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Offlinelonestar2004
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Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco
    #5875439 - 07/18/06 09:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco

By LISA LEFF

The Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO

The San Francisco Board of Supervisors voted unanimously Tuesday to make the city the nation's first to provide all residents with health care, approving a plan that would give adults access to medical services regardless of their immigration or employment status.

Financed by local government, mandatory contributions from employers and income-adjusted premiums, the universal care plan would cover the cost of everything from checkups, prescription drugs and X-rays to ambulance rides, blood tests and operations.

Unlike health insurance, however, it would not pay for any services participants seek outside San Francisco. Instead, residents would receive care at existing clinics and public hospitals and from doctors who already participate in an HMO for low- and middle-income clients.

With backing from both Mayor Gavin Newsom and all 11 supervisors, the so-called Health Access Plan proved to be a politically popular concept in liberal San Francisco despite unmitigated opposition from the business community.

"What feels very good is the full board and the mayor getting on board," said Supervisor Tom Ammiano, who first championed the idea of making employers pay for some part of their workers' medical costs. "That says the political will is there to make it happen."

To offset the estimated annual price tag of $200 million, firms with 20 or more workers would be required to spend $1.06 for each hour worked by an employee, and those with more than 100 workers would have to pay $1.60 per hour up to a monthly maximum of $180 per worker. Companies that already offer health coverage would still have to pay if their insurance contributions did not meet the city's funding levels.


The Board of Supervisors still needs to vote on the plan once more for it to become final. The ordinance adopted Tuesday calls for businesses with more than 50 employees to start participating starting next July, while it would take effect for enterprises with 20 or more workers in April 2008.

Michael O'Connor, a nightclub owner who serves on the San Francisco Small Business Commission, predicted that the "noble burden" of the mandate would keep businesses from locating in the city and make goods and services here more expensive as employers pass on the costs to customers.

O'Connor said many business owners were disappointed by Newsom's backing of the plan since the mayor got his start in business as the owner of a wine shop and several restaurants.

"One would think that someone who has owned and opened restaurants would be pretty clear on what the profit margin is, and how hard it is to get them open. A $5,000 licensing fee is difficult. A new $60,000 (health care) fee is disabling," he said.

Before the board vote, Newsom defended the proposal as a creative solution to the problem of securing decent health care for uninsured residents, noting that businesses would not be alone in defraying the costs. Of the $200 million, the city would provide $104 million and participants would contribute about $56 million.

"This is a moral debate as much as a political debate," Newsom said.

The initiative adopted Tuesday developed as a compromise between Newsom and Ammiano, who last year introduced legislation that would have required businesses to create health savings accounts for uninsured workers. In a nod to concerns from business, the final plan requires employees to work at least 12 hours a week to be eligible and has an opt-out provision for workers who are insured through their spouses.

Because fees would be adjusted on a sliding scale, city officials did not expect to see a rush of residents canceling their existing health insurance to take part in the city program.

Published: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 17:21 PDT
http://www.pe.com/ap_news/California2/CA_Universal_Health_Care_245707CA.shtml



These fucking idiots...I cant wait to watch this mess.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

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InvisibleFlop Johnson
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5875469 - 07/18/06 09:37 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It's all fun and games until you realize it isn't free!


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Flop Johnson]
    #5875708 - 07/18/06 10:29 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MoeRon said:
It's all fun and games until you realize it isn't free!




or until you realize you are dirt poor.


--------------------



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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5875822 - 07/18/06 11:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

These fucking idiots...I cant wait to watch this mess.




This is going to hurt SanFancisco in the long run. It will also lead to fewer hours for employees and harsh working conditions as employeers expect more from the employee in less time. The biggest problem will be more and more employees working off the books. Id expect to see allot more people doing this in the future.


They must have snuck this one in under the radar and voted on it quick.


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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: downforpot]
    #5875832 - 07/18/06 11:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Or until you realize that your paying much more for EVERYTHING than you did last year..

Prices are going to have to go up in restaurants and even services. Passing the cost of the failed health care system onto small businesses just isnt the answer. Its a lose lose situation.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: GabbaDj]
    #5876090 - 07/19/06 12:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well, cross san francisco off the list of places to go.

