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Invisiblebaltazar
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Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 746
Check out my new cells
    #5880510 - 07/20/06 06:52 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)


I made some cells for electrolysis, you can see the pictures below:




Cant wait to get some products.



Edited by baltazar (06/21/11 03:55 AM)


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OfflineSchwip
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Re: Check out my new chlorate cells [Re: baltazar]
    #5880542 - 07/20/06 07:12 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

If i may ask, what the devil do you want potassium chlorate for?


--------------------
--------------------------------

" If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. "

..............

"MAN! You know there aint no such thing as left over crack!"



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Invisiblebaltazar
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Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 746
Re: Check out my new cells [Re: Schwip]
    #5880544 - 07/20/06 07:14 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Mainly for rocketry, which has been a hobby of mine, for some time.



Edited by baltazar (06/21/11 04:50 AM)


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InvisibleUnderNose
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Re: Check out my new chlorate cells [Re: Schwip]
    #5880545 - 07/20/06 07:14 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:grenade:


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Check out my new chlorate cells [Re: baltazar]
    #5880585 - 07/20/06 07:36 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Dude,
In todays day and age, U lucky you don't live in US or UK!

We'd be put in jail indefnately under terror acts for those things. In fact you'd most likely be shot dead in the raid.


What reactions happening here? Wouldn't you end up with sodium perchlorate?


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Invisiblebaltazar
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Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 746
Re: Check out my new cells [Re: Ego Death]
    #5880678 - 07/20/06 08:26 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

danoEoboy said:
What reactions happening here?  Wouldn't you end up with sodium perchlorate?




The chlorate cells oxidate the NaCl to NaClO3 in this reaction

Then after the electrolysis, you filter the product and exchenge ions between NaClO3 (that you got by electrolysis) and KCl (that you have to buy)... Here's the second reaction that describes it
NaClO3 + KCl --> KClO3 + NaCl

I will probably make KClO4 out of KClO3, because the first one is much more stable...



Edited by baltazar (06/21/11 04:54 AM)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Check out my new chlorate cells [Re: baltazar]
    #5880691 - 07/20/06 08:37 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

that stuff is illegal here, but as long as you dont get caught




As long as you don't get caught you might well post it on a public forum :smirk:

I don't think theres a country where chlorates are illegal in the strictest sense, but it all depends on what you plan to do with it.

So, what *do* you plan to do with it?

And do you realize how incredibly dangerous Chlorate/reducer mixtures are? You are in serious risk of injury.


btw those lids: not only do they corrode but also they contain copper, copper making chlorate mixtures dangerously unstable. (unstable, not better)


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Invisiblebaltazar
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Posts: 746
Re: Check out my new cells [Re: Asante]
    #5880711 - 07/20/06 08:51 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:

So, what *do* you plan to do with it?

And do you realize how incredibly dangerous Chlorate/reducer mixtures are? You are in serious risk of injury.

btw those lids: not only do they corrode but also they contain copper, copper making chlorate mixtures dangerously unstable. (unstable, not better)




The answer for your first question -> rocket engines  :smile:

The answer for your second question ->
Quote:

baltazar said:
I will probably make KClO4 out of KClO3, because the first one is much more stable...





And concerning the lids, te bottom side is well insulated with an inert material (rubber), so the lid wont be in direct contact with the electrolyte.
:smile:


Edited by baltazar (06/21/11 04:54 AM)


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Check out my new chlorate cells [Re: baltazar]
    #5881035 - 07/20/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Cool,

what will you use as the fuel, cane sugar?


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Invisiblebaltazar
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Posts: 746
Re: Check out my new cells [Re: Ego Death]
    #5881302 - 07/20/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

danoEoboy said:
Cool,

what will you use as the fuel, cane sugar?




Yes, the first thing ill try, is mixing it with some sugar. So far i just used the good old potassium nitrate + sugar mix, because KNO3 was relatively easy to get here, but i heard that you can get more power/thrust using the KClO4 compositon, so i thought its worth to try...
If i get disappointed with KClO4 rocket engine performance (... but i dont think that could happen), i could still find some other interesting uses of the stuff  :thumbup: :wink:


Edited by baltazar (06/21/11 04:55 AM)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Check out my new chlorate cells [Re: baltazar]
    #5881714 - 07/20/06 03:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

How much do you hope to produce? Surely you calculated your cell to give a certain yield..

