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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: cougercruiser]
    #5878489 - 07/19/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cougercruiser said:
what? dude......these people are ignorant....why would you keep fucking if your dieing? like africa for example......wtf? why are you spreading more aids? cambodia....why do you keep reproducing when you have no food?.....these are stupid ppl.....what so you can keep your race up to par? or so you can make shit worse for everyone els.....dude i work for a healthcare company....i get more people having babys than i get people who are going through hospice.



There's a common misconception that people in third world countries have more kids than they can afford to raise. The fact of the matter is that they can't afford not to have lots of kids. The cost of raising a kid is much cheaper in those countries, and since there are no child labor laws, the kid can actually start making money for the family at a young age. Also, without any sort of pension plan, people rely on their kids to take care of them in their old age. And not all of the kids will survive to adulthood, so they have to have many of them, just in case. That's why in developed nations like in Europe and the US, the fertility rate tends to drop. People don't need kids to support themselves, and in fact, having a child eventually becomes a financial burden rather than an asset. So most families only have 2-3 kids, if that.


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Offlinerelativexistance
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: Phred]
    #5878493 - 07/19/06 05:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Just some food for though about how about the government intervention topic, look at the space program and how it pretty much was necessary to have government activity to get off the ground. I mean it is a government program, but back in the 60's I doubt you could find a private organization willing and able to put as much money into it as the gov did. There are a plentiful amount of discoveries and advancements that were brought about from that program. Now I'm not saying that it is entirely necessary that the government created a program for space research to happen, however without that initial government investment there is no doubt in my mind that we would have significantly less scientific research and information on space as well as of all its related research. What organization do you know today willing to spend billions of dollars on a single space launch with no immediately foreseable benefits?

Either way publicly funded researchs in-turn speeds private research and is sometimes a major driving force. Especially in areas where the research requires huge overheads i.e. aeronautical, space, weapons, defense...


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Offlinecougercruiser
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: Silversoul]
    #5878513 - 07/19/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

these people have 2-3 kids per person? that twice the person!....ok the government in these countrys are fucked up BUT they put themselves in that situation. Why is it that other states uk,us,china,australia,canada can have a great way of governing or keeping there people alive and paid? shit iraq has grips of oil, they should be slangin that shit like crazy and makin bank.

Im not really even talking about other countrys im talking about here, california...the US! i dont know where you live but i cant get on the bus without somones butt crack being in my face or having to sit next to the bum thats jerkin off next to me because its so overpopulated! people like my fuckin mom (which i hate) having fuckin 8 kids! why? so she can live on wellfare! these people should be shot and killed!


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: cougercruiser]
    #5878553 - 07/19/06 05:40 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

cougercruiser said:
these people have 2-3 kids per person?



Not unless people have suddenly gained the ability to reproduce asexually. I'm talking about 2-3 kids per couple. And that, of course, is not counting those who have 1 or no kids.

Quote:

Im not really even talking about other countrys im talking about here, california...the US!



The US does not have a population problem.

Quote:

i dont know where you live but i cant get on the bus without somones butt crack being in my face or having to sit next to the bum thats jerkin off next to me because its so overpopulated!



I live in California too, and I haven't seen that problem so much. But maybe it's because California has shitty public transportation.

Quote:

people like my fuckin mom (which i hate) having fuckin 8 kids! why? so she can live on wellfare! these people should be shot and killed!



Well, I wouldn't go that far, but I do see the need for the welfare system to be reformed.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: relativexistance]
    #5878580 - 07/19/06 05:49 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Just some food for though about how about the government intervention topic, look at the space program and how it pretty much was necessary to have government activity to get off the ground.




What's your point?




Phred


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Offlinerelativexistance
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: Phred]
    #5878620 - 07/19/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:

It is a common delusion of Collectivists that if government didn't do certain things those things wouldn't be done at all.





My point is if it werent for the government intervention how would all of the research that was a result of the space program have existed without such a large organization to back it. Not that it is impossible, just highly improbable, and would have taken much longer to get off the ground.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: relativexistance]
    #5878665 - 07/19/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

My point is if it werent for the government intervention how would all of the research that was a result of the space program have existed without such a large organization to back it. Not that it is impossible, just highly improbable, and would have taken much longer to get off the ground.




Yes, I understand that. How does this speculation of yours (which I will concede is almost certainly accurate speculation) show that one of the legitimate functions of government is the funding of space exploration?

