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Annapurna1
liberal pussy

Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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poll ..US nuclear first strike...
#5898171 - 07/25/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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foreign affairs...
keir lieber believes that the neocons could easily win a large scale nuclear war against russia and china...however..i am more than a bit skeptical that at least a few russian nukes wont still get through..resulting in millions of american deaths...
and there are two other big problems that liebers' optimism ignores ..the enviromental consequences of a very large nuclear bombardament.. and the problem of combatting insurgent militias in the conquered territories (as witness iraq)...
these are intimately related..since the only way to deal with the insurgents is to proactively eliminate them with a nuclear attack large enough to cause the environmental consequences...
the environmental consequences of global radioactive contamination and nuclear winter wont spare bush country on the one hand..while considerably degrading the value of the spoils on the other...
so our poll asks whether the neocon wet dream of a US global dictatorship is worth the consequences of a unilateral US nuclear first strike ..
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
Edited by Annapurna1 (07/25/06 01:14 PM)
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buckwheat
Cynically Insane

Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: Annapurna1]
#5900255 - 07/25/06 11:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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You ever read Webster Tarpley's books? I just finished watching a speech of his on video google on the exact same topic of Neo-cons wanting nuclear war with China and Russia with 911 as a prelude to this war.On 911 one of the exercise drills called Global Guardian involved a cold war type defense posture with B-52's loaded with nukes on standby incase Putin said no to the invasion of Afghanistan.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2699841318334319800&q=webster+tarpley
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: buckwheat]
#5901076 - 07/26/06 04:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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There is no "win" to a full scale nuclear war. The US could certainly kill the enemy more times over than the enemy could kill the US, but with all sides dead, does it really matter? Even if not a single nuke fell on the US, the world would still die, along with the US.
> On 911 one of the exercise drills called Global Guardian involved a cold war type defense posture
Goodness... the TFH Brigade distorts facts... unreal... For those that care, the Global Guardian is an annual event to test and validate nuclear command and control and execution procedures used by the US Strategic Command. I know for fact that Global Guardian was in practice in 1994, many years before 9/11. It is normally scheduled during the fall months of September or October. I guess Clinton was in on the conspiracy too, eh?
Edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Guardian:Quote:
The September 11, 2001 attacks occurred during that year's Global Guardian and Vigilant Guardian joint exercises. That year, according to the 9/11 Commission Report, Vigilant Guardian 'postulated a bomber attack from the former Soviet Union' on North America. The Russian 37th Air Army was, in fact, conducting major bomber exercises across the Arctic and Atlantic at this time, amongst the largest carried out by them since 1993. Both the American and the Russian exercises were canceled after the attack.
Lets look again at your statement, and see if you can point out where the tin foil hat comes into play:
Quote:
On 911 one of the exercise drills called Global Guardian involved a cold war type defense posture with B-52's loaded with nukes on standby in case Putin said no to the invasion of Afghanistan.
Was this the first Global Guardian? Nope, not by a long shot. It has been an annual event for many decades.
Does Global Guardian involve "cold war type defense posture?" Perhaps, but not really. It is a drill to test the command and control structure in the event of a nuclear attack upon the US. This isn't really a "defense posture" as was used during the cold war where bombers loaded with live nuclear munitions skimmed USSR air space 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, with 1 extra day every four years.
When did the US & Allies invade Afghanistan? Was on Sept 11th, the day of the attacks? Nope, an entire month passed after 9/11 before the invasion of Afghanistan.
Oh wait... I was wrong... we did it all to make Putin let us invade Afghanistan. I'm glad we got Putin's permission before we invaded Iraq. I wonder how many B52 bombers with nukes in a cold war defense posture it took to convince him on that one...
Edited by Seuss (07/26/06 05:04 AM)
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: Seuss]
#5901389 - 07/26/06 09:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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The neocons have argued vehemently against global warming and climate change. Maybe they think that a wide scale pre-emptive nuclear strike against China, Russia, etc. would have no impact on our ecology and climate. After all, those countries are halfway around the world, how could dropping nukes on them possibly affect us?
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy

Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5901508 - 07/26/06 10:06 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: The neocons have argued vehemently against global warming and climate change. Maybe they think that a wide scale pre-emptive nuclear strike against China, Russia, etc. would have no impact on our ecology and climate. After all, those countries are halfway around the world, how could dropping nukes on them possibly affect us?
as such..the neocons prolly dont believe in a nuclear winter...but not even they can deny the reality of nuclear contamination rechaing US soil...moreover..at the present moment..there are compelling financial incentives for the neocons not to start a war with china...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: Annapurna1]
#5901521 - 07/26/06 10:15 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poster: Annapurna1 Subject: Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike...
Quote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LunarEclipse said: The neocons have argued vehemently against global warming and climate change. Maybe they think that a wide scale pre-emptive nuclear strike against China, Russia, etc. would have no impact on our ecology and climate. After all, those countries are halfway around the world, how could dropping nukes on them possibly affect us?
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as such..the neocons prolly dont believe in a nuclear winter...but not even they can deny the reality of nuclear contamination rechaing US soil...moreover..at the present moment..there are compelling financial incentives for the neocons not to start a war with china...
The U.S. government was more than willing to deny the absolute reality of the adverse effects of nuclear contamination and resulting health problems in Nevada and Utah from the nuclear bomb testing there in the 1950s. People have fought for years to be compensated for getting sick from it largely to no avail.
After 9/11 at Ground Zero, the clean up workers in NYC were told the air was "safe" yet testing revealed otherwise. Many of those workers have now gotten sick. Is the government compensating them?
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (07/26/06 10:16 AM)
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy

Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5901580 - 07/26/06 10:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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thats not necessarily true...the govt deliberately exposed those ppl to nuclear fallout as an experiment..which was later upheld by what was actually a liberal SCOTUS...and while this is at the very least ethically questionable..its not the same thing as denying that there would be any effects...
the purpose of the experiment was prolly to judge the effects of long term exposure to low levels of contaminants.. the effects of high levels having already been determined from hiroshima and nagasaki...
and then..of course..theres the zappa argument (which i strongly disagree) that those ppl should have been smart enough to move out of the path of the fallout clouds...and while that was an option in the case of limited bomb tests..it wont be so in a nuclear war...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
Edited by Annapurna1 (07/26/06 11:03 AM)
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: Annapurna1]
#5901663 - 07/26/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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are we taking bets on this? how much would you like to wager? i'll give you... 50:1 odds that the bush administration does not attack russia or china with nuclear weapons. what do you say?
(if i lose, i can pay you in nonperishable food items, gasoline, ammunition, or whatever post-apocalyptic bartering standard of your choice if you prefer)
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: wilshire]
#5901852 - 07/26/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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lol thats funny
-------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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buckwheat
Cynically Insane

Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: Seuss]
#5901871 - 07/26/06 12:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
Quote:
Goodness... the TFH Brigade distorts facts... unreal... For those that care, the Global Guardian is an annual event to test and validate nuclear command and control and execution procedures used by the US Strategic Command. I know for fact that Global Guardian was in practice in 1994, many years before 9/11. It is normally scheduled during the fall months of September or October. I guess Clinton was in on the conspiracy too, eh?
I never said anything about it being the first one. kinda funny though that 911 had the most pre-scheduled Drills of any day in History.I'm not a liberal and i hate the Clinton's I fear the wrath of Hilary. And according to these. Global Guardian is scheduled for October-November or was in the years prior to 911.
"According to a 1998 Internet article by the British American Security Information Council—an independent research organization—Global Guardian is held in October or November each year. [Kristensen, 10/1998] In his book Code Names, NBC News military analyst William Arkin dates this exercise for October 22-31, 2001. [Arkin, 2005, pp. 379] And a military newspaper reported in March 2001 that Global Guardian was scheduled for October 2001. [Space Observer, 3/23/2001, pp. 2 pdf file] If this is correct, then some time after March, the exercise must have been rescheduled for early September."
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searc...ch=on&search=Go
Edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Guardian:Quote:
The September 11, 2001 attacks occurred during that year's Global Guardian and Vigilant Guardian joint exercises. That year, according to the 9/11 Commission Report, Vigilant Guardian 'postulated a bomber attack from the former Soviet Union' on North America. The Russian 37th Air Army was, in fact, conducting major bomber exercises across the Arctic and Atlantic at this time, amongst the largest carried out by them since 1993. Both the American and the Russian exercises were canceled after the attack.
Quote:
Lets look again at your statement, and see if you can point out where the tin foil hat comes into play:
I dont know what you mean by this 
Quote:
On 911 one of the exercise drills called Global Guardian involved a cold war type defense posture with B-52's loaded with nukes on standby in case Putin said no to the invasion of Afghanistan.
Quote:
Was this the first Global Guardian? Nope, not by a long shot. It has been an annual event for many decades.
Where did i say that? You'd think i would have read the article i linked you to 
Quote:
Does Global Guardian involve "cold war type defense posture?" Perhaps, but not really. It is a drill to test the command and control structure in the event of a nuclear attack upon the US. This isn't really a "defense posture" as was used during the cold war where bombers loaded with live nuclear munitions skimmed USSR air space 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, with 1 extra day every four years.
Obviously not a real cold war posture.
Quote:
When did the US & Allies invade Afghanistan? Was on Sept 11th, the day of the attacks? Nope, an entire month passed after 9/11 before the invasion of Afghanistan.
Putin talked with Bush on 911 doesn't matter how long it took them to invade.It was simply a precautionary measure to be ready.Russia also was running drills on before and on 911 though i don't know the frequency of Russian drills they probably timed it with Global Guardian and the other 15 drills since the Russians know the possible implications of these drills
Even Bush admits he did not know where Putin would stand.
"You need to know that when I was on Air Force One and ordered alerts -- increased alert status for our troops, President Putin was the first call I got. And he made it clear that he would stand down their troops. In other words, to me it was a moment where it clearly said to me, he understands the Cold War is over. In the past, as you well know, that had the President put the -- raised the DEF CON levels of our troops, Russia would have responded accordingly. There would have been inevitable tension."
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/09/10/ar911.russia.putin/
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searc...ch=on&search=Go
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: Annapurna1]
#5901924 - 07/26/06 01:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Health troubles persist for 9/11 rescue workers Updated 6/25/2006 11:22 PM By Stephanie Armour, USA TODAY It was late in the night when James Zadroga, sleeping beside his 4-year-old daughter, woke up to fetch her some milk. It was no easy errand: The former New York City police detective's lungs were so scarred that he needed supplemental oxygen to breathe. In 2001, after the attack on the World Trade Center, he'd donned a paper mask and toiled at Ground Zero on rescue and recovery missions. Then he developed a cough and damaged lungs. Four years later, the 34-year-old was dying.
Sometime in that January night, Zadroga fell to the bedroom floor. At dawn, his father came into the room and found him, then gently woke the girl to tell her that Zadroga was dead. Her bottle was still in his hand. "I told her that her daddy has passed and she cried, 'No, no, he's just sleeping, he just got up to get me a bottle,' " says Joseph Zadroga, of Little Egg Harbor Township, N.J., who is now raising his granddaughter, Tyler Ann. Her mother died two years earlier.
An autopsy done by a New Jersey coroner attributed James' death to dust from Ground Zero. He had never been a smoker and had no previous respiratory problems. "No one should have to go through this," his father says.
Nearly five years after the terrorist attack, thousands of workers who toiled at the World Trade Center site continue to experience health problems, according to doctors at Mount Sinai Center for Occupational & Environmental Medicine in New York.