And hey, please treat us to the plans of one of your past or future rockets, mebbe we can help you improve things..

Currently in model rocketeering ammoniumnitrate/magnesium compositions are da shit! The Space Shuttle uses Ammoniumperchlorate/aluminium with a polymer binder, so that part of rocket science, well, isn't  :wink:


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Check out my new chlorate cells [Re: baltazar]
    #5883550 - 07/21/06 02:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Hell, I'd just buy the stuff from United Nuclear... but meh, making it does sound fun


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Invisiblebaltazar
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Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 746
Re: Check out my new cells [Re: Konnrade]
    #5883631 - 07/21/06 04:08 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The problem here is that its almost impossible to get potassium chlorate, you can only get about 250 grams of high quality KClO3 at the pharmacy for 50$, and i just wont give that much money for only 250 grams. It is cheaper to build my own cells and make KClO3 myself...

@ Wiccan_Seeker -> both cells could process about 1100 ml of electrolyte, thats about 385 grams of NaCl. Depending on the efficiency of my cells, the yield could be between 400-770 grams of KClO3.



Edited by baltazar (06/21/11 04:55 AM)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Check out my new chlorate cells [Re: baltazar]
    #5883647 - 07/21/06 04:37 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I can't ofcourse read Croatian, but I can read Chemistry.

Damn, you're no stranger to danger, be very careful. If I can especially warn you for two things its for the acetone stuff and for flashpowder. Highly dangerous stuff..

Quote:

Anyway, playing with explosives is getting a little too dangerous for me, so im getting more and more occupied with rocketry...




Good, good! At some point its time to move on to things that provide more of a technical challenge.

A while back we had a discussion involving boomers, and I posted a little vid I found online of an NM device blowing up a tree.
So that was you LOLOLOL
Small world!

I've stopped with pyrotechnics years ago, but it's one cool hobby!


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Invisiblebaltazar
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Posts: 746
Re: Check out my new cells [Re: Asante]
    #5883714 - 07/21/06 06:13 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think acetone peroxide is that dangerous when made in small quantity.

Oh, i have to disappoint you, that picture wasn't taken by me, there was a poll on the site and the visitors chosed that one to be on the index :smile: But that is one of my favorite detonation movies i found on the net.


Edited by baltazar (06/21/11 04:55 AM)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Check out my new chlorate cells [Re: baltazar]
    #5883756 - 07/21/06 07:05 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The acetone p. is not that dangerous when made in small quantity




Yes it is!
Baltazar: yes it is. That family of compounds is unstable, especially when made under kitchen circumstances. It can be fairly safe under many circumstances, but suddenly go high-order without any warning and smack you on the eardrums and rip a finger off. I know it is said that usually a small quantity of that stuff, if unconfined, goes up in a puff, but they fail to realize that withing every single miligram of the stuff there is the dormant capacity to go high-order, and take the rest up with it.

The noise and force of a toy cap is about equivalent to one miligram of such stuff. Imagine the thousands of miligrams you might call a "small batch" goes off on the bench you're working at.
For the love of God man: it is just too dangerous.

If you want to go that dangerous path (I for one was even in by bold years too cautious to even attempt such stuff) then I suggest that you use that what the professionals use, because they do not go there for a *reason* which is that such improvised things are way too unpredictable in sensitivity and effects.

By all means focus yourself on rocketry!
What is more fun? Tinkering with sensitive chemicals which you compress in a cardboard tube and set off in one clap of thunder, or designing a rocket and seeing if it gets to the altitude you designed it for, to at that altitude perhaps shooting a few pics (using the inner workings of a throwaway camera) before ejecting a parachute and descending safely onto the field?

