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Offlinesplifner180
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5878153 - 07/19/06 03:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Phred writes:
"I don't understand the fuss. The US government already funds stem cell research... with more dollars than any other country in the world. The US government does not prohibit embryonic stem cell research by anyone who wants to give it a shot -- they just won't (if Bush vetos the bill) increase federal funding for it. In actual fact, the federal government shouldn't be funding ANY research. That's not its job. "

Sure it is.

Governments step in to fund things that would not get done by capitalism. An easily-understood example is waste removal. If the government didn't prop up that profession, it wouldn't get done.

In this case the private sector has a vested interest in not working on it because it'll lead to cures, not better drugs. A parasite keeps its host alive for a reason. And big pharm would rather, like someone else pointed out, sell someone $1,200 a month in an AIDS drug cocktail for the next twenty years than have a cure for $10,000.

How much have we spent on that debacle called "Iraq?" Oh, here it is: $279,000,000,000 and counting. But that's only so far. And you're telling me that our government doesn't have a responsibility to provide, say, one HUNDREDTH of that ($2.8 billion) to research that shows great potential for curing things like, say, cancer.

And here's the part where it gets funny...

It's done because some lunatics with invisible friends and an Armageddon fetish believe that a bundle of cells with no nervous system whatsoever is, morally speaking, as much a human as you or I.

splif


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First Grow: Ecuador -> LC -> HPoo/Straw -> Monotub
Build a Do-It-Yourself Magnetic Stirrer in thirty minutes with no money.


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OfflineNobodyCares
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: splifner180]
    #5878169 - 07/19/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

splifner180 said:[
In this case the private sector has a vested interest in not working on it because it'll lead to cures, not better drugs. A parasite keeps its host alive for a reason. And big pharm would rather, like someone else pointed out, sell someone $1,200 a month in an AIDS drug cocktail for the next twenty years than have a cure for $10,000.

How much have we spent on that debacle called "Iraq?" Oh, here it is: $279,000,000,000 and counting. But that's only so far. And you're telling me that our government doesn't have a responsibility to provide, say, one HUNDREDTH of that ($2.8 billion) to research that shows great potential for curing things like, say, cancer.





Okay let's break this down. Pharmaseutical companies don't want to cure diseases because it's better for them to just treat them? Yeah, because in the past capitolism has failed so miserably at funding the cures to things like polio and smallpox, not to mention the chicken pox vaccine that came out in the '90s. In response to your war comment, yes the govenment has every right to spend money on war and not subsidizing private research. You know what that's called? Socialism, because it's not the government's job to just throw money at everything to better the world. It's the government's job to make sure people like you and I can sleep comfortably at night knowing that psychopaths like Saddam aren't out there cooking up ICMBs. Not to mention the fact that we're actively dissuading those islamo-fascists with every bomb dropped in their region. I don't agree with how we got there, but open your eyes man, we're there now.


--------------------
The story goes, or the way that I was told
There was a king that always felt too high and then he fell too low
And so he called all the wise men to the hall
And begged them for a gift to end the rises and the falls
But here’s the thing, they came back with a ring
It was simple and was plainly unbefitting of a king
Engraved in black, it had no front or back
But there were words around the band that said
Just know: This Too Shall Pass



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: NobodyCares]
    #5878173 - 07/19/06 03:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I love how righties throw around the word socialism without having a clue what it means. Please explain what government funding of research has to do with the workers owning the means of production.


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OfflineNobodyCares
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: Silversoul]
    #5878185 - 07/19/06 03:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Okay, I'll admit I got carried away there. However, you have to admit that the government subsidizing everything, education, public research and big corporations included, sounds a little like the basic idea of socialism. Now, I don't think we're there yet, and in fact I think that for the most part the majority of the economy is left alone (as it should be), however it just gets me all anxious any time people talk about just throwing money at a problem as if that will solve it. The problem with embryonic research isn't that it's not funded. The problem with embryonic stem cell research is the research.