Zadroga's death — the first death linked by an autopsy to toxins at the site — has galvanized union leaders and politicians such as Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., to call for more aid and investigation.
Concern over ongoing ailments plaguing World Trade Center workers is also leading to accusations that federal safety oversight at Ground Zero was lax — a charge that federal officials vigorously deny. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) officials said in a statement issued to USA TODAY in May that they responded immediately as events unfolded, with the highest priority being to protect the environment and health of the people of New York.
The agency took more than 10,000 samples of air, water and dust, which yielded more than a quarter of a million results, and worked with other federal agencies to caution that workers should wear protective gear. Officials acknowledge that some workers from the site now are ill.
A class-action lawsuit has been filed alleging that the agency made false reassurances about the air quality at the site. No trial date has been set.
"The EPA said there was no danger, but this was the perfect storm of environmental toxins, and now we're paying the price," says Thomas Cahill, an air pollution expert and professor emeritus at the University of California, Davis, who studied the air quality around Ground Zero. "It was wildly toxic, and the EPA knew that. Hopefully, this will lead to a renewed effort not to forget these people."
About 40,000 workers toiled at Ground Zero, including immigrant day laborers, contractors, volunteers from other towns, paramedics, firefighters and police officers. They carried out myriad tasks, from digging through rubble in search of survivors to delivering ice and water. It's uncertain how many may now be sick.
A medical screening and monitoring program coordinated by Mount Sinai Center for Occupational & Environmental Medicine in New York indicates that more than half need immediate medical or mental health treatment. The estimate is based on a sample of the 16,000 workers screened to date. In fact, demand is so great that the waiting list for care through an independent treatment program offered by Mount Sinai is 16 weeks. The study looks at those who worked at the site during or shortly after the disaster.
Rare lung diseases emerge
One concern now is the emergence in first responders of rare lung-scarring diseases that could be fatal, says Robin Herbert, director of the World Trade Center program at Mount Sinai. Another concern is the potential for an increased rate of cancer in coming years. Asthma, chronic sinusitis and mental health problems also are common among those who were first on the scene.
"It's tragic. Our work has identified large numbers of heavily exposed workers who were never provided with appropriate respiratory protection," Herbert says. "A more vigorous public health approach might have prevented illnesses we're seeing today."
Glenn Greene, a Department of Justice lawyer representing former EPA administrator Christine Whitman, declined to comment on allegations that safety precautions were lax, as did the DOJ's press office. "From the moment the planes hit the World Trade Center, the men and women of the (EPA) ... began to do everything in their power to protect the people of New York," Whitman said in a February statement.
The city of New York, which has also been criticized for its handling of safety issues, said in a 2002 release from the law department that it "did everything in its power to assist people" and that "decisions were made with the best possible information available."
Vinny Forras just doesn't want his sacrifices to be forgotten. He believes more funding for treatment of first responders, as well as some sort of memorial for those who die after 9/11 of diseases related to exposure, is vital.
Forras, 48, was a volunteer firefighter at the South Salem (N.Y.) Fire Department who was dispatched to the World Trade Center the day of the attack. The first thing he saw was the firetruck that his best friend had been riding in smashed by the debris from the collapsing towers; his friend had been killed. Forras worked at the site night and day.
On his second day, he woke up at a triage center gasping for air; he was given steroids by the medical staff, he said, and sent back to work. At one point, Forras was working on rescue and recovery when he tried to climb down a beam; instead, he found himself buried briefly under the rubble. For an hour and a half, he says, he remained trapped underground.
Three months later, his breathing problems began, he says. Forras, who has never smoked, used to be able to run two or three miles a day. Now, he can get winded walking from the car to his home, he says.
He uses steroids and inhalers to breathe, antidepressants to help combat post traumatic stress disorder and sleep medications. He lives on disability payments from workers' compensation and Social Security. "It's very hard to see your own kids taking care of you," says Forras, founder of the Gear Up Foundation, a non-profit that donates fire equipment, prevention and training around the world. "We humbly did what we did. It was our job. But in 10, 15 years, we'll be ghosts. We're the Ground Zero walking wounded."
And that has become a growing fear: that some first responders at the scene could develop lung diseases and other ailments that will kill them — adding to the attack's death total. Many responders, such as volunteers from other cities, may not realize their health problems are related or get the assistance they need.
One million tons of dust