Rocketeering is far more fun than the things that go woomph in the night, and besides that woomph in the night will bring back some awful memories in your neighboring Croatians, I'm sure.
Quit tinkering with high explosives while you still have fingers on your hands, and hands on your wrists. :thumbup:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Check out my new chlorate cells [Re: baltazar]
    #5883778 - 07/21/06 07:18 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Be very careful of metal contaminates getting mixed in with the chlorates. I have seen the results, and it isn't pretty. Be especially careful with the threads between the jar and the lids... both of your cells and your final storage container.

> acetone peroxide is not that dangerous when made in small quantity

Again, be very careful. Tri-cyclic acetone peroxide is extremly sensitive and can detonate when least expected. I know this from experience. It is shock, friction, and heat sensitive. Published sources will claim that unconfined, more than 2g will detonate rather than burn. However, I have seen less than a single gram detonate, unconfined. This is not something I would want to press into a detonator. *shiver*

Also, be very careful of the recipes on the internet. The volume of all reagents that I used to mix was only 8.2 ml total and would result in a fairly safe volume of precipitate. Some of the crap I have read online is telling people to mix 30ml to 50ml of each reagent, or more... absolutely insane! If you value your fingers and hands, keep the reaction small.

There are much better (safer) alternatives if you do a bit of research.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Check out my new chlorate cells [Re: Seuss]
    #5883863 - 07/21/06 08:20 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Ah Seuss! I was going to chime you in to offer your words of professional wisdom and fatherly admin advice :smile:

I once read the story of some idiot who had made a kilo of said stuff. When he was verbally beaten up by his friends he disposed of it by washing it down his sink :eek:

He did not open up the pavement in front of his house by that idiot move of his, but he very well could've.

But Seuss is right: most recipies on the internet are death traps written by people who may have the technique down, but who have no clue about the real dangers involved.

One such "cookbook" authors once made half an ounce of a certain mixture of common chemicals, in a plastic pill bottle, stirring carefully with a teaspoon. The loose powder detonated in his hands. His hand holding the pill bottle looked like a sledgehammer had slammed down on it (which basically, psi for psi, is an understatement) the fireball blinded him for months and the loosely held metal teaspoon was almost tied in a knot by the force with which it was thrown from the explosion. His hand could not be saved.

If that mixture had been intimately mixed, or had been your acetone compound, his hand would've been taken off at the wrist, the forearm broken, his chest severely bruised and his head thrown back with such force that he'd have a concussion and whiplash to his neck. At a distance high explosives are just like totally cool fireworks but up close they are enormously more destructive because within a certain small radius the velocity and pressures are beyond anything fireworks mixtures are capable of.

Things like Semtex



can be worked with in relative safety because they are standardized products of chemicals and mixtures that have proven to be safe in professional explosives testing (Seuss can probably tell you a lot more about that) but that absolutely cannot be said about home-cooked materials.

---

Pitfalls I see for your Chlorate cell:

There'll be chlorine and hydrogen gases which will mix. That with or without electrical sparks can be reason for concern.

Your anodes will deposit carbon (reducing agent) in your oxidiser, which has to be rigorously removed from it which is very hard as it will be in a microscopic particle size.

You will have sodium hydroxide and sodium hypochlorite in your product. These will attract moisture (VERY bad in propellant mixes) and sodium hypochlorite may cause spontaneous ignition. I recommend that you add a bit of alcohol (a teaspoon or tablespoon to a liter) to your chlorate brine AFTER the reaction is over and BEFORE the recrystallisation runs, when all is still in solution, to rid it of hypochlorite.

Make sure that NO metal contaminants, especially of copper, can get into your Chlorate. This means that there may be no bare metal whatsoever inside your reaction vessel.

The gas escaping from your reaction vessel is NOT hydrogen gas.
It is hydrogen gas WITH chlorine and WITH a fine mist of your reaction mixture. As the reaction progresses this mist will deposit concentrated sodium chlorate solution onto the things in the vicinity of your gas vent, which is an important fire hazard should you want to make lots and lots of your product, which a rocketeer would want.

When you do the methathesis reactions to form potassium chlorate/perchlorate, you got to rigorously purify through recrystallisation because otherwise the sodium will ruin the flame color (if you're into serious pyrotechnics) which will cause loss of product.