Ass, San Franciscoian for vagina.



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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: d33p]
    #5876247 - 07/19/06 01:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Well, cross san francisco off the list of places to go.




Huh... I wonder if they ever thought how this might effect tourism?


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InvisibleOJK
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5877186 - 07/19/06 10:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

god forbid poor people without insurance should be able to get healthcare


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Offlined33p
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: OJK]
    #5877218 - 07/19/06 10:50 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Odiumjunkie said:
god forbid poor people without insurance should be able to get healthcare




If only it were that simple.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5877238 - 07/19/06 10:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

God bless San Francisco.

Hey, so the boss might have to make do with a 25% payrise and just the 60 foot yacht this year. Fuck him, he'll scrape through somehow  :laugh:


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
    #5877248 - 07/19/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Actually, the boss will still get whatever pay raise and yacht he was going to get. The costs will be passed down to consumers in the form of higher prices.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
    #5877256 - 07/19/06 11:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
God bless San Francisco.

Hey, so the boss might have to make do with a 25% payrise and just the 60 foot yacht this year. Fuck him, he'll scrape through somehow  :laugh:






"To offset the estimated annual price tag of $200 million, firms with 20 or more workers would be required to spend $1.06 for each hour worked by an employee, and those with more than 100 workers would have to pay $1.60 per hour up to a monthly maximum of $180 per worker. "


If I had a San Francisco business with 21 employees, two of my workers are going to lose their jobs tomorrow.

Fuck them. They'll scrape by somehow.

This is the "Law of Unintended Consequences"...


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5877270 - 07/19/06 11:05 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
To offset the estimated annual price tag of $200 million, firms with 20 or more workers would be required to spend $1.06 for each hour worked by an employee, and those with more than 100 workers would have to pay $1.60 per hour up to a monthly maximum of $180 per worker. Companies that already offer health coverage would still have to pay if their insurance contributions did not meet the city's funding levels.






More punishment for being successful, if you've worked hard to create a large company now you have to pay for other people's healthcare too. If I had a company in San Fransisco and didn't want to shut it down and move it somewhere else, I would tell my employees that I could no longer afford to maintain a health insurance benefit package. Then let them have to deal with socialized medicine so then they would go to the politicians and show them how stupid they are.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #5877278 - 07/19/06 11:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Who's the idiot that came up with the 200 million price tag. Seems low.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Edited by lonestar2004 (07/19/06 11:08 AM)


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5877281 - 07/19/06 11:08 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Quote:

Alex213 said:
God bless San Francisco.

Hey, so the boss might have to make do with a 25% payrise and just the 60 foot yacht this year. Fuck him, he'll scrape through somehow  :laugh:






"To offset the estimated annual price tag of $200 million, firms with 20 or more workers would be required to spend $1.06 for each hour worked by an employee, and those with more than 100 workers would have to pay $1.60 per hour up to a monthly maximum of $180 per worker. "


If I had a San Francisco business with 21 employees, two of my workers are going to lose their jobs tomorrow.

Fuck them. They'll scrape by somehow.

This is the "Law of Unintended Consequences"...




At $180 a month? The manager probably blows more than that at the lapdancing club every week.


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
    #5877291 - 07/19/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:smirk:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #5877300 - 07/19/06 11:11 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

More punishment for being successful

Or punishment for not being fair to the poor bastards who actually make your money for you.

You can't just expect people to work like slaves for your benefit. You sometimes have to give a little back too.


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
    #5877344 - 07/19/06 11:25 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
More punishment for being successful

Or punishment for not being fair to the poor bastards who actually make your money for you.

You can't just expect people to work like slaves for your benefit. You sometimes have to give a little back too.




If you're working them like slaves, then they probably aren't going to work for you for very long. The entire point of having a company is to make money. It isn't giving back, it's taking from those who have earned and giving it to those who haven't earned. San Fransisco is trying to make the companies there charities. If you don't think you are being treatd fairly renegotiate your working conditions and that sometimes means leaving.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #5877381 - 07/19/06 11:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The entire point of having a company is to make money.

For who?

The director doesn't hire people for the fun of it. He hires them because he can't make money on his own. Why shouldn't the people he hires take a decent share of the money being made?

