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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Specter Sues Bush
#5897527 - 07/25/06 09:16 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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A powerful Republican committee chairman who has led the fight against President Bush's signing statements said Monday he would have a bill ready by the end of the week allowing Congress to sue him in federal court.
"We will submit legislation to the United States Senate which will...authorize the Congress to undertake judicial review of those signing statements with the view to having the president's acts declared unconstitutional," Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter, R-Pa., said on the Senate floor.
Specter's announcement came the same day that an American Bar Association task force concluded that by attaching conditions to legislation, the president has sidestepped his constitutional duty to either sign a bill, veto it, or take no action.
Bush has issued at least 750 signing statements during his presidency, reserving the right to revise, interpret or disregard laws on national security and constitutional grounds.
"That non-veto hamstrings Congress because Congress cannot respond to a signing statement," said ABA president Michael Greco. The practice, he added "is harming the separation of powers."
Bush has challenged about 750 statutes passed by Congress, according to numbers compiled by Specter's committee. The ABA estimated Bush has issued signing statements on more than 800 statutes, more than all other presidents combined.
Signing statements have been used by presidents, typically for such purposes as instructing agencies how to execute new laws.
But many of Bush's signing statements serve notice that he believes parts of bills he is signing are unconstitutional or might violate national security.
Still, the White House said signing statements are not intended to allow the administration to ignore the law.
"A great many of those signing statements may have little statements about questions about constitutionality," said White House spokesman Tony Snow. "It never says, 'We're not going to enact the law.'"
Specter's announcement intensifies his challenge of the administration's use of executive power on a number of policy matters. Of particular interest to him are two signing statements challenging the provisions of the USA Patriot Act renewal, which he wrote, and legislation banning the use of torture on detainees.
Bush is not without congressional allies on the matter. Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, a former judge, has said that signing statements are nothing more than expressions of presidential opinion that carry no legal weight because federal courts are unlikely to consider them when deciding cases that challenge the same laws.
http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2006/07/24/ap2900817.html
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Diploid]
#5897562 - 07/25/06 09:35 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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What a JOKE. This is nothing but grandstanding by Specter.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy

Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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or it might be an attempt by repugnicans to "frag" bush and make dick cheney POTUS...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Annapurna1]
#5897958 - 07/25/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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you know i would love that!
I am so disappointed in the Republican 2008 candidates. all polls have Rudy Juliana leading comfortably.
Hillary vs Rudy in 2008
Two fucking Yankee lawyers. that would suck...
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
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Vote Libertarian!
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Redstorm]
#5897980 - 07/25/06 12:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Good luck. Hope you get over a million votes this time.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Who else is there to vote for?
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Diploid]
#5899189 - 07/25/06 06:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Redstorm]
#5899305 - 07/25/06 07:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: Vote Libertarian!
That's right! Throw your vote away!
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said: Good luck. Hope you get over a million votes this time.
It's better to vote for what you believe in than cutting losses with a lesser evil.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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beatnicknick
The Innovator


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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Basilides]
#5899567 - 07/25/06 08:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Basilides said:
Quote:
lonestar2004 said: Good luck. Hope you get over a million votes this time.
It's better to vote for what you believe in than cutting losses with a lesser evil.
I highly disagree. Than you are letting the greater evil have one more chance of reigning than the lesser. No one cares that you stand for what is right, what actually is going to happen is more important. Unless of course you can convince every democrat to vote ralph nader style you'd be better off just standing up for something that you can actually make a difference in.
-------------------- I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
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I'm of the persuasion that the Dem's and Rep's are both an equal evil.
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Redstorm]
#5899600 - 07/25/06 08:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I am sorry to be melodramatic but IMO the Dem's have become Marxist.
Yes the Republicans are not much better but sometimes I see similarities between the Cold War (Dem's lost) and the War on Terror. (Dem's losing)
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.-- C. S. Lewis"
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said: I am sorry to be melodramatic but IMO the Dem's have become Marxist.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Redstorm]
#5901092 - 07/26/06 05:09 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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> I'm of the persuasion that the Dem's and Rep's are both an equal evil.
Glad I read the entire post before stating the obvious as well. We see alike on this.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,460
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Redstorm]
#5901171 - 07/26/06 05:57 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: I'm of the persuasion that the Dem's and Rep's are both an equal evil.
I am getting closer to this opinion more everyday.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Vvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said: I am sorry to be melodramatic but IMO the Dem's have become Marxist.
