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stormhalter
full metalalchemist

Registered: 07/10/06
Posts: 175
Loc: Behind you.
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: FooMan]
#5887192 - 07/22/06 10:54 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'd like to say I started out on the PF Tek method, and I have to agree with Fred. When you learn how to swim, you don't jump into the deep end. You start shallow and walk your way there and learn to swim so you don't drown.
My PF Tek is going splendid and I'm excited that I get to learn Mycology from the ground up. I have a chance to witness the growth process and know what to look for, as Iamtheloser had mentioned.
Stay basic and work your way up man. Einstein didn't jump straight to the atom bomb, he worked his way towards it. (:
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liamtheloser
Advanced Idiot

Registered: 06/07/06
Posts: 1,453
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: stormhalter]
#5887237 - 07/22/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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As I've said before, I'm extremely brilliant and have gigantic huevos.
I recommended the PFtek, because this person obviously hasn't read up too much on cultivating mushrooms.
The PFtek is the best tek to get your feet wet in (kinda ties into your swimming analogy). If I hadn't been doing pftek for several years before even knowing about whole grains and spawning and casing, I would probably have really wanted to do grains first, but I would have shit all over myself and regretted every second of it... My first time on grains was bad enough I had so many questions to ask, but no one to ask them to, then I found this place and while my first set of grains was failing, I was reading NONSTOP all the grain teks, all the spawning teks, all the casing teks, all the FAQs, etc etc. And I was already an experienced PF caker.
So all I have to say, is if you want to be happy for the rest of your life... never make a pretty woman your wife. So from my personal point of view, get an ugly chick to marry you.
Amen.
Oh, and stormhalter: 'Einstein didn't jump straight to the atom bomb' -> Killaz is no einstein... but I am!
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: stormhalter]
#5887239 - 07/22/06 11:19 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
stormhalter said: I'd like to say I started out on the PF Tek method, and I have to agree with Fred. When you learn how to swim, you don't jump into the deep end. You start shallow and walk your way there and learn to swim so you don't drown.
My PF Tek is going splendid and I'm excited that I get to learn Mycology from the ground up. I have a chance to witness the growth process and know what to look for, as Iamtheloser had mentioned.
Stay basic and work your way up man. Einstein didn't jump straight to the atom bomb, he worked his way towards it. (:
So basically you are doing your first grow and giving out advice on what not to do when you have no experience with it your self? 
I agree you have to walk before you run. You should also try something before advising others against it.
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Quick WBS Prep
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stormhalter
full metalalchemist

Registered: 07/10/06
Posts: 175
Loc: Behind you.
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: FooMan]
#5887347 - 07/22/06 12:08 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well FooMan, some advice is better than none.
I was simply sharing my experiences so far with another first time grower, and letting him know that it is not a bad idea (as it has not been for me so far) to start from the ground up. He was advised to avoid the PF Tek which is a basic foundation of growing and can teach you much, as opposed to jumping straight to casing.
So I'd appreciate it if you relaxed off me, thanks. (:
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: stormhalter]
#5889267 - 07/22/06 11:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Saying the advanced teks are as easy as the PF tek is like saying that calculus is as easy as algebra.
If you gave me one of those gay ass width of a sidewalk around a basketball court problems I could solve it far easier with calculus than with algebra. But that's after a year of college level math. A noob would be stuck using the guess and check method, while I would write the equation, find the derivative and then solve for X. I would be able to find the answer much quicker and more easily, but I don't think many people would say that calculus is easier than algebra.
-FF
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hawksapprentice
Yearns to Snowboard


Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 3,195
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: fastfred]
#5889557 - 07/23/06 01:43 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well it really isn't related to a guess and check method whatsoever. There are teks that spell out exactly how to do grains. And Rye is a great grain to go with.
People in this thread are saying that grains are harder. Why? Because of moisture content? You can mess that up just as easily in PF tek. As stated earlier, it seems most people have trouble with grains because they don't follow the tek to a "T". Just as you should follow a PF tek to the "T".
All these analogies are fairly pointless. If this guy just sticks to the teks, does them exactly he should have no problems. Sure it's possible that he could have some issues, but the chances are the same if he uses PF. It's all perspective, if you believe that you are going to fail, then you are just setting yourself up for failure and will more than likely. Have some confidence I'm your self and your ability to follow directions.
You guys act like he wont be able to follow directions well. I say go with what you feel you can accomplish. If that's PF cool, go for it. But if you think that you have the comprehension to follow some direction exactly and don't deviate from them, you should do just fine.
-------------------- "I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all. never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say." Edward Abbey
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: hawksapprentice]
#5889612 - 07/23/06 02:22 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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> the chances are the same if he uses PF.
No, a noobs chances are MUCH better with the PF tek. One of the main reasons is that there are many less steps, and several fewer points where contamination can occur.
> You guys act like he wont be able to follow directions well.
It's not like you're telling someone that if they've done a lot of reading and have a good understanding of everything they're reading and have read a lot of posts and understand the pitfalls that they can skip the PF tek. You're telling someone who has already attempted and probably failed a harder tek.
If were trying to tell someone that they can "get away with" skipping the PF tek that would be one thing. But to tell people that it's better to skip it is just plain foolish.
-FF
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: fastfred]
#5889639 - 07/23/06 02:39 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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> And Rye is a great grain to go with.
That's true.
> Well it really isn't related to a guess and check method whatsoever.
I wasn't comparing anything to the guess and check method, I was comparing calculus and algebra to advanced teks vs. PF tek. I wasn't trying to say that either one was like a guess-and-check method. My point was that you can argue that calculus is easier and actually have a good point, but it only applies after you've learned algebra AND calculus.
For example if you and I both tried to solve the sidewalk around a basketball court problem using guess and check algebra we would probably take about the same time and have about the same chance of getting the right answer. [Granted that's being very generous in my analysis of your math skills] On the other hand if we both tried to use calculus I would quickly have the answer while you would fail completely to achieve any answer at all. If we were to pit my calculus against your algebra, I would solve the problem more easily, but you would likely get the same answer just with more difficulty.
That makes the perfect analogy to the PF tek vs bulk grain teks. You would be far more likely to solve the problem by reading an algebra book than you would be by reading a calculus book. You might be able to read a calculus book and get the right answer, but it's not as likely. While you can read all you want about calculus, I've actually done calculus and would get the right answer, while you would only have a chance of getting the right answer.
Now, the point of this is not to diss your math skills. I'm only assuming that you aren't a calculus master for the sake of argument. You may well be better at math than me, so don't take this post as an insult to your math prowess.
-FF
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liamtheloser
Advanced Idiot

Registered: 06/07/06
Posts: 1,453
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: fastfred]
#5889654 - 07/23/06 02:51 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm not exactly sure if I've said this yet... but I am smart... REALLY smart. And I have giant testicles. If you follow my advice, and ignore all of this arguing, you WILL be satisfied.
Do the PFtek, master the art of noob growing, and then jump into the river of grains. Seriously, I have the biggest balls of anyone I know, and I _STILL_ did the pftek for a long time. That _HAS_ to say something. Don't get me wrong, I love grains, all sorts of them... In my cereal, in my bread, in my substrate. But please, save everyone a lot of trouble and do the PFtek. You wont be disappointed.
I did cakes every once in a while for a few years, just for the fun of it, and it just so happened that a cake could get me high a couple times... That was fine for me. That should be fine for anyone just starting out, because obviously you aren't going to be able to grow mushrooms to supply your entire city if you're just starting out... and frankly, I'd be quite disappointed if that were your goal in the first place. For someone who wants to have a good time, the PFtek will provide everything you ever wished. Grains to bulk is for someone who not only wants to get themselves lifted, but also a few close friends. I started going bulk because I want to do more work, less time, and less frequently. IE, I get 30 doses instead of 3, and I only have to do it for a month out of the year...
All of this back and forth shit between hawknuts and fastfloosie are getting my panties wrinkled pretty hard. Seriously, I have gigantic nuts and I'm not afraid to use them. Also my brain is large too.
-- L-i am the loser.
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: liamtheloser]
#5889669 - 07/23/06 03:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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> I have the biggest balls of anyone I know,
> I did cakes every once in a while for a few years, just for the fun of it,
I think maybe those "huevos grande" have gone to your head and distorted your sense of time. Weren't you just jumping for joy about your first PF tek grow about a month or two ago?
> Grains to bulk is for someone who not only wants to get themselves lifted, but also a few close friends.
Yeah, like 50 of your very closest friends.
Seriously, I like your posts, but you might want to have those big balls checked out. It might be some sort of glandular problem.
-FF
-------------------- It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed "If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP) I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid
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liamtheloser
Advanced Idiot

