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OfflineEquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: From the Lebanese people to the so called "civilized" west : "THANK YOU" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5906165 - 07/27/06 05:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Please refer to the statics I posted earlier.


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OfflineBasilides
Servent ofWisdom
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Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
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Re: From the Lebanese people to the so called "civilized" west : "THANK YOU" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5906662 - 07/27/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The Lebanese government does not have the option to stand aside. They failed to live up to their agreement to disarm Hez and now they are going to be suffer consequences because Israel will not and cannot tolerate the acts of some of the Lebanese citizens who refuse to cease their belligerent behaviour. They have to side with Israel or they are not a government, they are a joke.
As to the peacekeeping force, there is supposed to be one there already. You know, the UNIFIL that you mention further on down that was there to oversee the disarmament of Hezbollah. Apparently no country is willing to take on the task anyway. So, you might as well wait for Godot, the second coming of Jesus and set a place for Elijah. They aint coming. There is no cavalry over the hill.


I'm afraid the Lebanese government doesn't really have a logical choice at this moment other than to pull a Swiss. If they fight Hezbollah alongside Israel, they are potentially going to conjugate a civil war. Finally, the Lebanese military isn't much. Why does Israel "need" them?

No no no. This latest in from Al Q;
"CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - Al-Qaida's No. 2 leader issued a worldwide call in a new videotape released Thursday for Muslims to rise up in a holy war against Israel and join the fighting in Lebanon and Gaza until Islam reigns from "Spain to Iraq."
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060727/D8J4AUMO0.html
It has nothing to do with Shia vs Sunni. It is criminals versus the, allegedly, legitimate governments. And if they can't get a hold of their people they are complicit. As is the UN for standing idly by when they were supposed to be helping.


Al Qaeda is calling on Muslims to attack the "Zionists and Crusaders". Nothing new here, everyone pretty much expected Al Qaeda to comment one way or another on this gigantic elephant in the room. Notice how al-Zawhiri didn't even mention Hezbollah. Nasrallah is hardly a fan of Al-Qaeda, has condemned Osama bin Laden in the past and called on Shi'ite militants to completely refrain from attacking Americans in Lebanon. Not exactly on the same page as Al Qaeda. OBL and company are Salafist lunatics who hate Shi'ites. The only time they stop hating/killing each other is when they're distracted by a common enemy, and even then they get distracted by one another (Iraq).

I'm sorry that they are getting fucked. Most of them are probably decent. But, if you allow a murderer safe haven in your house, stand by while he amasses weapons, do nothing when he attacks and then let him back in your house with the police hot on his tail, all after you promised to do your best to stop him, you are going to have a problem. A big one.
Israeli citizens obligations? Their obligations are to destroy the murdering thugs who threaten the rule of law all over the world by taking care of their small part of it. They seem to be stepping up to the plate. Perhaps because they realize, unlike their Muslim neighbors, that it is LAW which keeps us all safe, and cowardice only begets disaster. If they would ever show a willingness to expel the vipers from their midst they would find many, many people willing to help them. Help them, not do it for them. But they never do. Cowards.


Israeli citizens? The Israeli and Lebanese civilians (or any law-abiding compatriot on this planet) aren't obligated to do anything other than provide food and shelter for their families. Unless there's a draft or mandatory service, of course.  :tongue:

I am not aware of any previous activity, except for an assassination attempt on Nasrullah gone awry, wherein Israel attempted to eliminate Hezbollah. And an assassiination isn't going to do it. Although it would have been a good start.
Speaking terms? No, they are on shooting terms. May the best man win. Now get out of the way and let them at him.


Just how closely do you follow the Israeli-Arab conflict? Destroying Hezbollah has been an Israeli pipe dream for decades. What makes you think they can pull it off this year?

See this;
"Read the UNIFIL press releases for yourself to learn that Hezbollah has not just shot at and seriously wounded UNIFIL observers - without any protest from Kofi Annan or The Age. You’ll also learn that UNIFIL has repeatedly reported Israeli shelling and bombing near UNIFIL outposts because Hezbollah fighters were shooting from right beside them ."
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andre...ost_was_bombed/

This was not a UN post far removed from the fighting. This was a bunch of fucking idiots used as human shields for Hez attacks. Key words here are "used" and "idiots". Kofi the fucking cunt should be prosecuted for allowing them to be used in that way. Or did he just want martyrs so he could condemn Israel. Given the past behaviour of the two groups, I find this far more likely than Israel deliberately bombing a clearly marked and removed U(seless)N(itwit) outpost.


