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Cyber
Ash


Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Legal question (Probable Cause)
#5878434 - 07/19/06 05:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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First off I know we have, or used to have, a few lawyers on here as well as some legal aids. So I thought I would try this question here.
NOTE: I am seeking an opinion, I would never take information provided on an online system as "Legal Advice"!
The easiest way I can think of to do this is with 4 scenarios. In each the driver was asked to consent to a search and turned it down. So here we go.
#1) Mike: Mike is speeding down the road and gets pulled over. As the cop is waling up to the car, Mike leans over and gets his insurance out of the glove box. The cop only saw Mike lean over and do something with the glove box. The cop searches the car based on the idea the Mike's actions were suspicious and he thinks mike is hiding something.
#2) Joe: Joe is speeding down the road and gets pulled over. As the cop is writing the ticket he sees a paper bag on the front seat of the car. Just inside the bag he can see a plastic baggy. The cop removes Joe from the car and searches the bag and the car.
#3) Jeff: Jeff is speeding down the road and gets pulled over. Jeff is wearing a shirt that has a pot leaf on it and reads "Smoke all you want, I'll grow more!" The cop removes Jeff from the car and searches the car.
#4) Mark: Mark is speeding down the road and gets pulled over. As the cop walks up to the car he can smell the pot! The cop removes Mark from the car and searches the car. In the trunk he finds a sealed box with an address, return address, and postage attached to it. He uses his pocket knife to open the box and hinds lots of pot!
So which ones do you think were probable cause? Can anyone site a case that would back up your belief?
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy

Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: Legal question (Probable Cause) [Re: Cyber]
#5878492 - 07/19/06 05:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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http://faculty.ncwc.edu/TOConnor/325/325lect05.htm
i dont know anything about the law..so ill leave it to zappa to call out the link...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
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Re: Legal question (Probable Cause) [Re: Annapurna1]
#5878515 - 07/19/06 05:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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My advice, never have anything illegal in your car that you cant eat quickly.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: Legal question (Probable Cause) [Re: lonestar2004]
#5878837 - 07/19/06 07:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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that's why i always say if you're gonna kidnap someone, make sure they're on the small side.
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xDuckYouSuckerx
xBannedx


Registered: 05/25/06
Posts: 1,410
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
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Re: Legal question (Probable Cause) [Re: Cyber]
#5879124 - 07/19/06 08:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cyber said: #1) Mike: Mike is speeding down the road and gets pulled over. As the cop is waling up to the car, Mike leans over and gets his insurance out of the glove box. The cop only saw Mike lean over and do something with the glove box. The cop searches the car based on the idea the Mike's actions were suspicious and he thinks mike is hiding something.
The cop has to be able to articulate why he felt that something was amiss. He can't say "It took a second longer to reach so I searched his car". He could say "In my training, people who are fumbling around under their seats are hiding something. I asked him about it and he denied reaching under his seat. I then asked for permission to search the car and it was given". In which case, he could search and find whatever he wants. Proper course of action? Don't do sketchy shit, don't give permission to search, make sure that you state that you aren't concenting to any search.
Quote:
#2) Joe: Joe is speeding down the road and gets pulled over. As the cop is writing the ticket he sees a paper bag on the front seat of the car. Just inside the bag he can see a plastic baggy. The cop removes Joe from the car and searches the bag and the car.
Nope, can't do it. A "plastic baggy" isn't enough for the probable cause that would be necessary. Now, this is state by state, but the cop could call another unit, a K9 unit, to 'scan' the car. Most states have restrictions on how this is done. The cop would probably ask what the baggie was and if the answer was fumbled or delayed, he'd probably say "Well if it's nothing illegal, you don't mind if I search, right?". Again, most criminals would say "Oh Ok! Sure Search!" and get arrested for the drugs. Best COA? Don't have shit like that lying out, and never concent to a search
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#3) Jeff: Jeff is speeding down the road and gets pulled over. Jeff is wearing a shirt that has a pot leaf on it and reads "Smoke all you want, I'll grow more!" The cop removes Jeff from the car and searches the car.
Based just on the fact that he was wearing the shirt? Totally illegal, anything gleaned would be inadmissible.
Quote:
#4) Mark: Mark is speeding down the road and gets pulled over. As the cop walks up to the car he can smell the pot! The cop removes Mark from the car and searches the car. In the trunk he finds a sealed box with an address, return address, and postage attached to it. He uses his pocket knife to open the box and hinds lots of pot!
That would be a "good" bust. The cop smelled marijuana and probably saw the chinked reddned eyes, so he could articulate that he has probable cause. He then has the right to search your car. As for openining the specific box, eh, that might be a BIT iffy, but I'm sure that he could just (lie) say that he smelled marijuana through it. If their was pot inside, well he was right. If their wasn't pot inside, well, he still was acting on 'good faith'
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So which ones do you think were probable cause? Can anyone site a case that would back up your belief?
I don't deal with specific case law, really. Basically, you shouldn't concent to a search. Here is how I've acted every single time I've been pulled over, even when I had weight.
1) You notice the cop turned his lights on. IMMEDIATLY put on your turn signal and look for a suitable place to pull over. Don't pull over on a blind corner .02 seconds after he lights you up or you'll appear to either be ignorant or a douchebag, neither of which appeal to the cop.
2) Pull over into a "safe" spot. Pull your car entirely off of the road. If you have to drive a little bit to find a 'safe' spot, do so SLOWLY and with your turn signal still on. Don't make any weird movements.
3) When you pull over, put your parking brake on, turn your interior light on and roll your window down a few inches (i usually dont' roll it down the whole way, thats just me, if the cop asks, roll it down) Put both hands on the steering wheel @ 10 and 2 o'clock
4) Wait for the officer. He'll tell you what he wants you to do, be friendly. IF he tells you to get your insurance card out and it's in the glove box, tell him that is where it is and just say "do you want me to get it". Sudden moves scare cops, and it's not good to scare the guy with the gun.
Addendum - I have a CCW permit for my state, and most others surrounding mine. Should I get pulled over, I always inform the officer when he approaches. Even if he is a dick and doesn't introduce himself, just demands my info, I always, ALWAYS say "Sure thing officer, I just want to let you know, before I move my hands, that I have my CCW, it's in my wallet, and I'm carrying one sidearm with me on my right hip, at four o'clock. What would you like me to do?" Most of them just say "OK, well, don't reach for it and let me see your CCW" and it's cool.
5) Do NOT concent to search. Make it clear that you don't concent to search. If he tries to search your person, it will probably be listed as a "terry search", meaning hes checking for weapons since you acted "suspicious", but if he finds something else, well, he fuond it "in good faith" and you are fucked for it. Don't carry shit on your person. In a backpack on the back seat is the best way to go, imo. If an officer goes to search your car without your concent, make it clear that you aren't giving him permission to search and that you are not concenting to the search.
Basically, don't go speeding around with two dead hookers in your trunk, be friendly to the cop and you should be ok.
-------------------- Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms
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GabbaDj
BTH


Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,682
Loc: By The Lake
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Re: Legal question (Probable Cause) [Re: Cyber]
#5879402 - 07/19/06 09:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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#1) No. The cop can say anything he wants but a judge may throw this one out.. Especially if the guy has his insurrance in his hand when the cop gets to the window.
#2) No. A cop may have a suspiscion but still no real probable cause and a judge just might throw this one out also.
#3) Yes. Wearing a T-Shirt like is probable cause in my mind and Im sure in a cops mind and Im sure even in a judges mind and something like this would never get thrown out unless someone has got LOTS of money.
#4) Where theirs smoke their fire. Where theirs pot smoke theirs pot.. Plain and simple.
The problem with probable cause is that a cop can and will search your car if they want too and they know that they can just let a judge sort out everything later.
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Legal question (Probable Cause) [Re: GabbaDj]
#5879469 - 07/19/06 10:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Reaching for your glovebox as a cop approaches is a good way to get shot, not searched. Ditto for reaching under the seat or anywhere else. I turn on the interior light if it's nightime and keep my hands on the steering wheel. Always shut off your engine. This puts the cop at ease.
That's good advice about not carrying more than you can eat.
Never break two laws at the same time. Smoking a joint while speeding is stupid. If you're speeding, be clean. If you're smoking a joint, don't speed.
If there is the smell of pot, that is grounds for a search.
In many states, an officer by routine asks for permission to search at every traffic stop. When I was in Minnesota, I got stopped twice and both times the cop asked to search my car. I was clean as a whistle both times, but refused permission just to see what would happen. Both times, after the "why don't you want me to search" questions, he left without searching me. Never give permission to a cop to violate your space. If he does anyway, at least you have a chance to get the charges thrown out, IF you have money for a good lawyer. That's why poor people go to jail, while the rest of us pay to support the system. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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xDuckYouSuckerx
xBannedx


Registered: 05/25/06
Posts: 1,410
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
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Re: Legal question (Probable Cause) [Re: GabbaDj]
#5879538 - 07/19/06 10:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wearing a t-shirt isn't probable cause. I'm glad you aren't a freakin judge man.
-------------------- Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms
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GabbaDj
BTH


Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,682
Loc: By The Lake
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Quote:
"Smoke all you want, I'll grow more!"
Advertisement like that cant be overlooked. Lets say that a person has blood all over his T-Shirt and has no visable cuts.
Should a cop just not ask or investigate the situation? I mean, its just a T-Shirt.
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy

Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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still waiting 4 zappa...
use the ACLU bust card for instructions on how to deal w/ police...
if you refuse to consent to a vehicle search..then you may be detained until a warrant can be issued and/or a probable cause firmly established (ie dog sniff)...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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