--------------------
The story goes, or the way that I was told
There was a king that always felt too high and then he fell too low
And so he called all the wise men to the hall
And begged them for a gift to end the rises and the falls
But here’s the thing, they came back with a ring
It was simple and was plainly unbefitting of a king
Engraved in black, it had no front or back
But there were words around the band that said
Just know: This Too Shall Pass



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OfflineNobodyCares
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: Silversoul]
    #5878186 - 07/19/06 03:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I love how righties throw around the word socialism without having a clue what it means. Please explain what government funding of research has to do with the workers owning the means of production.




By the way, I was entirely correct in my use of the word socialism. You have communism and socialism confused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism


--------------------
The story goes, or the way that I was told
There was a king that always felt too high and then he fell too low
And so he called all the wise men to the hall
And begged them for a gift to end the rises and the falls
But here’s the thing, they came back with a ring
It was simple and was plainly unbefitting of a king
Engraved in black, it had no front or back
But there were words around the band that said
Just know: This Too Shall Pass



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: NobodyCares]
    #5878203 - 07/19/06 03:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

NobodyCares said:
Okay, I'll admit I got carried away there. However, you have to admit that the government subsidizing everything, education, public research and big corporations included, sounds a little like the basic idea of socialism.



No, I don't have to admit it, because it's not true. It's simply how modern welfare capitalism works. The alternative, laissez-faire capitalism, was tried in the 19th century, and resulted in all kinds of horrible conditions for the workers and the poor. That's why things changed.

As for "throwing money" at the problem, that's a widely right-wing catchphrase to try and simplify the problem. In the case of stem cell research, we're "throwing money" exactly where it needs to be thrown. The problem with stem cell research is exactly that: a lack of funding. The market isn't providing the necessary resource for this research, so that's where the government steps in.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: NobodyCares]
    #5878207 - 07/19/06 03:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

NobodyCares said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
I love how righties throw around the word socialism without having a clue what it means. Please explain what government funding of research has to do with the workers owning the means of production.




By the way, I was entirely correct in my use of the word socialism. You have communism and socialism confused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism



Nope, I was right.

"As an economic system, socialism is usually associated with state or collective ownership of the means of production."


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OfflineNobodyCares
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: Silversoul]
    #5878221 - 07/19/06 03:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Your point about conditions in the early 1800s is partially correct. I will agree that during the early years of laissez-fare capitalism the system had its flaws. However, the great thing about the economy is that it tends to correct itself. Great capitalists such as Rockefeller and Ford created superb conditions for their workers with absolutely no intervention from the government in the same time period.

In response to your comment about embryonic stem cell research. Yes, of course the market isn't going to support it. Would you buy a horse if there are cars on the market? Of course not. Adult stem cell research is more promising, better understood and has produced solid results. The market is not going to support a dead end, because unlike government spending, the market can react to crappy research as it sees fit.


--------------------
The story goes, or the way that I was told
There was a king that always felt too high and then he fell too low
And so he called all the wise men to the hall
And begged them for a gift to end the rises and the falls
But here’s the thing, they came back with a ring
It was simple and was plainly unbefitting of a king
Engraved in black, it had no front or back
But there were words around the band that said
Just know: This Too Shall Pass



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OfflineNobodyCares
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: Silversoul]
    #5878226 - 07/19/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, state control of the means of production. If the government controls the funding for the product known as embryonic stem cell research, they control the means of production. Namely, they have say in what can and cannot be researched, and who can and cannot research it. How is this not akin to socialism?


--------------------
The story goes, or the way that I was told
There was a king that always felt too high and then he fell too low
And so he called all the wise men to the hall
And begged them for a gift to end the rises and the falls
But here’s the thing, they came back with a ring
It was simple and was plainly unbefitting of a king
Engraved in black, it had no front or back
But there were words around the band that said
Just know: This Too Shall Pass



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: NobodyCares]
    #5878249 - 07/19/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

In response to your comment about embryonic stem cell research. Yes, of course the market isn't going to support it. Would you buy a horse if there are cars on the market? Of course not. Adult stem cell research is more promising, better understood and has produced solid results. The market is not going to support a dead end, because unlike government spending, the market can react to crappy research as it sees fit.