Complete utter goatshit. You have no proof that the UN allowed Hezbollah to use such outposts as some kind of cannon fodder.

Got a link for that? I got a link or two, one from a useless nitwit;

"BEIRUT, Lebanon - The U.N. humanitarian chief accused Hezbollah on Monday of "cowardly blending" in among Lebanese civilians and causing the deaths of hundreds during two weeks of cross-border violence with
Israel.....
"Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children," he said. "I heard they were proud because they lost very few fighters and that it was the civilians bearing the brunt of this. I don't think anyone should be proud of having many more children and women dead than armed men."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060724/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_aid


Not surprising, really. We're talking about stateless actors here. You made the claim that Hezbollah was firing rockets from civilian locality. 5 days ago an Israeli general told CNN (either Miles O'Brien or Anderson Cooper) that it was difficult to immediately respond to newly fired Hezbollah rockets, citing that they normally fire them from ready-to-hightail pick up trucks. I'm not entirely sure what the definition of "blending" is either when referring to cladestinos. Storing weapons in civilian locations? Eating and sleeping in civilian locations? But Israel - they have been bombing civilian infrastructure that has nothing to do with Hezbollah; bridges, generators, pretty much everything a country needs to function properly. Lebanese people are literally forced to take shelter as soon as they hear an Israeli drone scoping the area. Intuitively, they know Israel simply doesn't give a shit where their 500 pound bombs land. The fleeing American expats also likely had the same feeling.

No, Israel's pull out was not a gesture at all. A gesture is a fake thing. They actually did pull out.
Now, I want the link to the assassin cell. As to the drones and IAF, the sentence is incomprehensible and I have no idea what you mean by psych warfare here.


http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-06/13/content_4694573.htm

Once again, the governments seem to be dealing with it however they deal with it. Hezbollah has no say. They are just criminals, NOT GOVERNMENTS. You can't always get what you want. Tough shit, they need to grow up and quit whining when they don't get all the toys they want. I can't believe you can't see that. It's just an excuse to kill Jews anyway

:lol: You're starting to sound like a broken record. What should be done about undelineatad territory? Should Israel annex Sheebaa Farms? Should they give it to Lebanon? Syria? Just what is the solution here, because they're not using it for any practical purpose. It is not just a Hezballoid excuse. Lebanese Shi'ites in general want Israel out of the farms. You say "Tough shit". Well, that's pretty much the sentiment among Hezbollah leniency in Lebanon. Israel is too dense to get it, they think every dot and tittle of anger towards them is simply anti-Semitism.

Yes, but not by murdering criminals who have not the least notion of compromise, only death. They are merely death merchants. How come no one ever hears of this Hezbollah rallying cry, "Sheeba Farms or Death"? Because it isn't one. What they want is all of Israel with no Jews. If you think they would stop their bullshit if they were given the Sheeba Farms, I gotta bridge to sell you.

Do you have a link to back that presumption up? It has never really been about Hezbollah's perspective (in Lebanon) in regard to Sheebaa Farms. Alot of Lebanese feel the Israeli presence in Sheebaa Farms is illegal and unjust. Even Christians who hate Hezbollah want Israel out of Sheebaa Farms. Hezbollah is simply the explosive common denominator of a preceding popular sentiment.

Dream on. They got peace because the enemy was defeated. They kicked their asses and they weren't insane loons. Syria got it's ass kicked, too, but they're beholden to their Iranian masters. They also don't have the Golan Heights back either. Don't forget Israel traded Egyptian land for peace. Israel traded Jordanian land for peace. And how did they get this land? They won it when they were attacked by the swine and kicked their asses. Diplomacy my dick. Superior firepower is what got that peace.

No, if you'll look in your history books (or Wikipedia), you'll find that there was no threat of force against Egypt or Jordan if they did not make peace with Israel. Egypt and Jordan could have easily gone the route of the rogue, and their governments would still be standing today (except with a bit of lost land).

This is not at all clear as every Lebanese casualty is listed as a civilian. I have yet to see a Hez uniform. Some unfortunate inocents are dead. How many? Who knows.

