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Offlineackmess
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Registered: 06/09/06
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about substrate and potency. something to ponder...
    #5894274 - 07/24/06 12:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

from what I have read the general consenus is that mushies grown on BRF are generally less potent than ones grown using other subtrates (WBS, rye, corn).

my question is about mixing spawn with hpoo. would BRF spawned hpoo be less potent than WBS spawned to hpoo? or rye to hpoo? or does hpoo give the same potency no matter what kind of spawn one mixes it with?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: about substrate and potency. something to ponder... [Re: ackmess]
    #5894298 - 07/24/06 01:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You don't find any experienced growers making the claim that brf produces less potent mushrooms, only new growers who haven't yet learned that potency varies from substrain to substrain and flush to flush regardless of substrate. BRF spawns just fine to horse manure, coir, straw, whatever.
RR


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: about substrate and potency. something to ponder... [Re: ackmess]
    #5894324 - 07/24/06 01:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ackmess said:
from what I have read the general consenus is that mushies grown on BRF are generally less potent than ones grown using other subtrates (WBS, rye, corn).





that's not really the general consensus if you look harder. its usually inexperienced folks make lots of claims drawing on... limited experience. things vary so much between grows its really hard to pinpoint any particular factor as contributing.

Quote:


my question is about mixing spawn with hpoo. would BRF spawned hpoo be less potent than WBS spawned to hpoo? or rye to hpoo? or does hpoo give the same potency no matter what kind of spawn one mixes it with?




the difference would be there, but be close to negligible. when you spawn to hpoo, most of your substrate is hpoo... so it really depends on your poo, rather than what you used to spawn in the first place. the other factors (primarily strain selection) plays a bigger role than worrying about such a small difference in your substrate composition.


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Offlineackmess
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Re: about substrate and potency. something to ponder... [Re: creamcorn]
    #5894364 - 07/24/06 01:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I see...thanks for clearing that up.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: about substrate and potency. something to ponder... [Re: ackmess]
    #5896515 - 07/25/06 12:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> things vary so much between grows its really hard to pinpoint any particular factor as contributing.

That's true. That fact tends to obscure the fact the substrate DOES affect potency.

> You don't find any experienced growers making the claim that brf produces less potent mushrooms, only new growers

Ah... RR is up on one of his favorite soapboxes again I see. Sorry RR, even though you have far more experience than probably anyone else here, you are wrong. And what's worse is that you seem to repeatedly fall into the dishonest tactic of saying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is inexperienced and doesn't know what they are talking about.

There are several very experienced growers here who do believe that substrate affects potency. I know you are aware of them, so it's very disturbing to see you ripping on them.

The fact is that substrate DOES affect potency. That's not speculation, it's proven fact. I hate to see you spreading disinformation like this RR because you have a lot of knowledge to share and it denigrates your credibility to refuse to accept this.

The experiences I have had make me quite certain that rye produces mushrooms significantly more potent than BRF. We could continue to argue and speculate based on such subjective opinions and experiences, but it's not necessary because others HAVE done the research required to establish the potency vs substrate issue beyond doubt.

I refer you to the following article. I have this on hand if anyone is unable to get it through standard means.

The relationship of carbon and nitrogen nutrition of Psilocybe baeocystis to the production of psilocybin and its analogs.
Lloydia. 1969 Mar;32(1):66-71.
Leung AY, Paul AG.

That paper clearly demonstrates a relationship between nutrition and potency. It doesn't directly cover growth on solid mediums or using standard standard substrates, but it does establish a relationship.

For research done on actual commonly used substrates I refer you to the following article.

Nutritional Influences on Growth and Psychedelic Biosynthesis
Psychedelic Monographs and Essays Volume 6
C.B. Gold

C.B. Gold is the only person AFAIK to have actually tested mushrooms grown on different substrates. His conclusion is that is DOES have an effect on potency. If you're interested in his methods I refer you to the following link.

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_article2.shtml


So as you can see, the people who have actually done the research on this issue are of the opinion that substrate affects potency. The experienced growers here split on the issue. Contrary to what RR would have you believe, there is no consensus on this issue amongst the experienced here. However the science is clear on the issue substrate affects potency!

You are what you eat, and the same is true of mushrooms. Nutrition affects all life and this should be apparent to people with even the most basic knowledge of the cultivation of anything.


-FF


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InvisibleTippinthru
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Re: about substrate and potency. something to ponder... [Re: fastfred]
    #5896564 - 07/25/06 12:19 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Someone once did a grow on Uncle Ben's precooked rice.

As I recall, the potency was zero.

That says something.

But, in general RR is right, and so are you.

The variables are so wide, about anything can result.

Generally, optimal strains, conditions, spawn, substrate, casing will get you potent shrooms.

But, not always, due to some variable.

Just like gardening.
Optimal everything, will most often produce optimal crops.
But, not always, due to some variable.


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: about substrate and potency. something to ponder... [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5897345 - 07/25/06 07:51 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

yeah... its obviously wrong to say there's no effect.  if a substrate is lacking in a certain way, it can hurt potency.  therefore using an optimal substrate in combination with a good substrain gives you the best shot at producing potency.

if the mushrooms don't get what they need, there will be low potency.  if they get what they need (and assuming a good substrain) there will be normal potency.  that doesn't mean giving them MORE of what they need turns in to extra potency.  its like the white rice example...

analogy, if you're deficient in a certain vitamin it can lead to a health condition.  if you get your 100% RDA that health condition may be resolved.  taking a super suppliment that gives you 3000% RDA, just results in really yellow piss.  :smile:  your body can only use so much so quickly, and it only needs so much.  the extra is waste...

usually these potency posts are people looking for a magic potion to give MORE... but you simply won't get more than the mushroom wants to produce... you might notice a difference by adding more of something because you were previously deficient in it

but in the case of this post different spawn materials matter little, because variances in spawn types are going to be greatly dimished by the fact they're only a fraction of the total sub, its the bulk sub to look towards.  using that white rice example, i bet you could spawn it to hpoo and see an undetectible difference in potency results as brf, wbs, or rye spawned to hpoo, even if white rice alone consistently produces bunk crops.


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OfflineCapless
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Re: about substrate and potency. something to ponder... [Re: creamcorn]
    #5897402 - 07/25/06 08:20 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I like what you said Creamcorn.

I think its best to say that the veriants between certain grains may be so small that it isn't worth squabbling over. If you birth any grain to Hpooh it will probably be just as potent as the next.

However if you're doing a PF-tek type procedure with only grain, then potency might become an issue.

However all of the above is just speculation on my part.


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Embrace this moment. Remember, We are eternal.
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OfflineMLBjammer
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Re: about substrate and potency. something to ponder... [Re: Capless]
    #5897442 - 07/25/06 08:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I've tried just about every substrate and really found no significant difference in potency between any of them. The shrooms from the PF cakes were about as strong as the hpoo shrooms, etc. But I do agree that if you have an insufficient substrate, that can hurt the potency. It's just a shame that because of society's laws mycology remains a mostly underground science. Maybe some day . . .


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: about substrate and potency. something to ponder... [Re: MLBjammer]
    #5898270 - 07/25/06 01:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I found rye to be significantly better than BRF. The potency difference can be quite pronounced.


-FF


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Registered: 07/17/05
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Re: about substrate and potency. something to ponder... [Re: fastfred]
    #5898340 - 07/25/06 02:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I have found significant differences in my limited experience...


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Offlinescarymidgets
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Re: about substrate and potency. something to ponder... [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5898435 - 07/25/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

add some kelp meal an tell me that the potency was the same without.

heat light substrates and time effect the potency lease in my humble opinion


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