Registered: 06/07/06
Posts: 1,453
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: fastfred]
#5889670 - 07/23/06 03:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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nope, i was jumping for joy about my first GRAIN->CASING about a month ago
PS. my glands are fine, they're just really huge and manly.
PSS the way i got into the whole mushroom cult thing is through an old dirty fucking hippie bastard mentor. He swore up and down about his methods, only I found a website (the shroomery) that totally bested his most advanced methods (which turned out to be called PF tek). Ever since then, i've totally sworn off cakes and have switched to all grain.
But hey! whatevs :P
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hawksapprentice
Yearns to Snowboard


Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 3,195
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: liamtheloser]
#5889770 - 07/23/06 05:33 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm done arguing with you.
Man, do what you feel comfortable with. If you want to do PF do PF. If you want to stick with grains do it, and do it to the "T".
-------------------- "I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all. never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say." Edward Abbey
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UnderNose
all out of bubble gum


Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 1,612
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: hawksapprentice]
#5889775 - 07/23/06 05:43 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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grain rules, I've had 99% success rate with grain, my first grow was cased grain which got me over 200 dry grams of Z-strain. Now in the process of Grain spawned to bulk enriched coir.(I don't have any poo )
I tried cakes once, just looked like what you would do if you had no space or supplies. IMO not enough shroom, not enough control over nutrients.
-------------------- LAGM 2.022  
Edited by UnderNose (07/23/06 06:05 AM)
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baltazar
Quiet dreamer