In the next few days the Lebanese death toll will likely reach the 500 mark (it's estimated that 450+ plus are dead, around 350 have been officially documented as deceased). Pales in comparison to the few dozen Israelis who have been killed by Hezbollah rockets. What's more tragic is that Hezbollah could have been dealt with accordingly by Israeli force without all those deaths.

I have never seen Israel come out with a statement that they wished to eradicate all Arabs and/or Muslims. They mostly just want to be left alone. To draw an equivalency between the two groups is utterly absurd. Disproportionate?????? Fuck that. You use overwhelming power to defeat the enemy. This is not a handicap bowling league. That is just such a stupid concept. You attack me, you get everything I got until you are dead or submit completely.

?

Did you read my post too fast or something? Disproportionate, yes. Israel is entitled to beat down whatever group of bandits that threaten her, as any nation should and would. They are not entitled however, to destroy the civilian infrastructure of another country.

I would put up the education of the average Israel against yours.

:lol: Can't disagree with someone without calling them stupid? You know, in this reponse I was going to thank you for an interesting debate. But clearly you're taking it to heart. :shrug:

It's OK, I still love you for answering my baseball questions in the Brothel a few weeks ago :hug:


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: From the Lebanese people to the so called "civilized" west : "THANK YOU" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5906740 - 07/27/06 08:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yes, it is true they are the largest recipient.



Then they are not self reliant.

Quote:

They are only militaristic because anything else would be suicidal.



The state of Israel STARTED OUT militaristic. It started with terrorism, with large numbers of Jewish people who were not from the area, but from Europe. This alone, should give a contemplative person pause as to the righteousness of the establishment of a religious based state in an area which was inhabited by people of various faiths for generations. Do you always support the establishment of a state based on a particular religion? If not, why not?

Quote:

If their fucking neighbors would stop trying to murder each and every one of them they wouldn't need one cent of US support.



No, if the Zionist lobby was not so powerful, along with the Christian fundamentalist nut balls, along with the neo-con sycophants who get chubbies every time they hear about their government bombing little brown people, perhaps they wouldn't get the U.S. government's support. The Israelis should learn to stand on their own feet and quit feeding at the U.S. government pig trough. Do you always support parasitic behavior? If not, why not?

Quote:

No they are not dependant on our large presence in the mideast and never have been.



I said, 'bolster.' It always helps to have a very large bully on your side ready to back you up when you kick ass on a bunch of those who are weaker than you, just in case the weaklings should decide to gang up on you. It also helps to have the U.S. buy off and support various other regimes in the area with the understanding that Israel is to be left alone.

Quote:

I don't give a fuck what enemies I gain from doing the right thing.



But YOU are not doing the right thing, you only puff up your virtual chest on an internet BBS and perhaps vote to have others perform actions as your proxy. You are (maybe) electorally supporting certain politicians in your government so they may extort money from your fellow citizens to help out a foreign power in a manner which does not benefit your country one bit, but in fact breeds enemies. This is traitorous. The U.S. government was established for the people of the United States, not to support a Jewish state.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'


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Offlinemack_tasticlies
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Re: From the Lebanese people to the so called "civilized" west : "THANK YOU" [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5907958 - 07/28/06 04:04 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It seems to me the actions in the region are at present a necessary evil, they all need to come to an understanding.


If a few thousand people need to die right now so that they may establish a peace, I say it is sad, but not necessarily without justification.

You have to consider the long term affects.

Israel will never know the glory of pristine sanctuary as long as Muslims from the North, and East and South continue to rain down fire on them.

This a conflict dating back thousands of years, Hezbollah, A militant religious faction feels entitled to the land Israel has occupied for fifty years now,

It was land promised to them by that swine God of theirs, The Jews also having be lead forth from Pharaoh were also promised this little stretch of land by that swine God of theirs.

Until Israel makes it more painful for the Muslims to start jumping bad than it is worth, the conflict will never cease and the death count will become first thousands and then eventually millions.

I can't believe for one moment, especially in the region Hezbollah has dug in there is one person without ties to their organization, except for the children.

It is a community outreach organization, laudable in fact for the care they provide their people. If they weren't secondly murderous holy war mongers. The people of south Lebanon loves them some Hezzies.

Also consider the fact that Hezbollah represents a third of the Entire country, as well as third of the Official Lebanese Government.