Wrong, wrong, wrong. Anyone who understands what stem cells are can understand why embryonic stem cells are more promising. A stem cell is a cell that can become another kind of cell, such as a muscle cell, a nerve cell, or a skin cell. Now, we maintain stem cells throughout our life, but in adults they are much more limited in terms of the kind of cells they can become. An embryonic stem cell can become absolutely any kind of cell. That is why they hold more promise. The reason why adult stem cell research has had more resuts is...<drumroll>...it's being funded!

The market is a great way of distributing resources, but the problem is that it's short-sighted, and profit-oriented. Now, I'm not saying the profit motive is always bad. In fact, it's usually a good thing. But there are some things that are good for society that just aren't profitable, and in some cases, the profit motive can be harmful, and create perverse motives. That's why sometimes the government needs to step in.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: NobodyCares]
    #5878251 - 07/19/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

NobodyCares said:
Yeah, state control of the means of production. If the government controls the funding for the product known as embryonic stem cell research, they control the means of production. Namely, they have say in what can and cannot be researched, and who can and cannot research it. How is this not akin to socialism?



I don't think you quite understand the concept of "means of production."


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OfflineNobodyCares
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: Silversoul]
    #5878299 - 07/19/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I agree that embryonic stem cells may be more promising, however I think that there's no reason to fund them just on pie-in-the-sky claims that one day there is a possibility that they may cure cancer, or Parkinson's, etc. However the fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no evidence that this is the case. There is not a human trial to point to. There is not even a successful animal trial. It's easy to say that one day embryonic stem cells will cure everything, but that's just like saying that my toenail clippings may, eventually, one day, with enough research, become the cure to baldness. However, it's easy to see that with no evidence to prove me right, I may just be another researcher hoping to get paid dicking around with toenail clippings.

In response to means of production, let's break it down. Feel free to correct me if I am misinterpreting any of these.

"Means" I think can safely be taken to mean the method of production, i.e. "a procedure for attaining an object". That object is production. Production is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as "The action of producing, bringing forth, making, or causing..." Okay, so now when I speak of the means of production, I am speaking of the methods by which a certain good or service is brought forth, made or produced. Now, when the government subsidizes something such as embryonic stem cell research, it becomes responsible for funding the project because there is no influx of funds from the market. Thus, the government is doing things such as, paying salaries, buying equipment, etc. Because of this, the government has the ability to say "If you do X we will continue to pay your salary, or buy you computers. " Because of this, we see a relationship form, namely the government can change the meaning of X as they see fit. Now, under a socialist regime, the government is free to do just that. They have a method of control which stems from the monetary power vested in them by the people under their government. As such, they control the money, and have the ability to with hold said money from people such as, let's say researchers. Now, if controlling funds is akin to controlling the means of production, (the methods by which a certain good or service is brought forth, made or produced) which it clearly is, how is the government controlling the funding for the means of production for embryonic stem cell research not socialism?


--------------------
The story goes, or the way that I was told
There was a king that always felt too high and then he fell too low
And so he called all the wise men to the hall
And begged them for a gift to end the rises and the falls
But here’s the thing, they came back with a ring
It was simple and was plainly unbefitting of a king
Engraved in black, it had no front or back
But there were words around the band that said
Just know: This Too Shall Pass



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OfflinePhred
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: Konnrade]
    #5878337 - 07/19/06 04:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Konnrade writes:

Quote:

You think so? May I ask why?




Sure. It's because the federal government is allowed to do only what the Constitution specifically allows it to do.

Quote:

The government has in the past funded lots of very important basic research.




The government has done all kinds of things in the past. Doesn't mean it should have. Prohibition of alcohol springs to mind immediately, closely followed by prohibition of other naturally occurring substances, involvement in welfare schemes, the space race.... it's a long list.

Quote:

Private groups are less keen on putting money into basic research, since the chance and nature of the payoff is unknown they tend to be apprehensive of it.