If you don't think you are being treatd fairly renegotiate your working conditions and that sometimes means leaving.

I don't think basic healthcare is such an outlandish idea. You're making money off the backs of these people. Expect to pay a little back instead of simply spending everything on your holiday home in Barbados.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5877496 - 07/19/06 12:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Who's the idiot that came up with the 200 million price tag. Seems low.




Well, there are more than three quarters of a million people officially living in San Francisco. So as long as the medical costs per resident remain around $250 each, no problem.

I don't know about you, but I require less than $250 in medical care each year, if the cost of prescription and non prescription meds is excluded and dental treatment and eye exams and glasses are not considered medical treatment.

What's the medical costs of giving birth in San Francisco, though? Couple thousand bucks, maybe? Say there is a birth rate of 10 per 1,000 a year in San Francisco (I have no idea how many children are born in SF each year but I deliberately lowballed it since there are so many gays in SF -- China's national birthrate which is the lowest in the world is 13.6 per 1,000) that would be 7,500 x $2,500 which would eat up about ten per cent of the 200 million figure mentioned.

I have no kids myself so I have no idea if total medical costs per birth are more than $2,500, though. By the time you add up all the prenatal exams and the actual birth itself, I can't see it coming to any less than that but for all I know it could be double that amount. Any parents here?




Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
    #5877504 - 07/19/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You can't just expect people to work like slaves for your benefit. You sometimes have to give a little back too.




It's called wages.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Redstorm]
    #5877526 - 07/19/06 12:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

That's "wage slavery", Redstorm. Get with the times.




Phred


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Phred]
    #5877682 - 07/19/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"As you are aware, San Francisco was one of the first epicenters of the AIDS epidemic and continues to be one of the hardest hit areas in the country. Today, there are an estimated 23,000 people living with HIV/AIDS in the San Francisco metropolitan area, one of the highest per capita rates of total AIDS cases in the country. San Francisco also has the tenth highest rate of new AIDS cases in the nation, and an increasing rate and prevalence of HIV infection. It is estimated that 1 in 40 San Franciscans is infected with HIV."
http://www.house.gov/pelosi/press/releases/Aug04/CutsInSFAIDSPreventionFund080604.html

"The last year has seen tremendous progress in the treatment of HIV/AIDS. Protease inhibitors, such as Crixivan or ritonavir, are a new class of anti-viral drugs that attack HIV in a different way. When used in combination with other drugs, such as AZT or 3TC, these treatments slow down or stop the virus' reproduction.

Unfortunately, these new drugs are very expensive—costing from $12,000 to well over $20,000 per person per year."

http://www.sfaf.org/aboutsfaf/outreach/index.html?april97/sf_drugs.html~frontpage


Just three hundred new AIDS patients without insurance could cost $50+ million a year.


So in 2 years when they find that they're spending MUCH more than projected, what do they do?

Make businesses pay more......


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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Invisiblespacemonster
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5878294 - 07/19/06 04:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The liberals mean well.. they just don't have a very good grasp of economic principles.

>"At $180 a month? The manager probably blows more than that at the lapdancing club every week."

That's $180 a month per employee.. Consider a business with 100 employees. That $180 per employee quickly becomes $18,000 per month. It might not put them out of business, but it's certainly solid motivation to relocate.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: spacemonster]
    #5879997 - 07/20/06 12:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Like I said, the directors will comfortably drop $18,000 a month at lapdancing clubs.

And remember if they have to pay healthcare in every state they wouldn't move. And even if they do move, moving to New York when all your customers and workers are in San Francisco is going to cause problems of it's own.


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5880121 - 07/20/06 01:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

San Francisco is lost. Pray for the earthquake and move far away from California. I'm glad that an appellate court, or was it the CA SC, struck down that idiotic handgun "ban".


--------------------
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Invisiblespacemonster
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
    #5881133 - 07/20/06 11:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Like I said, the directors will comfortably drop $18,000 a month at lapdancing clubs.