Those numbers hardly seem insignificant to me, and when push comes to shove and shove turns to pummeling, they the people and the officials of the country should be prepared for the repercussions.
They have allowed this nonsense to continue unabated and even perpetuated this shit.

If they were truly innocents, then they would have long since driven out the uninnocent and spared the wrath of the ultimate God, Tic for a Tac.


Edited by mack_tasticlies (07/28/06 05:53 AM)


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: From the Lebanese people to the so called "civilized" west : "THANK YOU" [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5908984 - 07/28/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:congrats:


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: From the Lebanese people to the so called "civilized" west : "THANK YOU" [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5909512 - 07/28/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Yes, it is true they are the largest recipient.



Then they are not self reliant.




You would do well to read the whole sentence, grasshopper, which was that they are "mostly" self reliant. Or do you deliberately attempt to cut and paste in such a manner as to distort what I said?
Quote:



Quote:

They are only militaristic because anything else would be suicidal.



The state of Israel STARTED OUT militaristic. It started with terrorism, with large numbers of Jewish people who were not from the area, but from Europe. This alone, should give a contemplative person pause as to the righteousness of the establishment of a religious based state in an area which was inhabited by people of various faiths for generations. Do you always support the establishment of a state based on a particular religion? If not, why not?




For the umpteenth time I will explain that the entire mideast map is a construct of the victors from the two world wars. It was made and it is settled. That fight is over. Israel has no more artificial borders than any other nation in the region. That is a fact. There were always Jews there and more Jews fled there later after they were granted a state and murdered throughout, THROUGHOUT, Europe. As to the religion thing, I don't know, all religion is for idiots. It just seems to me that this particular group of idiots in a tiny sliver of resource free land gets far more than its share of hatred from a bunch of equally idiotic, actually even more idiotic in their zealous fervor, assholes. Was Israel forced to actually fight for what they were supposedly given from day one? Yes they were, because their neighbors refused to recognize for Israel the same thing that was given them.
Quote:



Quote:

If their fucking neighbors would stop trying to murder each and every one of them they wouldn't need one cent of US support.



No, if the Zionist lobby was not so powerful, along with the Christian fundamentalist nut balls, along with the neo-con sycophants who get chubbies every time they hear about their government bombing little brown people, perhaps they wouldn't get the U.S. government's support. The Israelis should learn to stand on their own feet and quit feeding at the U.S. government pig trough. Do you always support parasitic behavior? If not, why not?




Hey, genius, Jews and Arabs are the same race. They are equally brown. If their neighbors weren't murederous maniacs we wouldn't have to help them at all. And they would be even further ahead of their troglodyte neighbors than they already are. But their neighbors ARE murderous maniacs and religious whack jobs intent on turning the whole world into an allah worshipping pedophile. I have never heard of any Jew interested in making anyone convert to Judaism, whether by the sword or the word. The goat humpers seem to prefer the sword.
Quote:



Quote:

No they are not dependant on our large presence in the mideast and never have been.



I said, 'bolster.' It always helps to have a very large bully on your side ready to back you up when you kick ass on a bunch of those who are weaker than you, just in case the weaklings should decide to gang up on you. It also helps to have the U.S. buy off and support various other regimes in the area with the understanding that Israel is to be left alone.




We do not have troops in the mideast for Israel. We have them there for Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. What, were you 2 in 1990? Get a clue. And start paying taxes before you whine about where they're being spent. I'd rather cut off your school aid, myself.
So now you want us to stop giving any aid to the Arabs and Egyptians too. Well, that's actually consistent. No aid to anyone. Naive and selfish but consistent. And if you think Jordan and Egypt backed off because of the money, you are sadly deluded
Quote:



Quote:

I don't give a fuck what enemies I gain from doing the right thing.



But YOU are not doing the right thing, you only puff up your virtual chest on an internet BBS and perhaps vote to have others perform actions as your proxy. You are (maybe) electorally supporting certain politicians in your government so they may extort money from your fellow citizens to help out a foreign power in a manner which does not benefit your country one bit, but in fact breeds enemies. This is traitorous. The U.S. government was established for the people of the United States, not to support a Jewish state.




