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OfflineEFresh
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Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan)
    #5885621 - 07/21/06 08:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

O.k swim just picked up a bottle of the dietary supplement 5-HTP trytophan....he's heard of procedures were adding trytamine to the substrate can increase the amount of psilocybin found in cubensis mushrooms,,,he also knows that trytophan is a well known precurser to tryptamine...he's wondering if adding tryptophan to the substrate would have the same effect as adding tryptamine???


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: EFresh]
    #5885636 - 07/21/06 08:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Here we go again. . . .

If you'll scroll down, you'll see this has been covered hundreds of times. Read up on it.
RR


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OfflineEFresh
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: EFresh]
    #5885645 - 07/21/06 08:17 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Swims also read that mushrooms perform Decarboxylation... now with this trytophan substrate will the mushrooms turn the trytophan into trytamine(wich will make you very sick if you ingest it), turn the trytophan to trytamine then to Psilocybin, or turn the trytophan strait to Psilocybin???


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: EFresh]
    #5886441 - 07/22/06 01:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You really need to do some reading. There are several threads covering this in the first couple pages in advanced. Look at some of my posts, most of your questions are explained in good detail. Do a search of advanced with "fastfred" in the username box. I think I have around 3-4 threads in the last month or two on this topic.

This diagram might help you...


The simple answer to your question is NO. Tryptophan is highly regulated. You can't increase it much above it's normal level by substrate supplementation. It will probably help to some small extent, but not by much.


-FF


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OfflineAcinaxuz
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: fastfred]
    #5893940 - 07/24/06 10:15 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Basically EF--You'll receive minimal results, if you receive results at all.

In short, tryptophan doesn't work. Tryptamines have had some results only in HCL form--a watched chemical. TDC (Tryptophan Decarboxylase) is the best route and for the moment generally unattainable.


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OfflineWeebl8bob
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: Acinaxuz]
    #5898804 - 07/25/06 04:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

What if one used dried, powdered mushies as your substrate? O.o


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"You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug, especially when its waving a razor sharp hunting knife in your eye." - Hunter S. Thompson


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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: Weebl8bob]
    #5901980 - 07/26/06 01:57 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

are you suggesting the use of final product as raw material for another batch?


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OfflineWeebl8bob
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: shirley knott]
    #5905292 - 07/27/06 01:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yes.. yes i am O.o


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"You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug, especially when its waving a razor sharp hunting knife in your eye." - Hunter S. Thompson


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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: Weebl8bob]
    #5908953 - 07/28/06 01:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

then you are completely nuts!


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buh


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Offlinehippie_cune
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: shirley knott]
    #5909031 - 07/28/06 02:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

but would it yeild stronger mushrooms?


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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: hippie_cune]
    #5909155 - 07/28/06 02:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

why on earth should it?


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: shirley knott]
    #5909227 - 07/28/06 03:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:vineclimb:  :otd:  :nogame:  :banghead:


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: monstermitch]
    #5909471 - 07/28/06 04:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> but would it yeild stronger mushrooms?

Yes. Psilocin is even more easily incorporated into psilocybin than tryptamine.


-FF


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OfflineWeebl8bob
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: fastfred]
    #5910449 - 07/28/06 10:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I just figured that the already produced tryptamines would be absorbed by the mycelium and reused as needed or something idunno.. just shooting out ideas lol


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: Weebl8bob]
    #5910788 - 07/29/06 12:27 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You're right psilocin is well absorbed.



It's pretty foolish to use final product as feedstock for the next round though. It would be interesting to experiment with though, just for the sake of science. Or perhaps if you needed really potent shrooms for some reason. Maybe if there was a "Cubensis cup" or some competition of that nature.


-FF


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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: fastfred]
    #5911513 - 07/29/06 09:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Or perhaps a psilocybin/psilocin extraction performed on spent substrate/mycelium (though minimal content is available in comparison to the actual mushrooms) and then utilized as an ingredient in future tubs. For people who aren't dealing w/ contams and don't have access to outside gardens, this could be an interesting way of utilizing old substrate.


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OfflineWeebl8bob
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: cloudtop]
    #5913467 - 07/29/06 11:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Hmm.. Im going to give this a go as soon as I get a new set of jars for the winter season :-D


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"You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug, especially when its waving a razor sharp hunting knife in your eye." - Hunter S. Thompson


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OfflineFrappy
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: cloudtop]
    #5920349 - 07/31/06 11:02 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

using mushrooms as substrate for growing mushrooms would be counter productive even if it did work, and even if it made the mushrooms more potent. You'll probably just open yourself up to a greater possibility of contamination issues, but i'm not stopping you from trying. Go ahead and post back with your results.


