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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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Loc: space
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the life we are born into
#5897616 - 07/25/06 09:54 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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to what extent are we free to be who we want to be, when we are born into a certain situation? And how personally responsible are we for our reaction to it?
case in point: George W Bush
Now, in the past I have been quite critical of Mr Bush, as many others have. But sometimes, I step back and realize that he, just like me, is a pawn of the older generation.
Since he was a boy, he has been molded and shaped by his family and environment to be the person he is. I remember when I was a boy, my father had season tickets to the ranger games. We sat right behind the dugout, less than 100m away from Mr Bush. I remember my father pointing to him and saying: "Son, that man is going to be president someday."
So its obvious to me that he has been pushed into politics by his father, the petroleum industry, and the military industrial complex. Looking back at the early years of his life, its obvious that Bush was a guy just like you and me. He came from wealth, and he lived it up. He was a partier who was not immune to the temptations of drugs and alchohol.
But at some point, he was forced to 'grow up', and basically become a man just like his father. I can only imagine the pressure that was applied to him.
Can we really judge a man like George W. Bush, without having lived his life and without having underwent the terribly high expectations his family, friends, and social institutions have had on him? For all we know, Georgie boy yearns for the days of being a carefree playboy, rich kid baseball team owner, without a care in the world.
If some rich kid came on here posting, you probably wouldn't judge him, even if his family's wealth came from some crooked enterprise. As a matter of fact, I would bet that most of the people on here are upper middle class or higher, and their wealth and comfort comes from family businesses which in some way benefit from the suffering of others. Everyone in America is lucky to have been blessed with the wealth of the world that other countries have been unjustly denied. No one has the right to point fingers, because we are all part of the same hypocrisy. While you and I live it up, people are starving. You or I could do something to change this, but instead we smoke pot and chat on our fancy computers all day. We have not earned this life, we have simply been fortunate enough to be born into it. But we still judge Mr Bush simply because of the positon life has put him in.
As the son of a wealthy man who may have been involved in less than reputable business in the past, I identify with Bush a lot, personally. Not that I am a republican apologist or anything, but maybe it takes a crooked man to run the country.
Another case: Pablo Escobar. Widely regarded as one of the most violent, sleazy drug traffickers ever. But who is to say that he didn't have to do the things he did, in order to make lemonade from the lemons life haned him? Born into the abject poverty of Columbia, Escobar saw a way to make his country rise: coca. And he actually built a lot of wealth for his country, fed a lot of families that would have gone hungry. Sure, he had people killed. But I seriously doubt that there is a single man in the world with that much power and money who hasn't had to have a few people knocked off.
Its not so much that power corrupts, but that corruption is a necessary evil when you have power. My old man used to say: "You get to the top, and they give you a trophy and a bullseye."
Build a mountain of wealth and power, and you can expect there to be a bunch of hooligans that come out of the woodwork trying to take it from you. And you might have to pre-emptively do some sleazy shit just to keep what is rightfully yours.
Sure, we can all look at politicians and say: "What a bunch of scumbags."
But who among us knows what it is like to have the fates of millions of people in your hands, to have to be the one who makes these tough decisions about who lives and who dies?
A military strategist almost has to be psychotic. He plans a battle, knowing that a certain percentage of troops aren't going to be coming home. But no one blames FDR for all the casualties at Normandy, rather they credit him for winning a war against a brutal dictator by any means necessary.
anyway, just food for thought. I guess what I'm really trying to say here is "don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes."
Many people fail to realize that applies to the crooked billionaire just as much as it applies to the homeless drug addict.
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: the life we are born into [Re: DoctorJ]
#5897630 - 07/25/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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that's very true dude. i recently have undergone a role reversal about Bush after thinking these things.
but I disagree, we have to have earned it..... karma + rebirth eh? Or is it just random cyclical placement? The singularity of only living one life, as Hitler or a playboy, doesn't work out at all... more like we come in, take snapshots of the world, and pass those snapshots on into our next interation.... shifting about to and fro based upon how we view the world, how we choose to act with it...... etc.
that's the only way to make sense of the plight of us having fancy computers, and Mexican children not having shoes.
and really you don't have to do a lot. $40 a year from every internet user in North America will stop starvation. I give a few hundred a year [kind of like $100-250 probably]. not a lot ? Not really.... but by standards enough. I don't exactly make much cash. I think I will give 10% to charities though of my income.
I dunno.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (07/25/06 10:02 AM)
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
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Re: the life we are born into [Re: leery11]
#5897645 - 07/25/06 10:08 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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send $40 to africa, eh?
an whose hands does that fall into? their crooked-ass government?
millions in charity has been sent to starving nations, and it almost always gets misapropriated by warlords.
most charities are a scam. you know they have to pay those people who run the charities, right? The heads of charities live in nice houses and drive Lexi and BMWs paid for by donations. How much of that $40 will make it into the hands of the truly needy?
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
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Re: the life we are born into [Re: DoctorJ]
#5897669 - 07/25/06 10:20 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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another thing:
many people don't realize the extent to which power and corruption are necessarily connected.
For instance: does anyone here realize what it takes to accomplish something truly massive, such as the rection of a skyscraper?
In order to rally the support and cooperation of the multitudes of people necessary to complete such a product, there has to be corruption.
You gotts pay off the city council so they can muscle the landowners with emminent domain. You have to have union support. Pockets have to be greased, and people have to be intimidated to go along.
I seriously doubt that any large building has been built simply by a magic alignment of thousands of people who all of the sudden agree that yes, there should be a building right here, and it should be this tall and owned by this company.
Most of the major accomplishments of humanity have been achieved by coercion and intimidation. The Great Pyramids and the moon landing are both examples of this.