That's just silly. If the directors are making enough to blow that much, they're likely investing it as smart wealthy people are known to do. It certainly is more than anyone needs to live on, but who are we to tell them what to do with their money. If I bust my ass to create enough wealth for my family to live easily, I'll be damned if I'm gonna let some minimum wage loser tell me they deserve it more than I do and make me provide healthcare for all the lameasses who won't work for their own.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
And remember if they have to pay healthcare in every state they wouldn't move. And even if they do move, moving to New York when all your customers and workers are in San Francisco is going to cause problems of it's own.




A business can be moved in its entirety. Not a simple thing to do, but in cutting costs many manufacturers have moved out of the country while maintaining a base of operations within our borders. It's done to make investors happy, not bottom level employees.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: spacemonster]
    #5881245 - 07/20/06 12:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It certainly is more than anyone needs to live on, but who are we to tell them what to do with their money

If they make that money by themselves we can tell them nothing. If they make it off the backs of their employees we can tell them anything we want. If they don't like it, don't hire anyone and see how much money they can make then.

make me provide healthcare for all the lameasses who won't work for their own.


They are working for their own. The problem is the director is taking the money from them and paying it to himself.

A business can be moved in its entirety

Let them move then. People can always find minimum wage jobs with no healthcare. Who gives a rats ass if they move?


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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
    #5881269 - 07/20/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


It certainly is more than anyone needs to live on, but who are we to tell them what to do with their money

If they make that money by themselves we can tell them nothing. If they make it off the backs of their employees we can tell them anything we want. If they don't like it, don't hire anyone and see how much money they can make then.




Or they can hire people who will shut up and do their work for the wages they agreed on while signing a contract of employment. I'm sure there are people out there who need the money.

Quote:

make me provide healthcare for all the lameasses who won't work for their own.


They are working for their own. The problem is the director is taking the money from them and paying it to himself.




Money is taken from the employees? Is there a part of the paycheck where money is docked for the CEO's salary?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Redstorm]
    #5883418 - 07/21/06 01:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Or they can hire people who will shut up and do their work for the wages they agreed on while signing a contract of employment

Like they do in south east asia by hiring 12 year old girls who are easier to intimidate out of forming unions than men? I'm sure they'd love a workforce as submissive and compliant as that everywhere.

People don't go to work for the good of the director. Why should the director take $18,000 home in a bonus for himself instead of paying healthcare? How much would he make operating the business alone?

Money is taken from the employees? Is there a part of the paycheck where money is docked for the CEO's salary?

The cake is only so big. The director can either take a big slice or take a smaller slice and pay healthcare.

If he wants to see how much money he can make on his own then let him do so. Otherwise pay people what the job is worth.


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Invisiblespacemonster
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
    #5883571 - 07/21/06 02:52 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

If someone feels they aren't paid well enough, they should find another job or go back to school to become qualified for a better position.

Too many people put more effort into whining than they put into changing their own situation. These are the people who are castrating the economy, and I predict failure in the SF healthcare situation.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: spacemonster]
    #5883583 - 07/21/06 03:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

If someone feels they aren't paid well enough, they should find another job or go back to school to become qualified for a better position.


Going back to school isn't always that easy when you've got a family to feed.

These are the people who are castrating the economy

I thought people working for low rates is the main reason the economy is surviving. It certainly isn't down to directors sitting on their arse and awarding themselves 50% payrises year on year.

and I predict failure in the SF healthcare situation.

Failure was predicted when the UK introduced the minimum wage too. The economy kept growing just fine.


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
    #5883888 - 07/21/06 08:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

>Going back to school isn't always that easy when you've got a family to feed.

what in life is easy? if you aren't living the life you want sometimes you have to work hard and not wait for the government to take away from the hard workers to give to you

Have you ever been in a supervisory position? If you have then i would think that you would understand that to succeed there has to be someone above workers making decisions and keeping the employees on task. This increased responsibility to make sure things happen is compensated by a better wage and benefits.


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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #5884203 - 07/21/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you snoop.

I have a family, I work, and I go to school full-time. Yes it's overwhelming sometimes, but rather than bitch about life being hard, I keep doing what I know has to be done. If your life doesn't have difficulties now and then, you're probably not pulling your own weight.


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I eat Rubik's Cubes.


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Invisiblespacemonster
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
    #5884250 - 07/21/06 11:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
I thought people working for low rates is the main reason the economy is surviving. It certainly isn't down to directors sitting on their arse and awarding themselves 50% payrises year on year.