An estimated 1 million tons of dust rained down on the city and the 16-acre disaster zone, showering the area with asbestos, Freon, carcinogens, concrete, glass fibers, lead and other hazards. Workers inhaled caustic fine cement dust and a mixture of sulfuric acid, a byproduct of combustion, which defeated the lungs' defense system and allowed particles to become deeply embedded, Cahill says.
David Worby, a lawyer in White Plains, N.Y., represents about 8,000 clients with health problems who are suing supervisors, the EPA, the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey, contractors and others involved in the cleanup. He says more than 50 families have lost loved ones due to their Twin Towers work. No trial dates have been set.
"There are thousands of people who will get cancer and will die from this, and the government isn't doing anything," Worby says. "Every week I get one or two calls from a cop saying, 'What do I do for my wife and kids? I've just been diagnosed with leukemia or sarcoidosis (an inflammation that creates scar tissue, often in the lungs).' "
The Port Authority declined to comment on any pending litigation.
There has been financial assistance, including a $125 million federal package that will help fund a health registry of World Trade Center first responders and nearby residents. The money includes $75 million for screenings, exams and treatment for rescue and recovery workers, as well as $50 million to the New York State Uninsured Employers Fund for reimbursement of 9/11-related claims. But some, such as Mount Sinai's Herbert, say more will be needed, because even a few severe illnesses can run up staggering medical costs. An April study from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found more than half of survivors reported new or worsening respiratory symptoms after the attacks.
EPA says it gave help
EPA officials say in a statement that the agency "provided masks and goggles for rescuers and crew workers. EPA also encouraged rescue workers to wet down the debris to help protect themselves from asbestos, smoke and dust."
The agency says it provided more than 22,000 respirators, more than 32,000 respirator cartridges and other protective gear and emphasized the need for respiratory protection at daily operations meetings at the site.
"As our nation continues its effort to keep Americans safe from future attacks on our country, EPA remains passionately committed to protecting the health of our citizens and our environment," the agency said in a statement.
But the EPA and other federal offices are coming under criticism for their response.
In an 82-page pretrial ruling in a class-action lawsuit filed by residents and workers in the area, U.S. District Court Judge Deborah Batts said Whitman's "deliberate and misleading" statements about the air quality "shocks the conscience. "
She also said in her February opinion that the EPA knew as soon as Sept. 12, 2001 — the day after the attack — that one of the first air samples contained an asbestos level four times higher than the EPA threshold for danger. The judge was ruling on motions to dismiss counts in the case; Batts agreed to let the lawsuit continue.
Whitman responded with a release that said, "every action taken by the EPA during the response to this horrific event was designed to provide the most comprehensive protection and the most accurate information to the residents of Manhattan. To imply otherwise is completely inaccurate."
Posted 6/25/2006 11:07 PM ET
And the hits just keep on coming...
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy

Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5902257 - 07/26/06 03:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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apples & oranges...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: Annapurna1]
#5902418 - 07/26/06 05:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poster: Annapurna1 Subject: Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike...
apples & oranges...
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: Annapurna1]
#5902542 - 07/26/06 05:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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hey, did you miss my offer?
now i understand that in the event that i lose, one or both of us may be killed instantly, or it may be impossible for you to contact me to collect on the bet, or for me to make payment. communications and transporation infrastructure may be down.
those things considered though, is 50:1 still not good odds? what would be fair to you?
is it that you already have enough supplies stocked for the coming nuclear armageddon? just out of curiousity, what preparations have you made?
or are you just making nonsense posts about something you know isn't going to happen?
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy

Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: wilshire]
#5903329 - 07/26/06 10:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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im refusing your offer..because the topic of the thread is not whether there will be a unilateral US nuclear strike.. but rather if the "reward" of world conquest is worth the risks of such a manoeuvre...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy

Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: Annapurna1]
#5908326 - 07/28/06 08:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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bump...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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mack_tasticlies
Stranger

Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 167
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
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Re: poll ..US nuclear first strike... [Re: Annapurna1]
#5908333 - 07/28/06 08:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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you are the best Annapurna.
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