Most people don't realize how pervasive corruption is in the world around us. The next time you look at some great accomplishment of humanity, realize that that accomplishment was not made without stepping on a few toes. Everyone has their own ego, their own view of how things should be, and life is a constant struggle for dominance by any means necessary. Those in power have to push folks, manipulate, coerce, or intimidate them in order to get things done. The pieces don't just fall into place by themselves.
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: the life we are born into [Re: DoctorJ]
#5898227 - 07/25/06 01:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: send $40 to africa, eh?
an whose hands does that fall into? their crooked-ass government?
millions in charity has been sent to starving nations, and it almost always gets misapropriated by warlords.
most charities are a scam. you know they have to pay those people who run the charities, right? The heads of charities live in nice houses and drive Lexi and BMWs paid for by donations. How much of that $40 will make it into the hands of the truly needy?
what is the alternative? you could of course go to foreign nations and see to it that people are fed on your own.... or even just work on feeding the poor in your nation. yes, that is true.
but intention plays a big role in this.
the skyscraper thing is a good reminder though.
ultimately we make the world go round, and if we spent all our spare money on people other than ourselves, the world WOULD bear reflection. then corrupt charities wouldn't be tolerated, because people don't want wasted money... etc, etc.
who knows.
corruption is probably a reflection of our complacency to be where we end up, and stay there.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (07/25/06 01:26 PM)
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WIZOLZ
Poor with Needs


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 290
Loc: Monte Carlo
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Re: the life we are born into [Re: DoctorJ]
#5898285 - 07/25/06 01:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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If these buildings are considered actual accomplishments and not just the agenda's of expanding the empire, I see no worse way to go about it then forcing people in deceitfull and intimidating ways. Any person will work harder and with more loyalty when the powers to be are allowing them the neccesary human rights and truths they desearve. Don't think like men who wish to control other men for their own glory. Bring people together under a shared belief and open system you most surely will produce much more things worthy of being called human accomplishment's. Good leadership incorporate's ethical balance, not superiority and debasment of lesser advantaged people.
-------------------- ---------o----o----o-------o------------------------o--o-o- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Requim for a Dream - Paul Oakenfold --------------------------------------------------------------- "The mis/abuse of any form of power, is the worst form of ignorance" ------------------------------------------------------------- WIZOLZ - Lover with a Killer's Smile
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: the life we are born into [Re: WIZOLZ]
#5898327 - 07/25/06 01:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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hey, I'm not talking about they way things should be
I'm merely acknowledging the way they are.
lots of people think: "I'm going to get rich, and then everything will be OK."
thats just not true. Power and wealth attract attention from thieves and bullies.
I think it was nietchze (never could spell that right) who said: "Those who fight demons should take care not to become demons themselves."
But on the other hand, look what happens when an honest, well-intentioned man gets elected president: he gets shot (Kennedy).
Thus, in order to enact change within a crooked system, you must become crooked yourself, to a certain extent. Otherwise, you are a sitting duck.
Thus, achievement is only half the battle. next comes defense of your achievement from looters. This often involves pre-emptive violence or intimidation.
The only reason the laws of this country stand is because they are backed by the military and police. The 'honor system' simply doesn't work, due to the corruption inherent in all human minds. There has to be the threat of retaliation against those who would break the code.
personally, I see being wealthy and powerful as more of a pain in the ass then they are worth. I'd much rather be poor and have nothing to offer those who would rob me.
I think Tyler Durden said it best: "The things you own, end up owning you. Only when you have lost everything, are you free to do anything."
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: the life we are born into [Re: DoctorJ]
#5898451 - 07/25/06 02:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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"The only reason the laws of this country stand is because they are backed by the military and police. The 'honor system' simply doesn't work, due to the corruption inherent in all human minds. There has to be the threat of retaliation against those who would break the code." i don't know about that at all. society conditions us to have impure minds. the more controlling we get, and more force and consequence oriented we get, the less morals mean anything altogether....
right and wrong because an issue of legal and illegal.
not of morality.
the honor system could work if things were reduced properly to that which they need to be.
but perhaps this is just an ill of societies existing AT ALL and the only way for peaceful existence to exist is in small closely knit and sovereign communities.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: the life we are born into [Re: DoctorJ]
#5898527 - 07/25/06 02:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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On the one hand, I agree that we shouldn't be so quick to judge people as evil when we have not walked in their shoes. On the other hand, I do believe in holding people accountable for their actions. Bush may not be an evil person, but he's a lousy president. I'm sure if I met him he'd seem like a nice(albeit dimwitted) guy, but at his job, he is incompetent at best and destructive at worst. I'm not going say that because I don't approve of the job he's doing that he's therefore an evil person, but I do believe he's hurting America.
On another note, I should point out that when Satan tempted Jesus in the desert, he offered him all the kingdoms of the world, which implies that the reins of power were his to give, and therefore controlled by him.
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
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Re: the life we are born into [Re: Silversoul]
#5898619 - 07/25/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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man, I really think George doesnt have shit to do with being president. Its obvious to me he's a manchurian candidate.
thus, I choose not to hold him personally accountable, and instead blame the powers above him. To hold him accountable would be blaming a scapegoat and letting the real evil ones off the hook. I'm pretty sure GWB is just a slow-witted patsy, and i am unwilling to lay blame at his feet when I know damn well there are much worse and more responsible people to blame in the shadows behind Bush.
in response to your other note, you must also realize that Satan's promises are empty. He promises but never delivers. So just because he offered Jesus the reigns of power, doesn't mean they were his to give.
Though I do believe that satan runs the world in another, more pervasive way: by simply having an influence on the minds of those that actually run the world. The reason I have always said that earth is a Luciferian planet is because the voice of God in the minds of Earth's inhabitants is not nearly as strong as the voice of Satan.
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