !

gl-


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-the adventures of suse and prescott.9-

..and the neverending triscut of doom !

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Invisibletoole
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Re: Unexplainable difference in substrate colonization, and speed. [Re: toole]
    #5902182 - 07/26/06 03:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

note:

Either way the advanced forum isn't as active as it should be ! People are scared (scared may not be the best word, but they may feel that they will be 'challenged' rather than helped) sometimes to post things here because of shots like that, instead of trying to foward it to it's proper place can't we just answer things?

2cents nothing more.

thanks


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-the adventures of suse and prescott.9-

..and the neverending triscut of doom !

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InvisibleTippinthru
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Re: Unexplainable difference in substrate colonization, and speed. [Re: toole]
    #5902307 - 07/26/06 04:15 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

toole said:
This could be in the cultivation forum or here I believe.

I feel that when tipp replied that explained it.

She has a study here for us to utilize, something not commonly seen in the cultivation threads.


She shows us here a strange result;

Could it have just been the proper amount of exposed air Tipp? that is, the second bag with two-seperate materials for sides, maybe the proper flow is more vital than procured?

Maybe not?

Are you sure nothing else was different?

Definitely try the second bag brand again ! Especially if the results continue (duh ! :P)

But that is definitely cool so far, let us know how another 'second' bag goes !

gl-




Tray 1.


Is NOT bagged. It was covered with cling wrap, that was secured with tape, to insure the cling wrap stayed in place.

The cling wrap was pin holed, to allow for some gas/Rh exchange.

Tray 2.


was simply impulse sealed into an autoclave-able bag, used to sterilize large medical instruments/items. The bag was NOT pin holed, because the white tyvek like material, 1/2 the bag is made of, is a tyvek type material that, allows for gas exchange.

The only other variable would be the color, and style of the tray.
Both are 12 quart volume, both are polypropylene material.
I doubt the tray color, could be a factor. Given, both are being incubated in total darkness.

Spawn came from the same jars, into the same substrate, at the same spawn rate. All 8 trays (1 bagged, 7 not bagged) are being incubated in a 24 cubic foot freezer, modified into an incubator. That can be heated, or cooled, dependent on circumstance needed. Same unit is rigged for unfiltered, or hepa filtered FAE, and Rh control - as needed.

It doubles as an incubator, and/or fruiting chamber.

I plan to repeat this again - shortly with 1 bagged tray, and 1 unbagged tray, with identical trays. This time, the spawn will a mycelium isolate, grown out in an LC, injected into WBS jars.

So, the genetics should be identical.


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Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time...
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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Unexplainable difference in substrate colonization, and speed. [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5902359 - 07/26/06 04:40 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think you should send me all those bags. :wink:  I can only imagine a different gas exchange equation going on.  I guess you'll get your answer when you make up a few more trays and see if they behave the same. 
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Invisiblecloudtop
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Re: Unexplainable difference in substrate colonization, and speed. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5902480 - 07/26/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Certainly the gas exchange has to be accountable for this. If validated in further tests, the question becomes how to evaluate and subsequently emulate the gas exchange inherent to the tyvek. What mechanism could be influencing such an advantageous gas exchange?


--------------------
peacefromabovecloudtop


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InvisibleTippinthru
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Re: Unexplainable difference in substrate colonization, and speed. [Re: cloudtop]
    #5902531 - 07/26/06 05:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cloudtop said:
Certainly the gas exchange has to be accountable for this. If validated in further tests, the question becomes how to evaluate and subsequently emulate the gas exchange inherent to the tyvek. What mechanism could be influencing such an advantageous gas exchange?




The material is not "tyvek". It is some type of filter paper.
It's tough, but not as tough as tyvek.

I think, the bag allows for optimal gas exchange, and does not lose as much moisture, as is being lost in the other trays.


--------------------
Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time...
[

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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: Unexplainable difference in substrate colonization, and speed. [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5903039 - 07/26/06 08:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

and/or the "other" tray is actually having to stave off contams from the pinholes. just a possibility. the absolute best spawn runs i've witnessed were in sealed filter patch bags.

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Offline888
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Re: Unexplainable difference in substrate colonization, and speed. [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5905350 - 07/27/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

the temps could be different...

also spawn can vary... like if you look in a jar started from spores you can see diffent sections of different growth. When you first open a jar you can transfer peices that look different (rhizo, cotton) to different jars. Then you can use those isolates to spawn two different trays and you will see a difference. Some isolates are more vigorous and will grow faster than others and take over.

so maybe there was more rhizo spawn in the one tray than the other.

Another factor could be if the water content is different... like if tray 1 has more water it will take longer to colonize.

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InvisibleTippinthru
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Loc: "The Garden"...
Re: Unexplainable difference in substrate colonization, and speed. [Re: 888]
    #5905423 - 07/27/06 01:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Cottony Myc can turn rhyzo, and visa versa.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5905254/an/0/page/0

I doubt that is causing the difference.

The apparently higher retained moisture content, may be a significant factor.


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Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time...
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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: Unexplainable difference in substrate colonization, and speed. [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5905428 - 07/27/06 01:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:popcorn:

very interested in those bags...


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Invisiblecloudtop
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Re: Unexplainable difference in substrate colonization, and speed. [Re: monstermitch]
    #5911699 - 07/29/06 11:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Alright, after having reviewed some of the monotub techniques various bulk cultivators have switched to, I'm convinced that the success of your filtered bag is due to a more appropriate gas exchange. In consideration of carbon dioxide's propensity towards gas exchange subjacent to that of oxygen, the flow of gas in the plastic wrap bag may be ineffective for allowing carbon dioxide to exit.

Perhaps in a future trial you could attempt one of the filtered bags w/ the filter on top to see if your results are closer to the plastic wrap? If so, then maybe we ought to start considering a vacuum system for the bottom of tubs to pull carbon dioxide from below the substrate and avoid competition w/ fresh oxygen.


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peacefromabovecloudtop


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Offlinekristen
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Re: Unexplainable difference in substrate colonization, and speed. [Re: cloudtop]
    #5933794 - 08/05/06 05:48 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So on a side note, anyone use Tyvek/micropore during colonization for bulk tubs?

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