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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5902000 - 07/26/06 02:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

ok, so what on earth does that have to do with marxism?


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Vvellum]
    #5902194 - 07/26/06 03:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The Democrats/Liberals or Progressives ARE Marxists.

"Progressive" has been used as a code word used internally for Marxists, rabid socialists, communists and their "useful idiots" for at LEAST the last 55 years.

The ONLY thing progressive that "Progressives" believe in is a progressive income tax:

Socialism in America is alive, well, and growing. Democratic Socialists of America (70+ members in Congress) socialism is advancing in America behind the "Progressive" label


Democratic Socialists of America (70+ members in Congress)

Congressional Members of the
Progressive Caucus

Rep Earl Hilliard (AL-07)
Rep Eni Faleomavaega (AS-AL)
Rep Ed Pastor (AZ-02)
Rep Lynn C Woolsey (CA-06)
Rep George Miller (CA-07)
Rep Nancy Pelosi (CA-08)
Rep Fortney "Pete" Stark (CA-13)
Rep Henry A. Waxman (CA-29)
Rep Xavier Becerra (CA-30)
Rep Julian C. Dixon (CA-32)
Rep Esteban Edward Torres (CA-34)
Rep Maxine Waters (CA-35)
Rep George E. Brown (CA-42)
Rep Bob Filner (CA-50)
Rep Diane DeGette (CO-01)
Rep Eleanor Holmes Norton (DC-AL)
Rep Corrine Brown (FL-03)
Rep Carrie P. Meek (FL-17)
Rep Alcee L. Hastings (FL-23)
Rep Cynthia A. McKinney (GA-04)
Rep John Lewis (GA-05)
Rep Neil Abercrombie (HI-01)
Rep Patsy Mink (HI-02)
Rep Jesse Jackson (IL-02)
Rep Luis Gutierrez (IL-04)
Rep Danny Davis (IL-07)
Rep Lane Evans (IL-17)
Rep Julia Carson (IN-10)
Rep John Olver (MA-01)
Rep Jim McGovern (MA-03)
Rep Barney Frank (MA-04)
Rep John Tierney (MA-06)
Rep David Bonior (MI-10)
Rep Lynn N. Rivers (MI-13)
Rep John Conyers (MI-14)
Rep Bennie G. Thompson (MS-02)
Rep Melvin L. Watt (NC-12)
Rep Donald Payne (NJ-10)
Rep Jerrold Nadler (NY-08)
Rep Major Owens (NY-11)
Rep Nydia M. Velazquez (NY-12)
Rep Charles Rangel (NY-15)
Rep Maurice Hinchey (NY-26)
Rep John LaFalce (NY-29)
Rep Marcy Kaptur (OH-09)
Rep Dennis Kucinich (OH-10)
Rep Louis Stokes (OH-11)
Rep Sherrod Brown (OH-13)
Rep Elizabeth Furse (OR-01)
Rep Peter A. DeFazio (OR-04)
Rep Chaka Fattah (PA-02)
Rep William Coyne (PA-14)
Rep Carlos A. Romero-Barcelo (PR-AL)
Rep Robert C. Scott (VA-03)
Rep Bernard Sanders (VT-AL)
Rep James A. McDermott (WA-07)


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5902275 - 07/26/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

What classifies them as socialist? The fact that they are Democrats?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5902282 - 07/26/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
The Democrats/Liberals or Progressives ARE Marxists.



False. You have no clue what Marxism is about, and not only would most progressives object to the comparison, but so would Marxists. I know, because I also post on another board that has lots of Marxists, and they have nothing but disdain for such "bourgeois liberals."


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #5902294 - 07/26/06 04:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

" because I also post on another board that has lots of Marxists,"

Gee, what a surprise.


--------------------


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5902297 - 07/26/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
" because I also post on another board that has lots of Marxists,"

Gee, what a surprise.



About as surprising as that assinine comment coming from you.


--------------------


Edited by Silversoul (07/26/06 04:16 PM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #5902301 - 07/26/06 04:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Enough, both of you.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Redstorm]
    #5902324 - 07/26/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS OF AMERICA (DSA)

Largets Socialist organization in the U.S.
Works closely with the radical Democratic Progressive Caucus


Describing itself as "the principal U.S. affiliate of the Socialist International," the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) is the largest socialist organization in the United States. "We are socialists,"many of us have been active in the Democratic Party," says DSA. "We work with those movements to strengthen the party's left wing, represented by the Congressional Progressive Caucus. ... Maybe sometime in the future ... an alternative national party will be viable. For now, we will continue to support progressives who have a real chance at winning elections, which usually means left-wing Democrats."http://www.dsausa.org/dsa.html

now over 70 Congressional Members of the
Progressive Caucus


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5902343 - 07/26/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS OF AMERICA (DSA)

Largets Socialist organization in the U.S.
Works closely with the radical Democratic Progressive Caucus


Describing itself as "the principal U.S. affiliate of the Socialist International," the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) is the largest socialist organization in the United States. "We are socialists,"many of us have been active in the Democratic Party," says DSA. "We work with those movements to strengthen the party's left wing, represented by the Congressional Progressive Caucus. ... Maybe sometime in the future ... an alternative national party will be viable. For now, we will continue to support progressives who have a real chance at winning elections, which usually means left-wing Democrats."http://www.dsausa.org/dsa.html

now over 70 Congressional Members of the
Progressive Caucus



First of all, democratic socialism is different from Marxism. Second, this is merely an example of a fringe group deciding to support what they consider the lesser of two evils, since no one will support their own platform. This is like some KKK group supporting a conservative Republican because of their opposition to affirmative action and support of the Confederate flag. That doesn't mean the Republican is affiliated with their ideology.