I will chop this up.
I think we are doing the right thing by helping Israel to avoid eradication by its psychotic neighbors. And, I don't give a fuck what you think. You and your ilk are marginalized, so you can pretty much go piss up a rope and see what that gets you.
The money sent to Israel is peanuts. And I'm quite happy to see it sent if it just sends a message to intolerant religious jerkoffs that we will not be cowed by their shit.
I have no problem with being perceived as an enemy by murderes, rapists, thieves, pedophiles, etc. Ever.
You are not in any position or of any information which would allow you to determine what is in the interest of the USA. You are, I suspect, barely out of childhood.
If the duly elected representatives of the USA decide that it is in its interest to support Israel than you have no standing to override it. You are basicly a loud noise that is fairly easily ignored as a minority. Win an election and you can impose your policy. Until then your views are mud.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: From the Lebanese people to the so called "civilized" west : "THANK YOU" [Re: Basilides]
    #5909810 - 07/28/06 07:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:

When the enemy uses minivans and ambulances for troop carriers and fires rockets from houses and mosques, it is the enemy that makes those things targets.

Got any evidence of this? I've never heard of Hezbollah using ambulances or mosques for that matter. The IDF itself has said that Hezbollah mostly fires rockets from pick up trucks in order to move out quickly.




I don't have a video of hez using them but I have one of some pricks in the Gaza. And they qualify as enemy to me.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21813_Palestinian_Terrorists_in_UN_Ambulances#comments


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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: From the Lebanese people to the so called "civilized" west : "THANK YOU" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5910138 - 07/28/06 09:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
they are "mostly" self reliant.



They are the recipients of the largest amount of foreign aid from the U.S. of any country. For a country small enough to fit into almost any state of the U.S., mostly parasitic is more appropriate.

Quote:

Was Israel forced to actually fight for what they were supposedly given from day one?



Given? At the expense of the people who occupied the land for generations? European Jews had no right to claim the land and create a state in the mid-east, no more than Germans had a right to claim land in Poland and integrate it into the German state. The wrongs committed against European Jews do not qualify as justification for them to be party to carving out a state hundreds of miles away in a land that was foreign to them.

Quote:

Hey, genius, Jews and Arabs are the same race. They are equally brown.



It's nice that you can flatter me by assuming that my intellect is superior to your own. However, your statement regarding Jews and Arabs is only partially true. Shepardic Jews and Palestinians are in fact a common people separated by religion, but the Ashkenazi are of a different ancestry. The Ashkenazi are not equally brown in comparison to the semitic peoples and in fact many are blond haired and blue eyed.

Quote:

If their neighbors weren't murederous maniacs we wouldn't have to help them at all.



I thought the Israelis were mostly self-reliant? The fact is, 'we' do NOT have to help them at all. It is not the job of the U.S. government, it is not in the constitution as an enumerated duty of the federal government.

Surely, you are not so blind and narrow minded as to assume that all Arabs or Muslims are as you paint them, are you?

Quote:

I have never heard of any Jew interested in making anyone convert to Judaism



Try dating a Jewish American Princess sometime, in a serious relationship where marriage is discussed.

Quote:

We do not have troops in the mideast for Israel. We have them there for Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.



Friendly regimes who are propped up by the U.S. military and cajoled into getting along with Israel. Apparently, you have not informed yourself about the lobby, AIPAC, nor the many supporters of Israel inside the U.S. government who shape U.S. policy specifically to benefit Israel.

Quote:

Get a clue.



Well that would put me at least one clue ahead of you. Thanks anyways, but I have quite a preponderance of clues as well as knowledge of many things.

Quote:

And start paying taxes before you whine about where they're being spent. I'd rather cut off your school aid, myself.



I have been paying taxes for several decades, I do not whine. By 'cut off school aid,' do you mean that you can help me to stop paying property taxes to aid the public schools? Are you a public school graduate?

Quote:

So now you want us to stop giving any aid to the Arabs and Egyptians too. Well, that's actually consistent. No aid to anyone. Naive and selfish but consistent.



It is neither naive, nor selfish. I do not wish to force others by proxy of the U.S. government to support causes which are CONTRARY to national interests and may be against the wishes and morality of my fellow citizens.

Quote:

I think we are doing the right thing by helping Israel to avoid eradication by its psychotic neighbors.



Correction, 'we' (meaning, including you) are not doing anything. Again, at the most (besides fulminating on an internet BBS) you are merely voting for others to do things with extorted tax money. Feel free to donate your own money to support Israel or anyone else you like, I will not stop you, nor will I offer protest (unless the recipients attack the U.S., spy on the U.S., steal U.S. government secrets or attack my loved ones).