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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: Frappy]
    #5921468 - 08/01/06 10:55 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You're saying, it would be counter productive...

>'even if it did work' ?
>'even if it made the mushrooms more potent' ?

How is that counter productive...you kinda just threw a double negative out there..


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OfflineLynxRufus
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: toole]
    #5923167 - 08/01/06 08:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

This is all very academic, but the fact that these chemicals readily break down under heat seems to have been missed. You will not succeed pasteurizing old substrates or mushrooms and spawning to them. Both of these will need to be sterilized for any chance of success. In other words, high heat and pressure (which would increase the effects of the heat) would necessarily negate any potential benefits from this idea.


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OfflineWeebl8bob
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: LynxRufus]
    #5923998 - 08/02/06 12:36 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i do believe psilocin and psilocybin decompose at around 240 centigrade.. if one were to use the stovetop method by placing the jars in boiling water... they would only reach 100C correct?


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"You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug, especially when its waving a razor sharp hunting knife in your eye." - Hunter S. Thompson


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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: Weebl8bob]
    #5924654 - 08/02/06 07:39 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You can't even reach 100C by placing something in boiling water.


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: fastfred]
    #5924938 - 08/02/06 10:20 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

and still even assuming it is 'decomposed' or 'broken down' due to the heat, this doesnt mean it goes away, its just changed into something else. apparently into something no longer psychoactive but not necessarily into something that's no longer a suitable precursor... i dont really know chemistry all that well so that could be way off base, but just a thought.


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Offlinebutane
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: creamcorn]
    #5931091 - 08/04/06 11:01 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It gets > 100C in a pressure cooker. How much more, I don't know, but significantly more. That's why there's pressure: to keep the water from boiling, so it can get hotter.


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"...but by and large it was a simple intoxication with most things seeming quite hilarious. The intoxication was also quite extreme."


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OfflineWeebl8bob
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: butane]
    #5934104 - 08/05/06 10:23 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Exactly why i said with this method we shouldnt consider pressure cooking but rather use boil water in a pot


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"You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug, especially when its waving a razor sharp hunting knife in your eye." - Hunter S. Thompson


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OfflineCerebro
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6248189 - 11/04/06 07:13 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I see a lot of threads relating to putting tryptamine analogues in their substrates but not even one about adding indole-3-butyric acid(IBA) into their growing media or any of the other "lesser" indoles. Maybe they are using the wrong indoles. IBA is found in mushrooms in small amounts. I believe it is because the shroom uses those smaller indole precursors to produce larger indoles(tryptamines). What do you think?


Edited by Cerebro (11/04/06 07:22 PM)


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: Cerebro]
    #6250618 - 11/05/06 04:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think that will do nothing. Active mushrooms are good at 4-hydroxylating indoles and tryptamines, but it's going to give different products.

You'll just end up with 4-hydroxylated or phosphorylated IBA. The carboxylic acid group is going to be reactive, so who knows what you'll end up with on that end. It would be an interesting experiment, but I would be careful. You never know what might turn out to be highly toxic.


-FF


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: fastfred]
    #6251405 - 11/05/06 08:41 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I'm still waiting for the talk to end and somebody do something. I've been watching this and other threads for years, but nobody has demonstrated that adding anything to the substrate will increase potency or that mushroom mycelium can convert one substance into another.

You can scroll down for thousands of posts and find this or similar threads repeated time and again. Will somebody please quit talking about it and just do it.
RR


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InvisibleToTheExtreme, LOL
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6252032 - 11/05/06 11:59 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think I may have a way to settle this debate. in one of my psychology classes my instructor mentioned that popcorn contains pretty high levels of tryptophan. I'm asking that anyone who uses popcorn spawn and has evidence that mushrooms grown on popcorn are more potent to come forward and shed some light on this.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: ToTheExtreme, LOL]
    #6252446 - 11/06/06 04:08 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Popcorn has the lowest levels of triptophan of any spawn material I know of. There's a chart around here somewhere that shows triptophan content of various grains. However, there's not one shred of evidence that triptophan in the substrate does anything at all. I've grown on a substrate of seaweed, which is extremely high and fruits were potent but no more potent than those grown on other substrates. I was on this triptophan bandwagon too a few years ago before I realized it really made no difference at all.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6252585 - 11/06/06 06:08 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

i cant see how anyobody actually WANTS to increase the potency.
im allright with what i grow and 2-3grams ALWAYS blew me off my socks.

no need to increase anything, oh and as roger said, people talk about adding this
and using that but noone really does it in the end .. guess that wont change
anytime soon either.


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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: ohmatic]
    #6252866 - 11/06/06 09:11 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah Ohm I think it was you and I having this same conversation about 2 years ago with ppl, they were getting crazy back then trying to fing anything with high lvls of tryptophans like egg whites and all other sorts of crazyness. I don't think anyone ever tried it back ten either, but i've been off the boards for about 2 years now hopefully i'm back. Still get on IRC much>?