Let's take the prohibition of alcohol (which we all agree was NOT a legitimate government function) as an example. It is undeniable that some good came from it. Vast fortunes were made which otherwise would not have been, some people swore off alcohol for good who would not otherwise have done so, thus lengthening their lives and making the lives of their loved ones more bearable, etc.

Same thing with the current prohibition of weed. There are a shit ton of otherwise unemployable folks making a decent living as dope dealers. What would all those people do if we could buy a pack of joints at the local weed store as easily as we currently buy a carton of beer at the local liquor store?

Just because some illegitimate actions of government lead to benefits for some people, this does not legitimize these actions.



Phred


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Offlinemikeownow
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: Phred]
    #5878759 - 07/19/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It is called research for a reason NobodyCares... How are we ever going to find anything out about it if we do not research it.


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Offlinerelativexistance
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: Phred]
    #5878808 - 07/19/06 07:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I wasn't really arguing whether said funding was legitimate, rather that sometimes in order for progress, government intervention is necessary.

If you want to argue the legitimacy of governmental actions thats a whole different topic than what I was referring to. One for which I still find funding research that potentially, and in its motives is meant to benefit public welfare, wholly legitimate.


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OfflineNobodyCares
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: mikeownow]
    #5878859 - 07/19/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mikeownow said:
It is called research for a reason NobodyCares... How are we ever going to find anything out about it if we do not research it.




My main point was the fact that we have real, definitive results with adult stem cells. Why not focus on improving the research there? I'm totally against everything that's inherent in the argument "the government should subsidize stem cell research." But it's just adding insult to injury to subsidize something that's delivered no results. Sure, we can research anything, but that doesn't mean that we have to keep funding avenues of research that have already been outperformed or have been proved to be dead ends.


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The story goes, or the way that I was told
There was a king that always felt too high and then he fell too low
And so he called all the wise men to the hall
And begged them for a gift to end the rises and the falls
But here’s the thing, they came back with a ring
It was simple and was plainly unbefitting of a king
Engraved in black, it had no front or back
But there were words around the band that said
Just know: This Too Shall Pass



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Offlinesplifner180
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: NobodyCares]
    #5879281 - 07/19/06 09:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

NobodyCares, find me anything peer-reviewed that asserts spending resources on embryonic stem cell research would be wasteful. I'm only asking for one.

splif


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Build a Do-It-Yourself Magnetic Stirrer in thirty minutes with no money.


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Invisiblekake
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: splifner180]
    #5879370 - 07/19/06 09:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I would respect his argument about the sacredness of life and the religious implications, thats his right to believe what he wants, but it contradicts his other actions.

i.e. sending 18 year olds to war to die for questionable causes is alright, but killing consciousless stem cells with ONE PURPOSE - to save lives - is somehow sacreligious?

suck a fucking cock, BUSH


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The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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Invisiblekake
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: kake]
    #5879379 - 07/19/06 09:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

don't reply with "well the 18 year olds have a choice"

they didnt have a choice to be born in the USA.


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Offlinemellowrubberduck
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: kake]
    #5879505 - 07/19/06 10:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It seems as if everyone just loves to hate Bush.
About the war: Bush didn't gather the intelligence himself, the other government groups did. If you were the president, and the CIA/NSA provided you with intel which was believed to be happening, would you look the other fucking way? You guys sicken me. Even in the upcoming elections, just because you hate Bush and the republicans (far right or not), don't vote Dem simply in spite, vote on the person, not the party.

And as far as stem cell research, we don't know *what* can be gathered, but we can only find out by *researching*. Personally, I'm glad he vetoed the bill. Everybody that is pissed because it didn't pass needs to stop. The research isn't going to stop, just the proposed funding of it (I believe it was by the taxpayers?). And, everyone that supports the research, I can safely assume is Pro Choice, not Pro Life, correct? Not a clean and direct connection, but close enough to put two and two together. These embryos are being grown *specifically* to be harvested. No, not *gathered to further medicinal science*, but *harvested*, as if it was a fucking corn field. They are the beginning of a human life (and I don't care who says they know when *life* starts, there's no damn way to say it happens at the actual birth just so people won't have a guilty conscience), and they should be treated as such, not be treated as another *thing*.

So, continue to have your negative opinion on Bush, don't support our troops (our SOLDIERS for christ's sake), and throw all your leftist ideas around, but I've hopefully balanced this board out a little bit with more than one party's opinion.