Yes the Republicans are not much better but sometimes I see similarities between the Cold War (Dem's lost) and the War on Terror. (Dem's losing)
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.-- C. S. Lewis"
you've really lost it. but ok, I'll play along. how have the democratic party evolved into a revolutionary marxist organization?
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Vvellum]
#5901412 - 07/26/06 09:20 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
bi0 said: you've really lost it. but ok, I'll play along. how have the democratic party evolved into a revolutionary marxist organization?
Democrats are always talking about Issues like RACE, women rights, gay rights and evil Republicans. You never hear them talking about the average tax paying working man.
Great!
but this is the sick part....
The Democrats don't give a Fuck about these Issues. For example:
Janice Rogers Brown
A Black Female! Daughter of a Sharecropper.
Everything in their agenda should lead them to say, "This is great! We care about the equality of women. Half the country is Republican. We have a Republican black woman. Now those racist Republicans will have to respect a black woman!
But they hate her guts, and say awful things about her...
Harry Reid (D-NV) the Democrats Senate LEADER! Said: "She is a woman who wants to take us back to the Civil War days"......
Why??? because thats not what their agenda is.
The issue is never the issue with the Democrats, the revolution is the issue.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
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I don't see how that makes them Marxist.
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RosettaStoned
Stranger

Registered: 05/29/06
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Quote:
Democrats are always talking about Issues like RACE, women rights, gay rights and evil Republicans. You never hear them talking about the average tax paying working man.
This is bullshit. Everytime I see a democrat on c-span they are taking about budget issues and raising the minimum wage, controlling spending ect.. They do always throw in shots at the repubs, but taking shots at the opposing political party has been going on since thomas jefferson was alive, or were they marxist too?
-------------------- "Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson "Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa
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Vvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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ok, so what on earth does that have to do with marxism?
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Vvellum]
#5902194 - 07/26/06 03:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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The Democrats/Liberals or Progressives ARE Marxists.
"Progressive" has been used as a code word used internally for Marxists, rabid socialists, communists and their "useful idiots" for at LEAST the last 55 years.
The ONLY thing progressive that "Progressives" believe in is a progressive income tax:
Socialism in America is alive, well, and growing. Democratic Socialists of America (70+ members in Congress) socialism is advancing in America behind the "Progressive" label
Democratic Socialists of America (70+ members in Congress)
Congressional Members of the Progressive Caucus
Rep Earl Hilliard (AL-07) Rep Eni Faleomavaega (AS-AL) Rep Ed Pastor (AZ-02) Rep Lynn C Woolsey (CA-06) Rep George Miller (CA-07) Rep Nancy Pelosi (CA-08) Rep Fortney "Pete" Stark (CA-13) Rep Henry A. Waxman (CA-29) Rep Xavier Becerra (CA-30) Rep Julian C. Dixon (CA-32) Rep Esteban Edward Torres (CA-34) Rep Maxine Waters (CA-35) Rep George E. Brown (CA-42) Rep Bob Filner (CA-50) Rep Diane DeGette (CO-01) Rep Eleanor Holmes Norton (DC-AL) Rep Corrine Brown (FL-03) Rep Carrie P. Meek (FL-17) Rep Alcee L. Hastings (FL-23) Rep Cynthia A. McKinney (GA-04) Rep John Lewis (GA-05) Rep Neil Abercrombie (HI-01) Rep Patsy Mink (HI-02) Rep Jesse Jackson (IL-02) Rep Luis Gutierrez (IL-04) Rep Danny Davis (IL-07) Rep Lane Evans (IL-17) Rep Julia Carson (IN-10) Rep John Olver (MA-01) Rep Jim McGovern (MA-03) Rep Barney Frank (MA-04) Rep John Tierney (MA-06) Rep David Bonior (MI-10) Rep Lynn N. Rivers (MI-13) Rep John Conyers (MI-14) Rep Bennie G. Thompson (MS-02) Rep Melvin L. Watt (NC-12) Rep Donald Payne (NJ-10) Rep Jerrold Nadler (NY-08) Rep Major Owens (NY-11) Rep Nydia M. Velazquez (NY-12) Rep Charles Rangel (NY-15) Rep Maurice Hinchey (NY-26) Rep John LaFalce (NY-29) Rep Marcy Kaptur (OH-09) Rep Dennis Kucinich (OH-10) Rep Louis Stokes (OH-11) Rep Sherrod Brown (OH-13) Rep Elizabeth Furse (OR-01) Rep Peter A. DeFazio (OR-04) Rep Chaka Fattah (PA-02) Rep William Coyne (PA-14) Rep Carlos A. Romero-Barcelo (PR-AL) Rep Robert C. Scott (VA-03) Rep Bernard Sanders (VT-AL) Rep James A. McDermott (WA-07)
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
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What classifies them as socialist? The fact that they are Democrats?
