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OfflineKremlin
life in E minor
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Shrooms: Induced or true?
    #589631 - 03/26/02 04:03 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

The classic little problem with drugs, are they just distortions of our perception, or do they add to our perception? Ive been struggling alot with this lately, i think they add to our perception, but the fact that a shroom makes us hallucinate is because it poisons us, maybe its a near-death experience like thing instead, who knows...i think all our drug experiences add to our perceptions tho.

The problem then becomes that if you realize things about society ( since drugs always make you think your thoughts are profound ), how do you incorporate them into your normal perception of life if you dont fully accept it? Im kinda stuck in this middle right now, not knowing where to turn.

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


Edited by Kremlin (03/26/02 04:06 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: Kremlin]
    #589837 - 03/26/02 11:42 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Keeping on the path after a transcendent experience is the same problem swami's and guru's have had since the dawn of man. Definately something to chew on and do a lot of reading about. I'm currently going through Ralph Metzners "Varieties of transformative experience" which is pretty good.

But it's not going to be easy - as Bill Hicks said "When i take mushrooms i get hope, then i watch TV and i become hopeless"


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: Kremlin]
    #592875 - 03/29/02 03:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

but the fact that a shroom makes us hallucinate is because it poisons us,

That is total bullshit; by any commonly accepted definition of the word "poison."

I'm surprised how many people believe this and eat shrooms anyway.

To respond to your actual question though-
Hallucinogens show you more signal, and more noise.
You will see profound truths and profound falsehoods you would never have come upon otherwise, but it's up to you to figure out which is which.

It's not that mushrooms are showing you -more- of reality. But they're showing you a -different- reality than you've seen before.

You know Plato's cave, right? If not, read up. Psychadelics won't let us out of the cave. But they'll replace the dim firelight behind the shadow puppets you've been watching all your life with thousands of watts of brightly colored strobe lights.

And now that you have more than one reference point, you start to understand that your "normal" perceptions are also just a highly subjective approximation of the real world.

'Consensus Reality' is merely the sum of all trips divided by the number of trippers.


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OfflineTannis
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Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: Kremlin]
    #592881 - 03/29/02 03:54 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Shrooms fire up the brain......they remove the brain filter chemically and allow the mind to perceive other things and then start to allow the inner thoughts to be perceived as an external ( or with external) reality........


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OfflineSurf Bum
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Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: Xibalba]
    #592882 - 03/29/02 03:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

about mushrooms being poison is bullshit, i've had many of my friends argue with me to no end about mushrooms being a poison "thats why you trip", if its a poison wouldn't a high dose kill you, well obviously i'm not dead, so obviously its not a poison, as in poison being something that is toxic to the human body, so don't go around spreading this ignorant rumor about the chemical in shrooms is a poison thats why you trip bullshit,...just had to get that out, i get tired of dumbass' not thinking


--------------------



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: Surf Bum]
    #592900 - 03/29/02 04:13 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Shrooms... poison... hehehe. Poison in that they kill the ego, maybe. Poison in that they have this weird tendency to destroy the "dumbass" pathways. Other than that, shrooms being poisonous is about as stupid as the myth of there being "strychnine in LSD".


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: Kremlin]
    #592955 - 03/29/02 05:43 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

There is no such thing as a poison, merely the wrong dosage.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: Surf Bum]
    #592983 - 03/29/02 06:10 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I't's interesting, but most reference books on mushrooms list the Psilocybe/Stropharia species as "poisonous," for the obvious reason that if someone ate some, expecting it to be merely a food for the body, they'd get a very unpleasant surprise (most people don't want to be dosed unawares of getting dosed). The truly dangerous mushrooms in the Amanita and Gallerina families are listed as "deadly poisonous," which they are. The confusion arises, it would seem, around the word 'inTOXICation,' which does in fact mean 'a condition of being toxic.' Intoxication does mean poisoned, but it also means inebriation. Inebriation, however (one of Albert Hofmann's words in a personal letter I received from him) does not necessarily mean poisoned. Alcohol intoxication, for example, can kill you, while Psilocybin intoxication can make you vomit, but I've never heard of anyone being poisoned to death by this.
Just trying to help clarify a bit.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Anonymous

Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: Kremlin]
    #593007 - 03/29/02 06:27 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Mushrooms are a poison to the mind as Aikido is combative to an opponent.