I'd like to see the source of that information. Nobody gets a 50% raise every year.

Not to mention there is usually more than one person in charge, and not just one "director". In upper management you tend to have a President, Vice President, assorted directors of different departments, Chairman, CEO, CFO, COO, CIO.... These people are the ones who make decisions that affect the company as a whole, and they are responsible for keeping the shareholders happy. As such, they are paid much much more than everyone else. On top of that, the top management doesn't sit around as far as I've ever witnessed. These are some of the busiest people I've ever met, sometimes working 70+ hour weeks. If a bottom level employee worked that hard, they wouldn't stay at the bottom very long.


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I eat Rubik's Cubes.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: spacemonster]
    #5884437 - 07/21/06 01:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

spacemonster said:
Quote:

Alex213 said:
I thought people working for low rates is the main reason the economy is surviving. It certainly isn't down to directors sitting on their arse and awarding themselves 50% payrises year on year.




I'd like to see the source of that information. Nobody gets a 50% raise every year.

Not to mention there is usually more than one person in charge, and not just one "director". In upper management you tend to have a President, Vice President, assorted directors of different departments, Chairman, CEO, CFO, COO, CIO.... These people are the ones who make decisions that affect the company as a whole, and they are responsible for keeping the shareholders happy. As such, they are paid much much more than everyone else. On top of that, the top management doesn't sit around as far as I've ever witnessed. These are some of the busiest people I've ever met, sometimes working 70+ hour weeks. If a bottom level employee worked that hard, they wouldn't stay at the bottom very long.




I've seen managers come and go. None of them ever make the slightest difference to the company and are never missed. The only guys you miss are the ones who actually have a skill and can do something useful.

And as for working long hours I don't know where you worked but I've never known a manager work longer hours than the workers. And certainly not if the workers are skilled. What's a manager going to do? Sit around and tell someone what to do when the worker has forgotten more than the manager will ever know?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
    #5884884 - 07/21/06 03:49 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

And as for working long hours I don't know where you worked but I've never known a manager work longer hours than the workers.




In which sectors of private industry have you worked? I personally have worked only in retail sales and in the bar/restaurant business, but I have friends and relatives in the hospitality sector (hotel management). In all of those areas every manager I have ever met works far more hours than do the employees. Sixty-plus hour work weeks are the norm.

I routinely worked six and a half day weeks (of up to fourteen hours each) as district sales manager for Canada's largest computer reseller. I don't think I ever worked less than sixty hours a week for the last three years I was there. My lunch "hour" was almost always thirty minutes spent grabbing a sandwich from the cafeteria downstairs and eating it at my desk while reading reports or making inventory inquiries on the computer.

I guess things are different in the UK than they are in North America.




Phred


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5885013 - 07/21/06 04:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Im surprised no one has pointed out that San Francisco is the #3 most wealthy city in the US. It is a bit dishonest to carry on as though this is a burden that other less affluent cities can bear.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Phred]
    #5886305 - 07/22/06 12:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

In which sectors of private industry have you worked? I personally have worked only in retail sales and in the bar/restaurant business, but I have friends and relatives in the hospitality sector (hotel management). In all of those areas every manager I have ever met works far more hours than do the employees. Sixty-plus hour work weeks are the norm.


Engineering/computing. Skilled jobs rather than service/selling jobs.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: spacemonster]
    #5886392 - 07/22/06 01:26 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Imho health care should be free to the public. The spending in health care should be on philosophical par with public funds that build roads for example.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Basilides]
    #5886410 - 07/22/06 01:35 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

nothings free thow, they will get there money one way or another, "raising taxes" or pulling it automaticly from your check.....one might say hey fuck that....but they will just pass a law and it will be taken behind closed doors then.....

im curious how people feel about older people in nursing homes...people with altimers and dementia who don't know who they are and usually hate life and want to die, or go on day in day out crying or reliving a person close dieing to them......

why do we FORCE them to live? natually if they were in the wild they wouldn't find food and would die.....they say its cruel to put a person down...but whats this bullshit forcing them to live like this is cruel...sick...and all about money and the healthcare monoply that is accoring....anyone notice hospitals are growing faster than micky d's????


