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Offlinebrainfreezer187
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Coir as Bulk substrate Faq??
    #5890106 - 07/23/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I was using hpoo but now i cant risk losing another batch do to HPoo so i am looking to get started right away on using coir as a bulk sub. can anyone point me in the direction of the FAQ i can use to read about it. Or some kind of directions to mix the spawn to the coir. Thank you


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InvisiblePinhead
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: brainfreezer187]
    #5890138 - 07/23/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I've heard using a little bit of used coffee grounds in your coir is good. I beleive that a little bit of oyster shell or gypsum is a good idea also.


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OfflineHarvestTheBrain
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: Pinhead]
    #5890148 - 07/23/06 10:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)



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OfflineYamidude
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: HarvestTheBrain]
    #5890185 - 07/23/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

YES, you can use coir as a substrate to spawn too. I did. Just add a little bit of coffee grounds in it and go.. It colonizes insanely fast.


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Offlinebrainfreezer187
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: Yamidude]
    #5890217 - 07/23/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yamidude did you sterilze the coir before you mix it? if so what did you do just mic it like you would for a casing layer? Fresh grounds? and also what ratio between spawn and sub? Thank you


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: brainfreezer187]
    #5890251 - 07/23/06 11:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Ok brainfreezermurdernumber. Here's some answers to your ?'s:

You can sterilize the coir if you want, I do a microwave pastuerization...

Hydrate coir with coffee/water mix or just water, squeeze excess water out, slap it in a microwaveable dish, cover with seran wrap (you can use an oven bag for this step as well). Microwave for 3 minutes, wait 15 minutes, microwave for 3 minutes, wait 15 minutes, microwave for 3 minutes and let it cool. If you're going to use coffee grounds and already have some that have been used, use those before you use fresh grounds. You can safely do a 1:4 ratio, just like with poop.

After it has colonized (usually within 3 days), go ahead and case it with peat/verm.

VOILA!


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Offlineabsinthoman
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5890288 - 07/23/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Will it work great with a coir/straw plus coffee ground and oyster shells inoculated with an LC???What ratio of coir/straw should be used???
and after the pasteurization what are the chances of contamination compared to a rye substrate??


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: absinthoman]
    #5890299 - 07/23/06 12:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

There is no need for straw here. The coir is already loose and fluffy and holds a lot of water, not to mention colonizes lightning quick. I wouldn't recommend using straw with coir.

I think you're comparing apples to oranges though, because you're assuming that you can use pastuerized coir as a standard substrate. If you wanted to use Coir in your jars as your regular substrate, you'd have to pressure cook it, probably add grains or BRF to it, and get the moisture content perfectly correct. Which would all be a complicated process, but you're welcome to try it.

As far as using it as a bulk substrate, it works very well.


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Offlinebrainfreezer187
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5890302 - 07/23/06 12:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks a lot i am going to try it out tomm>


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InvisibleSpookerShroom
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: brainfreezer187]
    #5890326 - 07/23/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

if you have any problems get ahold of creamcorn, I think he likes coir as a bulk sub quite a bit.


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Offlinebrainfreezer187
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: brainfreezer187]
    #5890327 - 07/23/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

One last ? do you have to case these or can i just use the RR wax paper method? Thank you


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: brainfreezer187]
    #5890348 - 07/23/06 12:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You don't have to case, but of course it's highly recommended. A casing is much more forgiving when it comes to humidity and moisture content. Not to mention it makes way for an awesome pinset.

But of course, that _IS_ a choice you can make.


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Offlinebrainfreezer187
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5890382 - 07/23/06 12:29 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Also how is the potency on these shrooms as opposed to the Hpoo because the Hpoo they are pretty potent i was wondering what i could expect out of the coir. I was reading another thread and they said that it gets worse as the casing hits 2nd and 3rd flush. But Agar said that was because of low levels of N so is that why you put the coffee grounds in? Thanks for the help


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: brainfreezer187]
    #5890416 - 07/23/06 12:42 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Coir has nutrients comparable to Hpoo. And yes, that's why coffee grounds are put in. I'm sure you could also use kelp meal or blood meal as well, but I use coffee grounds, because I have a huge pile of them in my kitchen every morning :P


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OfflineYamidude
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5890526 - 07/23/06 01:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

im pc'ing another large batch of Coir and coffee grounds right this second. I have two cakes and a jar of WBS im going to make into two casing.. All 5 of my Hpoo casings had cobweb this morning when i checked them. I went with some 3% H2o2 misting on the affected areas and i checked them a little bit ago and the cobweb has disappeared.. I thank RR for his past posts on the issue

My coir casing has had not problems and is colonizing the casing material now.