Kremlin:
"The problem then becomes that if you realize things about society, how do you
incorporate them into your normal perception of life if you dont fully accept it"


Perhaps it is time to expand or modify your normal conceptual model of life instead of
trying to make new experiences fit to concepts that were developed with less knowledge
or experience. I know that my concepts of the universe are incomplete and have to
be adjusted from time to time. Reality doesn't change but more information becomes
available and better models need to be developed.

Sometimes our old ways of thinking have to be thrown out even though they may have
served us well for many years. Think of Newtonian Physics versus Einstein's model, now
Quantum Physics has emerged. Each model works and works well within the knowledge
base upon which it was developed, but falls short when applied to the next level.


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Invisiblelowrider
ridin high
Registered: 03/28/02
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Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: Kremlin]
    #593513 - 03/30/02 10:57 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

About drugs and reality, chemicals shape our reality. All of the things we percieve are via chemicals and neurons firing in our brain.

A mother breastfeeds her child. Oxytocin is released, creating a strong bond the mother feels for the child. Your girlfriend is having a hormonal storm (PMS) which causes life to be miserable. If you had no chemicals in your brain you would be braindead. So how is a drug induced experience any less valid or real than a non-drug induced experience. Reality is, after all, subjective.


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Offlinepsilo25
The one stuck inthe middle ofthis hopelessmess.

Registered: 03/03/02
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Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: lowrider]
    #593988 - 03/30/02 10:13 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I too have often found myself questioning the validity of psychedelics as a way of seeing the truth. I find myself thinking "why am I ingesting these mindfucking chemicals? Aren't they gonna mess up the chemical balances in my brain? And isn't it possible that all these 'realizations' are just illusions created by a drugged state?". However, I have managed to pull some of my "realizations" back into reality after my trips. This shows me that pyschedelics can be a doorway to deeper perceptions. But they also need to be used responsibly. They can't be your sole source for answers. The answers are within, not in the drugs. For some time, I have heavily used psychedelics over short periods of time, thinking that they can give me all the answers. But, of course, that is rediculous. Drugs can only show you what is already within you.


--------------------
Stand up for your freedoms, join the fight against the War on Drugs!

www.drcnet.org
www.drugpolicyalliance.org
www.drugsense.org


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: Sclorch]
    #594077 - 03/31/02 12:07 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

" Other than that, shrooms being poisonous is about as stupid as the myth of there being 'strychnine in LSD'. "

Or rat poison. LOL.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Edited by fireworks_god (03/31/02 12:11 AM)


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OfflineSherlockDrubu
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Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #594142 - 03/31/02 01:25 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

" Other than that, shrooms being poisonous is about as stupid as the myth of there being 'strychnine in LSD'. "

Or rat poison. LOL.



strychnine = rat poison


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InvisibleJellric
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Registered: 11/08/98
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Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: Kremlin]
    #596211 - 04/02/02 08:21 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Both.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: Kremlin]
    #597968 - 04/03/02 10:20 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Ok, first off i was not spreading bullshit about it being a poison, i was afterall asking a question....

And, this post was made the day after my parents were bitching at me all day about drug use/shroom use in general.

Im simply asking that since it is something that makes you hallucinate, can you accept it as something that is real or something that is induced.

Im at a hard point in my life right now, struggling with these questions, having people tell me that drugs are bad all around me, and me and my friends trying to stand up for the benefits...but now i find myself questioning them myself...i need some good reasons!!


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: Kremlin]
    #597971 - 04/03/02 10:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

And again, if shrooms do not poison you at all ( i dont mean a lethal poison, alchohol is a poison, is it not? Taking a bit doesnt kill you ), what is it about them that makes you trip, id like any concrete info please...both my parents were shooting "Oh my god, not shrooms, those things ruin your mind and they change your brain forever".


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Shrooms: Induced or true? [Re: Kremlin]
    #598078 - 04/04/02 12:45 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Wouldn't try converting your parents Kremlin!

Psilocybin comes in at 642 in the toxicity league, aspirin comes in at around 216. Can't really call it a poison.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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