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 746
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: UnderNose]
#5889782 - 07/23/06 06:01 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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IMO popcorn worked allways very well
Edited by baltazar (06/21/11 02:45 AM)
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: stormhalter]
#5889815 - 07/23/06 07:15 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
stormhalter said: Well FooMan, some advice is better than none.
I was simply sharing my experiences so far with another first time grower, and letting him know that it is not a bad idea (as it has not been for me so far) to start from the ground up. He was advised to avoid the PF Tek which is a basic foundation of growing and can teach you much, as opposed to jumping straight to casing.
So I'd appreciate it if you relaxed off me, thanks. (:
No advice? I gave mine. Listen up rookie, my point is you're doing your FIRST grow and saying, "well, I agree with Fred... blah, blah, blah" when the fact is you have NO experience with grains. How the fuck are you going to recommend the PF tek over using grains when you've never used grains before? Then you say "well I'm learning from the ground up"- Bullshit! Guess what? Myc growing in a jar of WBS it the same as myc growing in a PF jar, so the idea that the PF tek is better for learning the growth process has no merit.
That's great that the PF tek is working good for you It worked great for me too! My point is that whole grains are just as easy to work with, especially when spawned to a bulk substrate and will OWN the PF tek. How do I know this? I've done it and can give an informed opinion. (check gallery for some credentials).
It's disappointing to see Fred comparing using grains to calculus and making them seem like rocket science. This is why newbs, like YOU fear using grains their first go around. Again, if you follow directions, grains are very easy.
Stormy, I'll relax off you now.... until you start spouting off about shit you know nothing about again.
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Quick WBS Prep
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killalaz
Stranger
Registered: 07/22/06
Posts: 12
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: stormhalter]
#5910237 - 07/28/06 09:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
stormhalter said: I'd like to say I started out on the PF Tek method, and I have to agree with Fred. When you learn how to swim, you don't jump into the deep end. You start shallow and walk your way there and learn to swim so you don't drown.
My PF Tek is going splendid and I'm excited that I get to learn Mycology from the ground up. I have a chance to witness the growth process and know what to look for, as Iamtheloser had mentioned.
Stay basic and work your way up man. Einstein didn't jump straight to the atom bomb, he worked his way towards it. (:
Einstein didn't actually make an atom bomb but that is besides the point. =] Thanks for all your advice guys I have decided to go ahead and do the PF tek I got 3 jars incubating right now and I am waiting on my new spore order (from ralphster) to do the rest. Since I still had some popcorn left I made one jar with popcorn just for fun! hehe I figured it coudln't hurt right? Anyway I agree that it is probably best to start from the ground up and learn the intricicies of the hobby. I have to say that besides the obvious result of magical fungus at the end this is a great hobby that teaches pateince and how to deal with dissapointment! Just another gift from the fungi gods!
EDIT: Can you not do the growing methods in the PF TEK exactly the same except subsitute grain for BRF?? This is what I have heard and I am considering using a grain based substrate for my second grow? Correct me if I am wrong because that is why I joined the shroomery to learn, not to pretend I am an expert.
Edited by killalaz (07/28/06 09:56 PM)
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: killalaz]
#5910407 - 07/28/06 10:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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> Can you not do the growing methods in the PF TEK exactly the same except subsitute grain for BRF?
Sure you can. Grain cakes probably won't hold together was well as BRF/verm though. It's also not as easy to fruit directly from grains since they retain nutrition longer into the growing cycle, hence the myc still has food and won't want to fruit as easily until it thinks it's consumed all the nutrients.
> My point is that whole grains are just as easy to work with,
Then your "point" is wrong. Grains are not as easy as PF tek because there are more steps involved and more chances for contamination, misunderstanding, errors, and failure. don't know why people keep trying to say that grains are just as easy as PF tek when they obviously aren't.
Your ripping on stormhalter is way out of line. Anyone who has read the PF tek and a grain tek is fully qualified to comment on which one is easier even if they've never grown anything at all before. A simple examination of the procedures will quickly show even a total noob which method is easier.
There are also dozens if not hundreds of grain teks, where as there is only one true PF tek. That simplifies things a lot right off the bat, before you even take a look at any of the teks. PF tek has also been time tested longer than any other tek and by more people.
If you want to get down to it and debate each and every step of the procedure and the chances for problems at each step then I will, but I think you already realize that the PF tek is simpler, easier, and more standardized than any other tek out there.
It's also plenty fine to just state your opinion and then debate facts and arguments or just move along. There's no call to start ripping on people and attacking their credentials.
-FF
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KaptKid
Spaced Pirate


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 6,252
Loc: Bright Side of the Sun
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: killalaz]
#5910606 - 07/28/06 11:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
killalaz said: EDIT: Can you not do the growing methods in the PF TEK exactly the same except subsitute grain for BRF?? This is what I have heard and I am considering using a grain based substrate for my second grow? Correct me if I am wrong because that is why I joined the shroomery to learn, not to pretend I am an expert.
You can use other grains to make flours in a coffee grinder. I've had very good success with rye grass seed.
-------------------- Child of the 60's, Tripping ever since.
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hawksapprentice
Yearns to Snowboard


Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 3,195
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
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Re: Still no sign of germination or mycellum [Re: fastfred]
#5910925 - 07/29/06 01:37 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
fastfred said:
It's also plenty fine to just state your opinion and then debate facts and arguments or just move along. There's no call to start ripping on people and attacking their credentials.
-FF
Take your own advice.
-------------------- "I celebrate the Earth, my home, my mother, my grave, and as long as men are Man they must, if they would preserve the integrated being, do the same---[and preserve]--this rank casual hungry smelly sweaty lusting transitory body, my oozy pulpy liquid-bag-swollen body, bones, blood, hair glands, my bejeweled sex; I love and celebrate it all. never to let men forget that they are animals as much as gods---that is one thing I shall say." Edward Abbey
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