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Offlinesplifner180
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: mellowrubberduck]
    #5880998 - 07/20/06 10:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

mellowrubberduck writes:
"About the war: Bush didn't gather the intelligence himself, the other government groups did."

Straw man. Bush repeatedly cherrypicked the data that supported his claim, ignoring and rejecting the reams of data that flatly refuted the claims and dismissing (Shinseki) or in some cases retaliating (Wilson/Plame) against those who publically disagreed with him.

Bush was told repeatedly that the Niger claim was bunk. He used it anyway.

Bush was told repeatedly that the so-called mobile weapons labs couldn't possibly be used for manufacture of chemicals.

Bush was told that Curveball was a known liar and anything that came out of his mouth was suspect and yet we based the entire claim of WMD on his say-so.

"Even in the upcoming elections, just because you hate Bush and the republicans (far right or not), don't vote Dem simply in spite, vote on the person, not the party."

The Republicans are facing a slaughter in November because they, almost without exception, supported Bush in this war. How many 5-star generals have come out and said this war has been mismanaged?

I could talk about Hailiburton, I could bring up the lack of troops, I could bring up the claim that this war would cost us ...what was the claim? $150 MILLION?

In fact it's much shorter for you to explain to us what Bush did correctly in the last six years.

Wait, I take that back. LET'S talk about the failures.

Didn't bother to build a legitimate coalition. Poorly armored humvees. Ignoring the plans of the Army War College. The aforementioned refusal to acknolwedge the overwhelming evidence that there were no WMD. Said our troops would be greeted as liberators. Told us Iraq would pay for the war. Trusted Chalabi. Threw UN inspectors out of Iraq while they were still doing their jobs (and subsequently claimed that Saddam threw them out). OVER AND OVER AGAIN, linked Saddam to 9/11.

Wait, I'm not done.

"Mission accomplished" two years ago with our troops still dying every day. No-bid contracts for Haliburton, a company that has been found guilty of over-charging. No plan for the occupation of Iraq. Diverted $700 million into invasion planning without informing Congress.

Warrantless wiretapping. Opposed creation of the 9/11 commission. Ignored an August 6, 2001 PDB entitled "Bin laden Determined to Attack in U.S." Completely ignored repeated Clinton staff warnings that al Queda would need to be Bush's #1 priority. Cut FBI funds by 66% post-9/11.

Hold on, there's more.

His Middle East foreign policy (he doesn't have one) is now exploding in his face. Thinks democracy is good unless it elects Hugo Chávez, President of Venezuela, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran or Hamas in Palestine. Oops.

On Bush's watch, North Korea -- a country that actually DOES present a threat to the world -- has a larger nuclear weapons capability than 6 years ago, shows no signs of abating and Bush still refuses to change his tactics toward Kim Jong Il.

Dude, how much longer do I have to go on? There's plenty more...

Bush claimed he'd make 1.8 million new jobs by the end of 2003 and 5.5 million new jobs by 2004. IIRC he's up to about 200,000 new jobs created. He's racked up $8 TRILLION in debt. So much for fiscal conservatism. But he's passed tax cuts that are helping the very rich so...

Underfunded No Child Left Behind. It's a joke. Said he'd increase Pell Grants while campaigning. Didn't. Under-funded a program to help disadvantaged kids by $7.2 billion.

Not only did I cherry-pick the larger mistakes from the list of Bush fuckups, I haven't even gotten to health care or the environment yet.

"And as far as stem cell research, we don't know *what* can be gathered, but we can only find out by *researching*. Personally, I'm glad he vetoed the bill."

It doesn't really matter. Come the November elections there will be enough Democrats to override the veto.

"And, everyone that supports the research, I can safely assume is Pro Choice, not Pro Life, correct?"

I'm pro-choice but I have two close friends who are extremely religious, pro-life and think that we should have federal funding of embryonic stem cells.

"Not a clean and direct connection, but close enough to put two and two together."

No, but it was fun watching you try.

"These embryos are being grown *specifically* to be harvested."

You mean these clumps of tissue with no nervous system? Those?

And, to answer you directly, you're wrong. The legislation that was vetoed only refers to lines that already exist. If we don't have this research, those cells will simply be discarded.

Your "culture of life" somehow sees more value in throwing them out then in using them to possibly save lives. This would be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous and tragic.

"So, continue to have your negative opinion on Bush"

Aw, crap. I need your permission?