Quote:

And, I don't give a fuck what you think.



Then why do you take the time to bloviate?

Quote:

You and your ilk are marginalized, so you can pretty much go piss up a rope and see what that gets you.



I just want to take this opportunity to say that I am really impressed with your display of anonymous internet manhood. Not only that, by contrast to you, you make it easy for others to appear extraordinarily civil.

Quote:

The money sent to Israel is peanuts.



Yes, I suppose when it's other people's money it's peanuts to you. But I am pretty much certain that you are not providing all U.S. aid to the country single handedly. It is not your money to give to a foreign power. A foreign power I might add, which has spied on the U.S., stolen U.S. government secrets and even attacked U.S. targets.

Quote:

You are not in any position or of any information which would allow you to determine what is in the interest of the USA.



I have access to quite a bit of information, including U.S. debt figures and quotes from people who have actually been involved in attacking U.S. targets in which they state that the U.S. policy in support of Israel is a major motivating factor in their attacks.

Quote:

You are, I suspect, barely out of childhood.



When I see your repeated references to the age of people you disagree with (which is irrelevant to the arguments presented) and how incredibly off you are in your estimations, it comes as no surprise that you can be so wrong about other things as well.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'


Edited by Trepiodos (07/28/06 09:39 PM)


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: From the Lebanese people to the so called "civilized" west : "THANK YOU" [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5911001 - 07/29/06 02:14 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Like I've been pointing out for a very long time, the #1 tactic of right-wing debating is to attack anyone who disagrees with you and avoid directly addressing their argument. Thus you can spend the time trying to discredit the speaker and sidestep any real debate. Phred and Zappa are the kings of this on this board, there are a few others too but they mostly take notes from those two.

It is clear he had no reason to bring your age into that discussion, what reason is there unless he wanted to draw attention away from what you were saying? It's quite obvious really.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


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OfflinePhred
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Re: From the Lebanese people to the so called "civilized" west : "THANK YOU" [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5911824 - 07/29/06 11:50 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Like I've been pointing out for a very long time, the #1 tactic of right-wing debating is to attack anyone who disagrees with you and avoid directly addressing their argument. Thus you can spend the time trying to discredit the speaker and sidestep any real debate. Phred and Zappa are the kings of this on this board, there are a few others too but they mostly take notes from those two.




Psychologists call statements like this "projection".

My dear Rosetta, I invite you to post a link to any thread in which I have been involved in an ongoing discussion where I have avoided directly addressing an argument. Any one. Go back four years if you must.

The fact of the matter is that I always directly answer questions asked of me in a debate (unless of course it's a matter of repeating for the thirtieth time the same points I had last covered a week or two earlier in the umpteenth thread on a missile crashing into the Pentagon, etc., in which case I tell my opponent to check the archives), and I address all points raised. The same is far from true of my opponents. Come to think of it, you yourself have dodged more than a few of my points in our own discussions.

Out of curiosity, which point do you feel zappa has left unaddressed in this thread?



Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: From the Lebanese people to the so called "civilized" west : "THANK YOU" [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5912673 - 07/29/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
they are "mostly" self reliant.



They are the recipients of the largest amount of foreign aid from the U.S. of any country. For a country small enough to fit into almost any state of the U.S., mostly parasitic is more appropriate.

I am going to say it again. If they were not under constant assault by their neighbors we wouldn't have to send them one nickel. They receive our support strictly because of the lawless thugs surrounding them. The money is spent to ensure international order pursuant to the edicts set forth when the boundaries of the middle east were drawn.


Quote:

Was Israel forced to actually fight for what they were supposedly given from day one?



Given? At the expense of the people who occupied the land for generations? European Jews had no right to claim the land and create a state in the mid-east, no more than Germans had a right to claim land in Poland and integrate it into the German state. The wrongs committed against European Jews do not qualify as justification for them to be party to carving out a state hundreds of miles away in a land that was foreign to them.