If it is true that people exercising their own considered judgment have come to that conclusion, this is all the more reason not to take money from them against against their will to throw at something with an unknown chance of payoff.

Quote:

The way I've heard that things work well is that the government will do basic research that private research might not have wanted to do, and then private research can use the basic research results and build/expand upon it once there's a stable foundation for profitable endeavor.




Not everything one hears is factual.



Phred


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: NobodyCares]
    #5878348 - 07/19/06 04:35 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I'll concede the point about the means of production, if only for the fact that it's not worth debating. In the end, it doesn't matter if you call it socialism or capitalism or what have you. All that matters is the consequences, which, if we're speaking about government funding of research, has been largely positive.

As for the stem cell issue, we have seen positive results when it comes to adult stem cells, and we know that embryonic stem cells are more versatile than adult stem cells, so it follows that we can get even greater results from them. There is ample precedent for believing that this research will bring about great results by increasing our understanding of human biology. I'm sure there's already been sufficient research on toenail clippings. You act as if the researchers who are predicting these results are just pulling these predictions out of their ass, which just isn't the case. They are making these claims because there is sufficient evidence upon which to make such predictions.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: splifner180]
    #5878353 - 07/19/06 04:37 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Governments step in to fund things that would not get done by capitalism. An easily-understood example is waste removal. If the government didn't prop up that profession, it wouldn't get done.




Nonsense. Long before governments got involved in collecting garbage and trucking it out to the dump, individuals were taking garbage to the dump.

I live in the Dominican Republic. There is no government-run garbage collection service here. We pay private contractors to pick it up, or take it to the dump ourselves. New York city did the same up until at least the late Eighties and for all I know may still be doing it.

It is a common delusion of Collectivists that if government didn't do certain things those things wouldn't be done at all.




Phred


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Offlinesplifner180
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: NobodyCares]
    #5878384 - 07/19/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

NobodyCares writes:
"Okay let's break this down. Pharmaseutical companies don't want to cure diseases because it's better for them to just treat them? Yeah, because in the past capitolism has failed so miserably at funding the cures to things like polio and smallpox, not to mention the chicken pox vaccine that came out in the '90s."

Ok, let's break that down.

Polio, a viral paralytic disease discovered around 1840, was eradicated chiefly by the World Health Organization and The Rotary Foundation of Rotary International. The WHO's mission statement includes "the attainment by all peoples of the highest possible level of health."

WHO's funding comes from two sources: assessed contributions from member states and voluntary contributions from members [countries] and others.

Damn socialists. Sounds terrible.

Hey, maybe you've heard of something called a 40-hour week? Weekends? No? You can thank the pinko commie labor unions for that little gem.

But let's get back to your analysis...

Smallpox, guess what? WHO again.

You sarcastically wrote, "...in the past capitolism has failed so miserably at funding the cures to things like polio and smallpox..." But the fact is that capitolism has precisely jack and shit to do with curing these diseases.

Socialism did, though.

And chickenpox vaccine? You've got cancer in the same ballpark as chickenpox? Seriously?

"In response to your war comment, yes the govenment has every right to spend money on war and not subsidizing private research."

Whoever agrees with you deserves what they get. =)

"You know what that's called? Socialism, because it's not the government's job to just throw money at everything to better the world."

And it wasn't the good samaritan's job to help the injured man. Imagine that. Helping someone even when you didn't have to.

Sounds terrible.

" It's the government's job to make sure people like you and I can sleep comfortably at night knowing that psychopaths like Saddam aren't out there cooking up ICMBs."

Oh, right. Saddam. I remember him. He's the guy we sold all those chemicals to.

Saddam Hussein, the guy with the mobile weapons labs.

Saddam Hussein, the guy who could hit the continental U.S. within 45 minutes.

Saddam Hussein, the guy with stockpiles of chemical weapons near Tikrit.

Saddam Hussein, the guy who tried to purchase yellowcake uranium from Niger.

Tell me, NC, is compulsive lying a function of psychosis?