"...don't support our troops (our SOLDIERS for christ's sake)..."

A conservative myth. I don't think I've ever heard a single one of my liberal friends say anything bad about the troops. Except for the ones being brought up on charges of murder and rape. And nobody has implied that they comprise anything but a fraction of the troops.

About 2/3rds of this country feel that the way to actually help the troops is to return them to their families. I know that's a crazy, crazy idea but...

"...and throw all your leftist ideas around, but I've hopefully balanced this board out a little bit with more than one party's opinion. "

Presenting an opinion and making a solid argument are two very different things.

splif


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Build a Do-It-Yourself Magnetic Stirrer in thirty minutes with no money.


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Offlinemellowrubberduck
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: splifner180]
    #5882923 - 07/20/06 09:50 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not exactly sure how you concluded that *Bush repeatedly cherrypicked the data that supported his claim* unless you were with him at his side during the time, and I know that I'm gonna stick with what I believe, and the same goes for you, but there's no way that the government is going to tell everything that goes on behind the scenes. Though my memory may not be good for five years back, I thought it was the democrats, also, that supported the idea of going in because of the WMD idea. And about the five star generals. It's quite easy to look back on things now and say what should have been done different, but with all the news I watched, I never saw a five star general on ANY major news station stating that we shouldn't butt our heads in. Sure, I never heard them support it firsthand, but if it was a real problem to avoid then we would have heard something. *The Republicans are facing a slaughter in November because they, almost without exception, supported Bush in this war. How many 5-star generals have come out and said this war has been mismanaged?* It was the majority that supported the war in the beginning, but due to the indecision of the democrats, most changed their opinions after time. I don't really blame them for changing sides though. Do you really believe that Saddam was better left off to destroy his own country, to rule over every aspect of his people's lives? Well shit, maybe he should still be the ruler. I think we should have taken him out of power. But after a couple years when we finally got him out, that's pretty much all we did. All we are doing now is fingering ourselves. That is one side I do agree on. Either we need to start accomplishing something instead of doing patrols, we need to get the fuck out. We don't need that many soldiers over there, because all we need are special forces to get the dirty work done. But to say that we shouldn't have been over there in the first place is a bit misguided. It's not the decision of war, it's the approach to war that I disagree with.

Also, you can take those statistics of Bush ignoring 9/11 warnings and do whatever you want with them, because we will never know what exactly happened. Even with the eventual formation of the commission, I never found anything important that they came up with.

*I could bring up the lack of troops*
Lack of troops? The last time I heard (especially with my older brother in the Marines) we had all the troops we needed. There's no reason to have a draft for a situation like this (Bush wouldn't enstate a draft though), so the *lack of troops* is obsurd. Even the funding that Bush proposed to provide the soldiers armor, supplies, anything else imperative, the Democrats on the whole voted against it, so any funding that Bush wanted couldn't be supplied. Neither side is perfect, stop trying to make the Rep. side evil and the Dem. side heavenly.

*Bush claimed he'd make 1.8 million new jobs by the end of 2003 and 5.5 million new jobs by 2004. IIRC he's up to about 200,000 new jobs created. He's racked up $8 TRILLION in debt. So much for fiscal conservatism. But he's passed tax cuts that are helping the very rich so...* The debt is attributed to the fucking war. Yea it's a shitload of money that could've been controlled if we finally cleaned up what we went in to do, but he didn't accumulate the debt by his own spending habits. I know nothing about the creation of jobs, but I do know that our economy has seen better days. Tax cuts were created for the rich because people with that much money are the heads of big business. If these guys aren't spending as much on taxes, theoretically they'll put the money back into their business. That might not make much sense and even I sometimes find it hard to understand, but it is starting to bring the deficit down, as slow as it might be.

*Ignoring the plans of the Army War College. The aforementioned refusal to acknolwedge the overwhelming evidence that there were no WMD. Said our troops would be greeted as liberators. Told us Iraq would pay for the war. Trusted Chalabi. Threw UN inspectors out of Iraq while they were still doing their jobs (and subsequently claimed that Saddam threw them out). OVER AND OVER AGAIN, linked Saddam to 9/11.* Eventually after some time he should've gotten off the fact that there were no WMDs, but maybe that was just an excuse so we wouldn't have to pull out right away. Not saying I agree, but I wouldn't be able to think of another way to stay over. Other than that, I couldn't agree more with that statement.