More dishonest cutting and pasting. Here is the whole paragraph

"For the umpteenth time I will explain that the entire mideast map is a construct of the victors from the two world wars. It was made and it is settled. That fight is over. Israel has no more artificial borders than any other nation in the region. That is a fact. There were always Jews there and more Jews fled there later after they were granted a state and murdered throughout, THROUGHOUT, Europe. As to the religion thing, I don't know, all religion is for idiots. It just seems to me that this particular group of idiots in a tiny sliver of resource free land gets far more than its share of hatred from a bunch of equally idiotic, actually even more idiotic in their zealous fervor, assholes. Was Israel forced to actually fight for what they were supposedly given from day one? Yes they were, because their neighbors refused to recognize for Israel the same thing that was given them."

They didn't "claim the land" it was given them when the mideast borders were drawn. Further, no Arabs were evicted then. The Palestinian refugees became so when they backed the wrong side. Tough for losers. The European Jews did not carve out Israel and slaughter or evict the natives. It simply didn't happen. A state was created for the Jews and it was made open, by the Israeli government, to any Jew who wanted to come. The borders were tiny and the country had no resources but many Jews fled Europe, because of the anti-semitism there, looking for a better life. They did not kick the indigenous Arabs out.


Quote:

Hey, genius, Jews and Arabs are the same race. They are equally brown.



It's nice that you can flatter me by assuming that my intellect is superior to your own. However, your statement regarding Jews and Arabs is only partially true. Shepardic Jews and Palestinians are in fact a common people separated by religion, but the Ashkenazi are of a different ancestry. The Ashkenazi are not equally brown in comparison to the semitic peoples and in fact many are blond haired and blue eyed.

You responded to this by assuming I meant Jews were brown. No, grasshopper, the fact is that my meaning was actually more to assert that Arabs are not "brown". Any more than Sicilians or Greeks or Spaniards.



Quote:

If their neighbors weren't murederous maniacs we wouldn't have to help them at all.



I thought the Israelis were mostly self-reliant? The fact is, 'we' do NOT have to help them at all. It is not the job of the U.S. government, it is not in the constitution as an enumerated duty of the federal government.

It is in our interests to enforce orderly borders throughout the world. That you do not seem to think so is of no relevance. We have no obligation to do so but we certainly can if we see it as advantageous. Your views are clearly not shared by those in power or even most Americans. (Don't forget, the whole Iraq issue is because Hussein invaded Kuwait ("brown" people, you know), a border incursion.) You can stamp your feet all you want, but yours is a minority view and you clearly have no notion of constitutional law since this has been going on for decades and has never been constitutionally challenged.


Surely, you are not so blind and narrow minded as to assume that all Arabs or Muslims are as you paint them, are you?

There's a fucking billion of them. I don't expect them all to be anything. They don't all have to be murdering thugs to be a problem, just enough of them. Compound that by the fact that a major portion of their brethren aid and abet their activities and that not one, I repeat, NOT ONE, Muslim leader has been able to stand up against the thuggery and bring them back from the abyss and it becomes quite easy to develop a sense of disgust


Quote:

I have never heard of any Jew interested in making anyone convert to Judaism



Try dating a Jewish American Princess sometime, in a serious relationship where marriage is discussed.

I married one. You seem to be equating the Muslim "convert or die" ultimatum with the JAP "convert or I'll stop sucking your dick" ultimatum. I hope this isn't true, because only a stupid asshole would do that and we've already established that you're a genius. By the way, I didn't convert. She didn't even ask.


Quote:

We do not have troops in the mideast for Israel. We have them there for Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.



Friendly regimes who are propped up by the U.S. military and cajoled into getting along with Israel.
Bullshit. The regimes are not propped up by the US military, thewhole countries were protected by the international community against Hussein. And S.A. is NOT friendly or supportive of Israel. I doubt Kuwait is too.


Apparently, you have not informed yourself about the lobby, AIPAC, nor the many supporters of Israel inside the U.S. government who shape U.S. policy specifically to benefit Israel.

I am fully aware that every foreign government has lobbyists in Washington DC. Are you?



Quote:

And start paying taxes before you whine about where they're being spent. I'd rather cut off your school aid, myself.



I have been paying taxes for several decades, I do not whine. By 'cut off school aid,' do you mean that you can help me to stop paying property taxes to aid the public schools? Are you a public school graduate?

For some reason I suspect that you have not been "paying taxes for decades." Otherwise you wouldn't be so ignorant of middle eastern history. Either that or they just started publishing newspapers where you live.


Quote:

So now you want us to stop giving any aid to the Arabs and Egyptians too. Well, that's actually consistent. No aid to anyone. Naive and selfish but consistent.