--------------------


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #5902369 - 07/26/06 04:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

OK you tell me. (please)

what is the difference between Marxism-Communism-Socialism.

I admit that i do not know much about Karl Marx, other than he was a LAZY DRUNK WHO LET HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN STARVE TO DEATH!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5902392 - 07/26/06 04:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

and I bet Marx hated Jews too!


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5902458 - 07/26/06 05:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
what is the difference between Marxism-Communism-Socialism.



Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production(capital and land) are owned by the public or by the workers. This is most often achieved by nationalization of industries, though others have proposed alternative means of achieving this, such as worker co-ops.

Communism is the end state of Marxism. It is a classless, stateless society based on common ownership of property. Under communism, the state is no longer necessary to organize society, because there is no more class antagonism. Some small groups, such as the Amish, have managed to maintain a society similar to communism.

Marxism is the ideology of Karl Marx. He believed that history follows a certain pattern, and that communism was the inevitable outcome. But in order to facilitate this outcome, he advocated a transitional, socialist state, which he referred to as a "dictatorship of the proletariat," meaning that the proletariat, or working class, would be in charge. Marx saw revolution as the only way in which this change could be achieved. Upon the success of such a revolution, he supported the establishment of a vanguard party to implement several policies, including nationalization of the land and of industry, a heavy progressive income tax, abolition of inheritance rights, centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state, and confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

Democratic Socialism advocates a more gradual transition to socialism using the democratic process. They seek to get candidates elected who will support unions and labor movements, and try to nationalize key industries. It differs from Marxism in its democratic approach. It does not advocate revolution, and does not seek to restrict voting to party members, as Marxism does.

Liberalism, if it can be briefly defined, is characterized by an attempt to reconcile liberty and equality. Liberals do not oppose the market or private industry, but simply seek to improve working conditions and provide a social safety net for the disadvantaged. Liberals also support environmentalism, which has nothing to do with socialism, as well as civil liberties, which run contrary to many of Marx's ideas.


Quote:

I admit that i do not know much about Karl Marx, other than he was a LAZY DRUNK WHO LET HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN STARVE TO DEATH!



I hear he ate babies too.


--------------------


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5902459 - 07/26/06 05:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
and I bet Marx hated Jews too!



Marx was a Jew.


--------------------


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #5902510 - 07/26/06 05:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks!

OK, IYO

"Democratic Socialism advocates a more gradual transition to socialism using the democratic process."

Could socialism lead to Marxism? (gradually)

And i will admit technically democrats are not Marxist, and Karl Marx did not hate Jews.

But! he was a drunk, lazy, and let his children starve to death.

Seriously, I remember reading that somewhere a few years ago and will try and find a link.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5902592 - 07/26/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Measured by government spending, Republicans are bigger socialists than the Democrats. The Republican warfare state is the classic example of a socialist enterprise, based upon the supposed interests and/or glory of the collective or the state (as an agent of the collective), it diverts resources to non-productive enterprises, destroys liberties and provides rationalizations and for an ever larger and more intrusive government. See my sig...


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #5902749 - 07/26/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
and I bet Marx hated Jews too!



Marx was a Jew.




Guess what! He hated Jews.


Karl Marx is regarded as the first "modern" anti-Semite.


In 1843, Karl Marx's first essay of note was produced: "On The Question of the Jews".

http://www.marx.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/index.htm

Marx reiterated a stereotype of Jews as capitalist puppeteers that was still in its earliest stages: "The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the trader, and, above all of the financier." Marx hoped to uncover what he called "the real Jew":

"Let us not seek the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us seek the secret of the religion in the real Jew. What is the profane basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly cult of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly god? Money.

Very well: then in emancipating itself from huckstering and money, and thus from real and practical Judaism, our age would emancipate itself.

An organization of society which would abolish the preconditions and thus the very possibility of huckstering, would make the Jew impossible. His religious consciousness would evaporate like some insipid vapour in the real, life-giving air of society . . .

We discern in Judaism, therefore, a universal antisocial element of the present time, whose historical development, zealously aided in its harmful aspects by the Jews, has now attained its culminating point, a point at which it must necessarily begin to disintegrate.

In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Judaism."

So for the record he hated the Jews first and then capitalists.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5905206 - 07/27/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
Measured by government spending, Republicans are bigger socialists than the Democrats. The Republican warfare state is the classic example of a socialist enterprise, based upon the supposed interests and/or glory of the collective or the state (as an agent of the collective), it diverts resources to non-productive enterprises, destroys liberties and provides rationalizations and for an ever larger and more intrusive government. See my sig...



I think it's a mistake to think of socialism simply in terms of big vs. small government. That is not what socialist ideology is about. It is true that many socialists are of a statist stripe, but there are also many who call themselves "libertarian socialists"(anarchists). And socialism does not have a monopoly on big government either. Having a big "warfare state," as you put it, is more closely linked to fascism(though I guess they call it "neoconservatism" these days) than it is to socialism.


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #5905216 - 07/27/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

No, fascism is still socialist.


--------------------


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5905220 - 07/27/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No, fascism is still socialist.



False


--------------------


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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: Specter Sues Bush [Re: Silversoul]
    #5905243 - 07/27/06 12:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Fascism is a variety of socialism, it is national socialism in which the means of production are 'owned' by private individuals on paper, though they are controlled by state rules (since ownership implies control, it is de facto state ownership). It utilizes the profit motive for the benefit of the state (which is said to represent 'the people' or the collective). This is opposed to state communism which is another variant of socialism in which the state (which is said to represent the people or the collective) claims full ownership of the means of production.


Edited by Trepiodos (07/27/06 12:57 PM)


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