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We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
We play on earth to pass the time :foreheadslap:

Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #5886422 - 07/22/06 01:39 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

natually if they were in the wild they wouldn't find food and would die

Wouldn't the majority of americans die if they were left in the wild without mickyd's?. They'd be too fat to run after anything  :laugh:


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #5886437 - 07/22/06 01:46 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

If we all lived in the "wild" the average life expectancy would be 30 years tops.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
    #5887256 - 07/22/06 11:25 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

So your only experience with management is with the engineering field, yet you believe you are able to extrapolate those experiences to management in all other fields?


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Registered: 01/20/05
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
    #5887271 - 07/22/06 11:31 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
In which sectors of private industry have you worked? I personally have worked only in retail sales and in the bar/restaurant business, but I have friends and relatives in the hospitality sector (hotel management). In all of those areas every manager I have ever met works far more hours than do the employees. Sixty-plus hour work weeks are the norm.


Engineering/computing. Skilled jobs rather than service/selling jobs.




But have you been a manager? It's one thing to complain about the managment b/c you don't see everything they are doing and you feel like you are doing all the valuable work at your job. It's totally different to be the one in office fixing and reading reports, making decisions, etc. Maybe the reason all the management you saw come and go was because they were working hard and getting promotions while you complained about them not doing enough so you stayed in the same position.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
    #5887338 - 07/22/06 12:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
natually if they were in the wild they wouldn't find food and would die

Wouldn't the majority of americans die if they were left in the wild without mickyd's?. They'd be too fat to run after anything  :laugh:




"most people in England (58%) are now either fat or obese."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1170787.stm

"According to the report, a phenomenal 61% of US adults are overweight or obese"
http://www.worldhealth.net/p/286,1047.html

Yep, them Limeys are one superfit example for the rest of us dumb fat colonials


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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5887447 - 07/22/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

People around here are misguided about the whole issue..

Many seem to think that business owners are making it rich beyond belief.  Truth is that most businesses fail in the first few years and many dont even make it off the ground at all.  Many more only make the owners an average salary of about 100K a year. 

I read allot of shit talk about CEOs and major salaries for executives but their isnt one business in America big and successful enough to have that sort of executive branching that doesnt already offer medical benefits to its thousands of employees.  That argument should be drooped.

Plus, businesses in California already have to pay an average $80 to $100 per employee per month for Workers Compensation Medical Benefits.  Now they want to add another $100 to $180 per employee :thumbdown:

Small businesses effected by this ARE going to get hurt.  Most of all Restaurants and small manufacturing businesses that have high overhead and low profits.  I wouldnt be a bit surprised to see 10% of small businesses to either close down or relocate in the first year alone.


--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #5889626 - 07/23/06 02:32 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

snoopaloop53 said:
Quote:

Alex213 said:
In which sectors of private industry have you worked? I personally have worked only in retail sales and in the bar/restaurant business, but I have friends and relatives in the hospitality sector (hotel management). In all of those areas every manager I have ever met works far more hours than do the employees. Sixty-plus hour work weeks are the norm.


Engineering/computing. Skilled jobs rather than service/selling jobs.




But have you been a manager? It's one thing to complain about the managment b/c you don't see everything they are doing and you feel like you are doing all the valuable work at your job. It's totally different to be the one in office fixing and reading reports, making decisions, etc. Maybe the reason all the management you saw come and go was because they were working hard and getting promotions while you complained about them not doing enough so you stayed in the same position.




Have you ever worked a skilled job? You either know the skill and can do something or you're a management leech sitting on your ass in the office drinking coffee. It's very rare you get a skilled worker "promoted" to an executive, executives are usually brought in. They're two very different breeds of people.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Posts: 1,839
Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: GabbaDj]
    #5889631 - 07/23/06 02:36 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

GabbaDj said:

Small businesses effected by this ARE going to get hurt. Most of all Restaurants and small manufacturing businesses that have high overhead and low profits. I wouldnt be a bit surprised to see 10% of small businesses to either close down or relocate in the first year alone.




Same argument they used in the UK to try and stop the minimum wage being introduced. Then it was introduced and none of doom laden predictions the managers made ever came true.


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