It is neither naive, nor selfish. I do not wish to force others by proxy of the U.S. government to support causes which are CONTRARY to national interests and may be against the wishes and morality of my fellow citizens.

The only problem with this is that the wishes and morality of your "fellow citizens" don't happen to be in a majority or in power. I don't know who your "fellow citizens" are but, fortunately, there aren't enough of "them" to make policy. Tough shit. And it is naive to think that we can be isolationist. Completely and utterly under the sheets with the night light on naive. Those days are long gone, grasshopper.


Quote:

I think we are doing the right thing by helping Israel to avoid eradication by its psychotic neighbors.



Correction, 'we' (meaning, including you) are not doing anything. Again, at the most (besides fulminating on an internet BBS) you are merely voting for others to do things with extorted tax money. Feel free to donate your own money to support Israel or anyone else you like, I will not stop you, nor will I offer protest (unless the recipients attack the U.S., spy on the U.S., steal U.S. government secrets or attack my loved ones).

Whatever. Forget the ludicrous masturbation over "extorted" tax money, I am doing something by voting for people who are adult enough to understand global policy. They are doing what I want them to do. And they are in a position to do so because people like me voted them in and contribute to their campaigns.



Quote:

You and your ilk are marginalized, so you can pretty much go piss up a rope and see what that gets you.



I just want to take this opportunity to say that I am really impressed with your display of anonymous internet manhood. Not only that, by contrast to you, you make it easy for others to appear extraordinarily civil.
You ARE marginalized and you can pretty much go piss up a rope


Quote:

The money sent to Israel is peanuts.



Yes, I suppose when it's other people's money it's peanuts to you. But I am pretty much certain that you are not providing all U.S. aid to the country single handedly. It is not your money to give to a foreign power. A foreign power I might add, which has spied on the U.S., stolen U.S. government secrets and even attacked U.S. targets.

Once again, I think it is money well spent. And I pay a disgusting amount in taxes. If it was up to me we wouldn't waste a cent rebuilding New Orleans. But we do. Oh well, I can't get everything I want.


Quote:

You are not in any position or of any information which would allow you to determine what is in the interest of the USA.



I have access to quite a bit of information, including U.S. debt figures and quotes from people who have actually been involved in attacking U.S. targets in which they state that the U.S. policy in support of Israel is a major motivating factor in their attacks.


Two things here. Foreign aid is a miniscule portion of the federal budget. Miniscule. And isolationism is no longer a viable alternative.

And I don't give a shit what these murdering thugs' motivation is. They are international criminals. They are not to be pandered to and they should be hunted down and killed. Al Q never cited Israel. At least not until they got a PR agent, which was well after the attacks. Other criminals assassinated Sadat. Was he an Israeli shill? No, he just realized that the existence of Israel is a done deal.
If it wasn't for the criminals we wouldn't need police. It is not the citizenry's fault that we have to spend money on police. It is the criminal's. It is exactly the same situation.


Quote:

You are, I suspect, barely out of childhood.



When I see your repeated references to the age of people you disagree with (which is irrelevant to the arguments presented) and how incredibly off you are in your estimations, it comes as no surprise that you can be so wrong about other things as well.

No, I'm usually pretty correct. And when I see posts as utterly ignorant of history as yours I make reasonable guesses that they are from youth. I think I'm being charitable.

The age is relevant in so many ways that I completely doubt you would bother making this distinction if you were not in fact quite youthful yourself. Have you learned nothing in your oh so many years on this earth? Have not your very thought processes changed over the decades?
Did you read any newspapers at all when the news was happening? Because what you spew is straight out of a text for Aryan Nation. And I don't give a fuck whether you like that characterization either.


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OfflineTrepiodos
Disgustipated
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/30/06
Posts: 469
Loc: Los Angeles County Jail
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: From the Lebanese people to the so called "civilized" west : "THANK YOU" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5913418 - 07/29/06 10:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Full of unfounded assertions, horrendously wrong guesses, emotion laden crudity and bereft of reason, reading your posts reminds me of some words that that are strangely appropriate in this context, "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." (Macbeth Act V, Scene V).


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
FumbDuck

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 1,144
Loc: BFE
Re: From the Lebanese people to the so called "civilized" west : "THANK YOU" [Re: MAIA]
    #5922757 - 08/01/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)



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