Yes, Saddam was a sociopath. For some reason you seem to think that if I don't agree with Bush, I do agree with Saddam. Why is that?

"Not to mention the fact that we're actively dissuading those islamo-fascists with every bomb dropped in their region."

Really? Dissuaded? You think so? Does it occur to you that it's moderatism that both Bush and Hezbollah despise? War is pretty much what Hezbollah wants. It's like a recruitment open house.

"I don't agree with how we got there, but open your eyes man, we're there now. "

Whether we're already there or not is hardly germane to the question of whether it's a good idea. Whether it's succeeding is more useful.

"Now, I don't think we're there [a socialist state] yet, and in fact I think that for the most part the majority of the economy is left alone (as it should be)..."

Left alone?

You have clean water due to progressive clean water standards.

Your medicine is safe to use because there are regulatory boards that make sure it works.

Your breakfast is safe due to laws regulating the meat packing industry.

The bottles of shampoo and soap in your shower are labeled so you know what's in them. Guess whose idea that was?

The air you breathe on your way to work is clean because some tree-hugger fought for clean air laws. Companies don't much care for clean air laws.

Maybe you take a train or a bus to work. Subsidized.

If you ever get hurt on the job you have disability insurance to make sure you don't lose your home, and you can still eat. Socialism to the core.

Your bank account is indemnified from being wiped out due to banking scandals and Ken Lay types.

Are you beginning to see a theme here?

Ah, I'll just quote the rest.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.

Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn’t want to make rural loans. The house didn’t have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republican’s would still be sitting in the dark)

He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn’t have to. After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.

He turns on a radio talk show, the host’s keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn’t tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day) Joe agrees, “We don’t need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I’m a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have”.


So to answer your assertion that "for the most part the majority of the economy is left alone (as it should be)," no, you're dead wrong.

"However, the great thing about the economy is that it tends to correct itself."

That's an odd way of saying "what's good for the economy is inherently good for humans."

Maybe we should ditch the GDP (Gross Domestic Product) and measure our success as a country with the GDH (Gross Domestic Happiness).

splif


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First Grow: Ecuador -> LC -> HPoo/Straw -> Monotub
Build a Do-It-Yourself Magnetic Stirrer in thirty minutes with no money.


Edited by splifner180 (07/19/06 04:51 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: splifner180]
    #5878410 - 07/19/06 04:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe we should ditch the GDP (Gross Domestic Product) and measure our success as a country with the GDH (Gross Domestic Happiness).



I'm a fan of the GPI myself.


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Offlinecougercruiser
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: splifner180]
    #5878428 - 07/19/06 04:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i dont know about you people but im not looking foward to seeing the human population grow anymore....i cant even get to work in the morning cuz there are so many fucking idots on the freeway with a cell phone stuck to their ear. Hasnt anyone noticed how many fucking people there are>? and how fast we are multiplying!!!!!


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: cougercruiser]
    #5878436 - 07/19/06 05:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The largest concentration of human growth is in the third world, where many people can't afford quality medical treatment anyway. The best way to help the population problem is to reduce poverty(take that, Malthus!).


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Offlinecougercruiser
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Re: derr i'm bush i love jesus, gonna veto stem cell bill derrrrr [Re: Silversoul]
    #5878470 - 07/19/06 05:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thomas Robert. 1766-183
British economist who wrote An Essay on the Principle of Population (1798), arguing that population tends to increase faster than food supply, with inevitably disastrous results, unless the increase in population is checked by moral restraints or by war, famine, and disease.

what? dude......these people are ignorant....why would you keep fucking if your dieing? like africa for example......wtf? why are you spreading more aids? cambodia....why do you keep reproducing when you have no food?.....these are stupid ppl.....what so you can keep your race up to par? or so you can make shit worse for everyone els.....dude i work for a healthcare company....i get more people having babys than i get people who are going through hospice.

cheack out the human population in 1900 compared to now? thats a huge difference! and thats only 100years of ower existance.....personally i think we should bust a china move and have it where couples can have only one kid.


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