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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: pinkfloydms]
    #6253191 - 11/06/06 11:14 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

sure man, drop by once again :smile:
i was like "wow pink posting didnt see that cat for sometime"


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Offlineeuphoricpoison
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: ohmatic]
    #6268157 - 11/10/06 07:59 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

That shit would be crazy though, and if it did work, would the spores of the shroom that was grown from the shroom substrate be just as potent?


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OfflineDelerium02
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: euphoricpoison]
    #6273584 - 11/11/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Just grow pans.


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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: Delerium02]
    #6273762 - 11/11/06 10:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Couldn't Swim just have search this web page :rolleyes:


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Edited by Brainiac (11/11/06 10:34 PM)


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OfflineSappyCS
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: Brainiac]
    #7891289 - 01/17/08 12:15 AM (16 years, 16 days ago)

My knowledge of chemistry is pretty limited, but as far as I know 4-HO-DMT and Psilocin are the same chemical, at least in an elementary sense, so wouldn't it be possible to extract the psilocin/psilocybin from a grow, find some method to remove the hydroxyl group, and put the resulting DMT in your substrate?

At the very least you could start throwing whole turkeys in vats of solution and ending up with a large amount of DMT.


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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: SappyCS]
    #7893128 - 01/17/08 01:42 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

1. By using the method you propose, you will of course get a SMALLER total amount of psilocin. Why not just keep the initial batch instead of extracting it?

2. Removing an aromatic hydroxyl group is non-trivial.

3. Turkeys does not contain an extraordinary amount of tryptophan compared to other food.


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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: euphoricpoison]
    #7893817 - 01/17/08 04:30 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

euphoricpoison said:
That shit would be crazy though, and if it did work, would the spores of the shroom that was grown from the shroom substrate be just as potent?



^If this worked, there would really be potential for this. Would be like potentiating all future grows.


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Offline2end4
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: Delerium02]
    #7894097 - 01/17/08 05:45 PM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Delerium02 said:
Just grow pans.




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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #7895907 - 01/18/08 01:51 AM (16 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I'm still waiting for the talk to end and somebody do something. I've been watching this and other threads for years, but nobody has demonstrated that adding anything to the substrate will increase potency or that mushroom mycelium can convert one substance into another.

You can scroll down for thousands of posts and find this or similar threads repeated time and again. Will somebody please quit talking about it and just do it.
RR




I tried using mushrooms as mushroom substrate.
ground mush and verm in a 3:1 ratio yielded no result when inoculated via spore syringe.
Jar 2 knocked with LC showed 25% growth before stalling.
Spawn (wbs) failed to colonize substrate (cube mushrooms) at all.

Noticed water content difficult to adjust with mushrooms as substrate.
Mushroom substrate (spawn attempt 1) seemed to have fermented during incubation (84.3F). (spawn attempt 2 was incubated at room temp.)

General conclusion: Waste of Mushrooms. On the upside, one of one thousand future ponderers of this question will be educated upon reading this post and save their mushrooms.

Rodger Rabbit: I am new to the shroomery and suprised to find such experiments haven't been conducted. Hope this helps although very vague.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: zyxwvutsr]
    #7897015 - 01/18/08 11:09 AM (16 years, 14 days ago)

Thanks for reporting that. It doesn't make sense for mushrooms to be cannibalistic, but the question comes up a lot.
RR


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Re: Increasing potency with 5-HTP (trytophan) [Re: fastfred]
    #25429032 - 09/01/18 05:31 PM (5 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
I think that will do nothing.  Active mushrooms are good at 4-hydroxylating indoles and tryptamines, but it's going to give different products.

You'll just end up with 4-hydroxylated or phosphorylated IBA.  The carboxylic acid group is going to be reactive, so who knows what you'll end up with on that end.  It would be an interesting experiment, but I would be careful.  You never know what might turn out to be highly toxic.


-FF




^^ this.

I want to update an old post because I was thinking about adding 5-HTP to the substrate. I almost did the experiment but it turns out there could be a safety issue.

There is a chance that the mushroom could produce the neurotoxin  4,5-dihydroxytryptamine.

In general, this risk exists with any 5-OH substituted tryptamine.

I'm not saying the double hydroxy will form, but that there is a chance that it could. Mushrooms are very good at hydrolizing the 4-position.

I want to say: proceed with extreme caution. Best case you get bufotenine by adding 5-HTP, intermediate you could get nothing new, but worst case you get a neurotoxin.

Thank you and take care.


Edited by Loveall (09/01/18 05:33 PM)


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