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said: The Democrats/Liberals or Progressives ARE Marxists.
False. You have no clue what Marxism is about, and not only would most progressives object to the comparison, but so would Marxists. I know, because I also post on another board that has lots of Marxists, and they have nothing but disdain for such "bourgeois liberals."
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Silversoul]
#5902294 - 07/26/06 04:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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" because I also post on another board that has lots of Marxists,"
Gee, what a surprise.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: zappaisgod]
#5902297 - 07/26/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: " because I also post on another board that has lots of Marxists,"
Gee, what a surprise.
About as surprising as that assinine comment coming from you.
--------------------
Edited by Silversoul (07/26/06 04:16 PM)
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Silversoul]
#5902301 - 07/26/06 04:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Enough, both of you.
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Redstorm]
#5902324 - 07/26/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS OF AMERICA (DSA)
Largets Socialist organization in the U.S. Works closely with the radical Democratic Progressive Caucus
Describing itself as "the principal U.S. affiliate of the Socialist International," the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) is the largest socialist organization in the United States. "We are socialists,"many of us have been active in the Democratic Party," says DSA. "We work with those movements to strengthen the party's left wing, represented by the Congressional Progressive Caucus. ... Maybe sometime in the future ... an alternative national party will be viable. For now, we will continue to support progressives who have a real chance at winning elections, which usually means left-wing Democrats."http://www.dsausa.org/dsa.html
now over 70 Congressional Members of the Progressive Caucus
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said: DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS OF AMERICA (DSA)
Largets Socialist organization in the U.S. Works closely with the radical Democratic Progressive Caucus
Describing itself as "the principal U.S. affiliate of the Socialist International," the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) is the largest socialist organization in the United States. "We are socialists,"many of us have been active in the Democratic Party," says DSA. "We work with those movements to strengthen the party's left wing, represented by the Congressional Progressive Caucus. ... Maybe sometime in the future ... an alternative national party will be viable. For now, we will continue to support progressives who have a real chance at winning elections, which usually means left-wing Democrats."http://www.dsausa.org/dsa.html
now over 70 Congressional Members of the Progressive Caucus
First of all, democratic socialism is different from Marxism. Second, this is merely an example of a fringe group deciding to support what they consider the lesser of two evils, since no one will support their own platform. This is like some KKK group supporting a conservative Republican because of their opposition to affirmative action and support of the Confederate flag. That doesn't mean the Republican is affiliated with their ideology.
--------------------
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Silversoul]
#5902369 - 07/26/06 04:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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OK you tell me. (please)
what is the difference between Marxism-Communism-Socialism.
I admit that i do not know much about Karl Marx, other than he was a LAZY DRUNK WHO LET HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN STARVE TO DEATH!
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
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and I bet Marx hated Jews too!
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said: what is the difference between Marxism-Communism-Socialism.
Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production(capital and land) are owned by the public or by the workers. This is most often achieved by nationalization of industries, though others have proposed alternative means of achieving this, such as worker co-ops.
Communism is the end state of Marxism. It is a classless, stateless society based on common ownership of property. Under communism, the state is no longer necessary to organize society, because there is no more class antagonism. Some small groups, such as the Amish, have managed to maintain a society similar to communism.
Marxism is the ideology of Karl Marx. He believed that history follows a certain pattern, and that communism was the inevitable outcome. But in order to facilitate this outcome, he advocated a transitional, socialist state, which he referred to as a "dictatorship of the proletariat," meaning that the proletariat, or working class, would be in charge. Marx saw revolution as the only way in which this change could be achieved. Upon the success of such a revolution, he supported the establishment of a vanguard party to implement several policies, including nationalization of the land and of industry, a heavy progressive income tax, abolition of inheritance rights, centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state, and confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Democratic Socialism advocates a more gradual transition to socialism using the democratic process. They seek to get candidates elected who will support unions and labor movements, and try to nationalize key industries. It differs from Marxism in its democratic approach. It does not advocate revolution, and does not seek to restrict voting to party members, as Marxism does.