It is very VERY important to make sure there is no residual chlorate in your perchlorate endproduct, because otherwise you get mixtures which are as sensitive as chlorate but as forceful as perchlorate mixtures, which is a combination horrible accidents are made of.

In some nations potassium perchlorate can be had in multikilogram quantities by private individuals, maybe also in Croatia. Also there might be an amateur rocketeering club in your area, or you may perhaps even start one, thereby properly legalizing your experiments :thumbup:

---

From the bottom of my heart I recommend you to NOT use chlorate for rocket motors but ONLY perchlorate or perchlorate/nitrate mixtures. Chlorate is just too damn sensitive when mixed with combustibles.

Treat chlorate as an intermediate in the production of perchlorate and best not do anything with it other than some small-scale experimenting.

Speaking of scale: how big will your rockets be? Will it be with sub- or few-ounce motors or will Croatia be startled by some particularly off-course qassam rockets? :wink:

Until you get aerodynamics down there is no shame in attaching a stick to your rocket to ensure stabilized flight, just like with an oversized bottle rocket.


Wow, a pyrotechnics topic in Science & Technology! That brings back fond memories :laugh:


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Invisiblebaltazar
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Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 746
Re: Check out my new cells [Re: Asante]
    #5884343 - 07/21/06 12:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Dont worry, my HE days are over, some time ago i witnessed the detonation of several mL of nitroglycerin and i must say that it really scared me like hell. After that, i don't think i would like to mess with stuff like that any more.


You see those little glass pipes on each cell? The gases will go through the pipes in a some basic solution (NaOH, Na2CO3, or some other), and then through a pipe filled with activated carbon. Sparks could be a problem, because of the hydrogen, but the risk is low if i dont touch or do anything with the cells when they are operating.

After the electrolysis, the solution is filtered to remove carbon particles and other crap, it takes about 1-2 days to filter the ammount i will be making, using that method. I would be happy to have better anodes, like some platinum/titanium alloy, but i just couldnt find a place to get them here. Graphite was the only way to go. Cathodes are made out of stainless steel, and so are all other parts inside the cell.

Your idea about contacting some rocketeering club sounds good, ill make some calls tommorow...

Oh yes, i have one question concerning my cells - could the anodes be made out of stainless steel? (while the cathodes are also made of steel)


Edited by baltazar (06/21/11 04:56 AM)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Check out my new chlorate cells [Re: baltazar]
    #5884416 - 07/21/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

could the anodes be made out of stainless steel?




Nope, it would corrode like wild.

Quote:

Cathodes are made out of stainless steel, and so are all other parts inside the cell.




Ouch!

That won't work at all.
The little stainless steel there is in your cell has to be "kathodically protected" which means its oppositely charged to the anode. Only then will it hardly corrode. Non-electrified exposed stainless steel will corrode, putting Seuss' metal salts in your product.

You'd have to coat unprotected steel.
Not so easy is it?

Consider going legal, you are after all a mature adult interested in the persuit of a legitimate hobby. If you join or start a rocketeers club you guys can get a permit and import directly from a supplier such as:

------------------------------------------------------------------
Hebei Yatai Electrochemistry Co., Ltd.

Potassium Perchlorate


Main Specifications: Potassium Perchlorate(KCLO4): 99.2%
Packing: 25kg plastic-lined woven bag, 25kg carton, 50kg iron drum, 1000kg knitted bag
Uses: 1. Used in manufacture of fire cracker, safe match, explosive, signal flare, etc2. Used in fuel in the most advanced technology of climate rocket, also as oxidant in medicine and hygiene.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't even DREAM of doing this without the required permits or your government will FRY you!! If you have the required permits - no problem. This, buying directly from the manufacturer, is what the big pyrotechnics and rocketeer clubs do. One such 50kg-drum, imported and all, will cost a couple hundred dollars at most. You to all likelyness will need someone with the croatian equivalent of an "explosives licence" in order to get the licences to do this, as well as a dedicated storage facility (such as under lockup in a shed on a field) All this is best done in a group dedicated to the hobby.

Commercial perchlorate will defeat any quality you can remotely hope to achieve with homemade perchlorate.

But: how much composition will you use in your rocket motors?


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