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Offlinebrainfreezer187
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: Yamidude]
    #5890563 - 07/23/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

what do you mean pc'ing more coir? I thought you could just mic it instead of pressure cooking?
Thanks


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OfflineYamidude
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: brainfreezer187]
    #5890567 - 07/23/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

brainfreezer187 said:
what do you mean pc'ing more coir? I thought you could just mic it instead of pressure cooking?
Thanks


I prefer to pc it. It's what's worked for me already..


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: Yamidude]
    #5890577 - 07/23/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You're not supposed to PC bulk substrates. If you sterilize, cobweb and the green molds will have little trouble colonizing your substrate before the mushroom mycelium can. Remember, pasteurize bulk substrates such as straw, coir, coffee grinds, manure etc., by heating to 140F to 170F for an hour. That means the interior of the bag or jar needs to be maintained at those temperatures for an hour. Whatever method you use, stick a meat thermometer into the center of the substrate to monitor temps until you get your system worked out.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineYamidude
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5890586 - 07/23/06 01:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
You're not supposed to PC bulk substrates. If you sterilize, cobweb and the green molds will have little trouble colonizing your substrate before the mushroom mycelium can. Remember, pasteurize bulk substrates such as straw, coir, coffee grinds, manure etc., by heating to 140F to 170F for an hour. That means the interior of the bag or jar needs to be maintained at those temperatures for an hour. Whatever method you use, stick a meat thermometer into the center of the substrate to monitor temps until you get your system worked out.
RR




Well i know you know your stuff but i pc'ed my coir on the last casing i made and it fully colonized in 2 days with zero contams. However the tenn studd Hpoo that i got pre-pasturized gave me cobweb on all 5 casings..


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5890598 - 07/23/06 01:42 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

By the way, I'm no believer in microwaving substrates either. If you heat beyond 170f, you're partially sterilizing and you'll have the same problems PC'ing will cause. A few minutes in the microwave will easily exceed that temperature, killing off beneficial bacteria that will help your substrate resist attack by harmful thermophilic bacteria and molds. I pasteurize in quart jars after first mixing the ingredients and bringing to field moisture capacity. I posted my procedure for it somewhere in this forum previously.

Coir is relatively low in calcium, so it can really benefit from the addition of gypsum at the rate of up to 5% to 10% by volume the amount of dry coir.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: Yamidude]
    #5890611 - 07/23/06 01:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

microwaving is definitely plenty safe.  RR mentioned in another thread somewhere the other day it can be used it simply by adding water and taking no steps to pasteurize/sterilize.

I got curious myself just now, and looking on wikipedia's coir entry they mention this: "In horticulture, coir is recommended as substitute for peat because it is free of bacteria and fungal spores"... they don't elaborate as to how that could possibly be... but whatever.  Makes sense that its so dried out when they compress that any bacteria present would die, and any mold/fungal spores that might be in there would be totally dehydrated as well, meaning that when you add fresh vigorous spawn its probably most of the way done colonizing by the time any of the contam spores within the coir are even hydrated/germinated and don't stand a chance.  It could also be one of those "selective" things, perhaps coir is just right for feeding mycelium but not so good for feeding other contams (sort of like cardboard, if you've ever taken a look at the cardboard cloning teks you can be pretty lax there, carboard simply won't harbor most contams yet mycelium just love it.)

Just goofing around I've left some damp coir laying out to see what would happen.  I threw it out just now actually after a few weeks... not a spot of mold anywhere.  It did smell a little "off" so there coulda been some bacteria living in it, but it wasn't a horribly strong smell by any means.