Liberalism, if it can be briefly defined, is characterized by an attempt to reconcile liberty and equality. Liberals do not oppose the market or private industry, but simply seek to improve working conditions and provide a social safety net for the disadvantaged. Liberals also support environmentalism, which has nothing to do with socialism, as well as civil liberties, which run contrary to many of Marx's ideas.
Quote:
I admit that i do not know much about Karl Marx, other than he was a LAZY DRUNK WHO LET HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN STARVE TO DEATH!
I hear he ate babies too.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
lonestar2004 said: and I bet Marx hated Jews too!
Marx was a Jew.
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Silversoul]
#5902510 - 07/26/06 05:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks!
OK, IYO
"Democratic Socialism advocates a more gradual transition to socialism using the democratic process."
Could socialism lead to Marxism? (gradually)
And i will admit technically democrats are not Marxist, and Karl Marx did not hate Jews.
But! he was a drunk, lazy, and let his children starve to death.
Seriously, I remember reading that somewhere a few years ago and will try and find a link.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Trepiodos
Disgustipated


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Measured by government spending, Republicans are bigger socialists than the Democrats. The Republican warfare state is the classic example of a socialist enterprise, based upon the supposed interests and/or glory of the collective or the state (as an agent of the collective), it diverts resources to non-productive enterprises, destroys liberties and provides rationalizations and for an ever larger and more intrusive government. See my sig...
--------------------
And as things fell apart, Nobody paid much attention... - David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Silversoul]
#5902749 - 07/26/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
lonestar2004 said: and I bet Marx hated Jews too!
Marx was a Jew.
Guess what! He hated Jews.
Karl Marx is regarded as the first "modern" anti-Semite.
In 1843, Karl Marx's first essay of note was produced: "On The Question of the Jews".
http://www.marx.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/index.htm
Marx reiterated a stereotype of Jews as capitalist puppeteers that was still in its earliest stages: "The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the trader, and, above all of the financier." Marx hoped to uncover what he called "the real Jew":
"Let us not seek the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us seek the secret of the religion in the real Jew. What is the profane basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly cult of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly god? Money.
Very well: then in emancipating itself from huckstering and money, and thus from real and practical Judaism, our age would emancipate itself.
An organization of society which would abolish the preconditions and thus the very possibility of huckstering, would make the Jew impossible. His religious consciousness would evaporate like some insipid vapour in the real, life-giving air of society . . .
We discern in Judaism, therefore, a universal antisocial element of the present time, whose historical development, zealously aided in its harmful aspects by the Jews, has now attained its culminating point, a point at which it must necessarily begin to disintegrate.
In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Judaism."
So for the record he hated the Jews first and then capitalists.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Trepiodos]
#5905206 - 07/27/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Trepiodos said: Measured by government spending, Republicans are bigger socialists than the Democrats. The Republican warfare state is the classic example of a socialist enterprise, based upon the supposed interests and/or glory of the collective or the state (as an agent of the collective), it diverts resources to non-productive enterprises, destroys liberties and provides rationalizations and for an ever larger and more intrusive government. See my sig...
I think it's a mistake to think of socialism simply in terms of big vs. small government. That is not what socialist ideology is about. It is true that many socialists are of a statist stripe, but there are also many who call themselves "libertarian socialists"(anarchists). And socialism does not have a monopoly on big government either. Having a big "warfare state," as you put it, is more closely linked to fascism(though I guess they call it "neoconservatism" these days) than it is to socialism.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Silversoul]
#5905216 - 07/27/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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No, fascism is still socialist.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: zappaisgod]
#5905220 - 07/27/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said: No, fascism is still socialist.
False
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Trepiodos
Disgustipated


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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Silversoul]
#5905243 - 07/27/06 12:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Fascism is a variety of socialism, it is national socialism in which the means of production are 'owned' by private individuals on paper, though they are controlled by state rules (since ownership implies control, it is de facto state ownership). It utilizes the profit motive for the benefit of the state (which is said to represent 'the people' or the collective). This is opposed to state communism which is another variant of socialism in which the state (which is said to represent the people or the collective) claims full ownership of the means of production.
Edited by Trepiodos (07/27/06 12:57 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Silversoul]
#5905470 - 07/27/06 02:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: No, fascism is still socialist.
False
True
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