**Mission accomplished* two years ago with our troops still dying every day.* Already covered that. Didn't hear about the other things in that paragraph.

*I'm pro-choice but I have two close friends who are extremely religious, pro-life and think that we should have federal funding of embryonic stem cells.
No, but it was fun watching you try.*

That's good to hear. And I suppose you didn't try to think about what I was saying because you're too caught up in your hogwash. Pro-Choice people believe (and deny it if you want but it's obvious to figure out why) that it's alright to choose to abort a baby because they're not really living. With this idea, and the connection I made that you chose not to see, the assumption can be made that Pro-Choice people believe it's alright to take these stem cells and put them under a microscope because they're not really living. It's surprising to hear that your religious pals think that they're not really living, but I suppose it's all a matter of opinion and relies less on morals (or whatever else you want to call it). If you really don't believe in something but say it anyway, I guess it's easier to be running with the mob instead of opposing them (the outstanding numbers that hate Bush is overwhelming), and maybe I'm just sick of hearing people say the same thing over and over.

*Your *culture of life* somehow sees more value in throwing them out then in using them to possibly save lives.* There would be no need to throw them out if they weren't meant for harvesting. They would actually become something, not a science experiment with no guaranteed results (exactly what you claim you wanted to see with the WAR).

*Underfunded No Child Left Behind. It's a joke. Said he'd increase Pell Grants while campaigning. Didn't. Under-funded a program to help disadvantaged kids by $7.2 billion.* I don't know much about the program, but I do have an opinion from what I've heard. Supposedly the school system was going to get all the funding they needed to make sure kids learn and even if they didn't learn they would still be passed to the next grade. Most everybody up to this point in time that went through school learned what they were supposed to, and if not, they got no reward. I believe that's a better system, not rewarding kids for being lazy fuck-ups. It should go onto the parents' shoulders to raise their kids to do their work, not on the government. So, I don't agree with the program and am actually glad it was underfunded.

*Aw, crap. I need your permission?* Not with that sarcastic piss poor attitude you don't.

*A conservative myth. I don't think I've ever heard a single one of my liberal friends say anything bad about the troops. Except for the ones being brought up on charges of murder and rape. And nobody has implied that they comprise anything but a fraction of the troops.*
I guess I just live in a shitty state. Everybody that I know buys into all the media bias and takes their opinion as their own. Everytime I ask these guys why they say what they say, they just mimick what the reporter's say. Because two soldiers go absolutely crazy and rape and execute civilians doesn't for a second mean that all soldiers are like that. But because the news is passing that information along like they are, it's absorbed by these lonely souls. I'm glad to hear that you don't think like that, but in this state, if you don't think like that, you're the *freak* who deserves no opinion.

*Presenting an opinion and making a solid argument are two very different things.* It's too bad I don't get to hear your arrogance more often.


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InvisibleBlutjager
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: mellowrubberduck]
    #5882994 - 07/20/06 10:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)



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Invisiblegdman
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: Blutjager]
    #5883064 - 07/20/06 10:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The frozen embryos in question are from fertility clinics, having nothing to do with stem cell research, after being held for a certain length of time they get discarded as medical waste. The bill was for funding research on these cells that are destined for the dump, in order to possibly make something useful out of the cells, as opposed to just turning them into medical waste. This was why there was so much support for the bill, from choicers and lifers alike. If these embryos were going to be made into something good, like say a child, they would have before this point. Now nothing good will come out of them, just more trash.

What about the existing lines you say? Well, if those lines were in good enough condition and in a large enough supply for real research to take place, this wouldn't be an issue, would it?


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Invisiblekake
The answer to1984 is 1776.
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Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 2,782
Loc: The 66th harmonic
Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: gdman]
    #5890715 - 07/23/06 02:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Exactly gdman.  I think its just Bush's way of seizing an opportunity to appease his constituents... in other words he vetoed the bill because most people are so uninformed about the issue that he can do it and all the outcry will fall into the Bush-hate pool that people tend to "auto-ignore" (like our friend mellowduck).  Sure the embryos are going to go to waste anyway, but I guess that's too much information for the general public to take in :wtf:

Bush has turned our country into a nightmare, through and through.  Don't turn a cheek because so many people hate Bush and you think its only because its some sort of popular psyche phenomenon. 

LIARS. CRIMINALS. MURDERERS.


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The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #5890737 - 07/23/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

dude, I AM Jesus, and I'm all for stem cell research. 


so BLAM!

:lol:


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