I think its a good idea to do *something* (either sterilize or pasteurize) if you're going to be tossing other additives in there like coffee grounds.  I'm going to give it a shot without pasteurizing/sterilizing at all just to see what happens.  Who knows, if it works consistently that could make it even easier yet to use since that'd be one less step to prepare it :thumbup:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: Yamidude]
    #5890615 - 07/23/06 01:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Yamidude said:
i pc'ed my coir on the last casing i made and it fully colonized in 2 days with zero contams.




Better wait until it fruits to make that claim my friend. Any substrate that colonizes in two days is mold, not mushroom mycelium. No mushroom mycelium I've ever seen will colonize a bulk substrate in less than five to six days, not even the very rapidly growing Ganoderma lucidum. PC'ing bulk substrates is a mistake.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineYamidude
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5890616 - 07/23/06 01:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

yeah i might get some gypsum and give it a shot adding 5% or so. Im making two casings today exactly the same way that i made another earlier this week. The earlier one colonized in 2 days and is doing great..

im doing Just coir with a little coffee grounds with 2 half pint cakes of B+ and another batch with a WBS pint jar.


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OfflineYamidude
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5890619 - 07/23/06 01:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Yamidude said:
i pc'ed my coir on the last casing i made and it fully colonized in 2 days with zero contams.




Better wait until it fruits to make that claim my friend. Any substrate that colonizes in two days is mold, not mushroom mycelium. No mushroom mycelium I've ever seen will colonize a bulk substrate in less than five to six days, not even the very rapidly growing Ganoderma lucidum. PC'ing bulk substrates is a mistake.
RR





doesn't look like mold to me RR.


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5890624 - 07/23/06 01:50 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Yamidude said:
i pc'ed my coir on the last casing i made and it fully colonized in 2 days with zero contams.




Better wait until it fruits to make that claim my friend. Any substrate that colonizes in two days is mold, not mushroom mycelium. No mushroom mycelium I've ever seen will colonize a bulk substrate in less than five to six days, not even the very rapidly growing Ganoderma lucidum. PC'ing bulk substrates is a mistake.
RR




I've had coir colonize nearly close to that, and it fruited wonderfully. Small casings granted, and keeping the spawn ratio high, like 1:1, takes no time at all.


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OfflineYamidude
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: creamcorn]
    #5890626 - 07/23/06 01:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

mine was 1:1.5 almost..


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OfflineYamidude
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: Yamidude]
    #5891135 - 07/23/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well i just pc'ed two batches of coir and Mic pasturized one batch. I may do a true pasturization on a batch later this week. I labled the mic nuked batch and the pc'ed batches so we can see if thse two techniques do anything different. Same spawn material. 1 pf cake to 1.25 pints of coir for the two experimental batches.. and one batch with a pint of WBS to 2.5 pints coir..


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: Yamidude]
    #5891432 - 07/23/06 04:52 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Bear in mind, when I said it takes six days minimum for coir to colonize, I was referring to using it as a bulk substrate. Mixing it at one to one or even two to one really is still an extremely small substrate and shouldn't be considered as bulk. To get performance from any bulk substrate, use them at three or four to one, and with straw, you'll need to go ten to one to have much success.

If you're going to use it at one to one, you can easily skip any form of heat treating. Just use a bit of lime and up to ten percent gypsum and go for it.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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OfflineYamidude
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Re: Coir as Bulk substrate Faq?? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5891503 - 07/23/06 05:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Bear in mind, when I said it takes six days minimum for coir to colonize, I was referring to using it as a bulk substrate. Mixing it at one to one or even two to one really is still an extremely small substrate and shouldn't be considered as bulk. To get performance from any bulk substrate, use them at three or four to one, and with straw, you'll need to go ten to one to have much success.

If you're going to use it at one to one, you can easily skip any form of heat treating. Just use a bit of lime and up to ten percent gypsum and go for it.
RR


good info. Since im in the trial phase of my coir experience im starting with just small casings of it right now. I did do one just a minute ago with about 1:4 wbs to coir. If all are sucessfull im going to start stretching it out more and more.

Im just experimenting around right now to get more experience and increase my knowledge.


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