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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
#5877504 - 07/19/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
You can't just expect people to work like slaves for your benefit. You sometimes have to give a little back too.
It's called wages.
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Redstorm]
#5877526 - 07/19/06 12:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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That's "wage slavery", Redstorm. Get with the times.
Phred
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Phred]
#5877682 - 07/19/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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"As you are aware, San Francisco was one of the first epicenters of the AIDS epidemic and continues to be one of the hardest hit areas in the country. Today, there are an estimated 23,000 people living with HIV/AIDS in the San Francisco metropolitan area, one of the highest per capita rates of total AIDS cases in the country. San Francisco also has the tenth highest rate of new AIDS cases in the nation, and an increasing rate and prevalence of HIV infection. It is estimated that 1 in 40 San Franciscans is infected with HIV." http://www.house.gov/pelosi/press/releases/Aug04/CutsInSFAIDSPreventionFund080604.html
"The last year has seen tremendous progress in the treatment of HIV/AIDS. Protease inhibitors, such as Crixivan or ritonavir, are a new class of anti-viral drugs that attack HIV in a different way. When used in combination with other drugs, such as AZT or 3TC, these treatments slow down or stop the virus' reproduction.
Unfortunately, these new drugs are very expensive—costing from $12,000 to well over $20,000 per person per year."
http://www.sfaf.org/aboutsfaf/outreach/index.html?april97/sf_drugs.html~frontpage
Just three hundred new AIDS patients without insurance could cost $50+ million a year.
So in 2 years when they find that they're spending MUCH more than projected, what do they do?
Make businesses pay more......
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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spacemonster
i've evaporated

Registered: 04/07/04
Posts: 268
Loc: the comfy chair
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: lonestar2004]
#5878294 - 07/19/06 04:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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The liberals mean well.. they just don't have a very good grasp of economic principles.
>"At $180 a month? The manager probably blows more than that at the lapdancing club every week."
That's $180 a month per employee.. Consider a business with 100 employees. That $180 per employee quickly becomes $18,000 per month. It might not put them out of business, but it's certainly solid motivation to relocate.
-------------------- I eat Rubik's Cubes.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: spacemonster]
#5879997 - 07/20/06 12:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Like I said, the directors will comfortably drop $18,000 a month at lapdancing clubs.
And remember if they have to pay healthcare in every state they wouldn't move. And even if they do move, moving to New York when all your customers and workers are in San Francisco is going to cause problems of it's own.
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xDuckYouSuckerx
xBannedx


Registered: 05/25/06
Posts: 1,410
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: lonestar2004]
#5880121 - 07/20/06 01:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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San Francisco is lost. Pray for the earthquake and move far away from California. I'm glad that an appellate court, or was it the CA SC, struck down that idiotic handgun "ban".
-------------------- Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms
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spacemonster
i've evaporated

Registered: 04/07/04
Posts: 268
Loc: the comfy chair
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
#5881133 - 07/20/06 11:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: Like I said, the directors will comfortably drop $18,000 a month at lapdancing clubs.
That's just silly. If the directors are making enough to blow that much, they're likely investing it as smart wealthy people are known to do. It certainly is more than anyone needs to live on, but who are we to tell them what to do with their money. If I bust my ass to create enough wealth for my family to live easily, I'll be damned if I'm gonna let some minimum wage loser tell me they deserve it more than I do and make me provide healthcare for all the lameasses who won't work for their own.
Quote:
Alex213 said: And remember if they have to pay healthcare in every state they wouldn't move. And even if they do move, moving to New York when all your customers and workers are in San Francisco is going to cause problems of it's own.
A business can be moved in its entirety. Not a simple thing to do, but in cutting costs many manufacturers have moved out of the country while maintaining a base of operations within our borders. It's done to make investors happy, not bottom level employees.
-------------------- I eat Rubik's Cubes.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: spacemonster]
#5881245 - 07/20/06 12:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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It certainly is more than anyone needs to live on, but who are we to tell them what to do with their money
If they make that money by themselves we can tell them nothing. If they make it off the backs of their employees we can tell them anything we want. If they don't like it, don't hire anyone and see how much money they can make then.
make me provide healthcare for all the lameasses who won't work for their own.
They are working for their own. The problem is the director is taking the money from them and paying it to himself.
A business can be moved in its entirety
Let them move then. People can always find minimum wage jobs with no healthcare. Who gives a rats ass if they move?
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
#5881269 - 07/20/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
It certainly is more than anyone needs to live on, but who are we to tell them what to do with their money
If they make that money by themselves we can tell them nothing. If they make it off the backs of their employees we can tell them anything we want. If they don't like it, don't hire anyone and see how much money they can make then.
Or they can hire people who will shut up and do their work for the wages they agreed on while signing a contract of employment. I'm sure there are people out there who need the money.
Quote:
make me provide healthcare for all the lameasses who won't work for their own.
They are working for their own. The problem is the director is taking the money from them and paying it to himself.
Money is taken from the employees? Is there a part of the paycheck where money is docked for the CEO's salary?
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Redstorm]
#5883418 - 07/21/06 01:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Or they can hire people who will shut up and do their work for the wages they agreed on while signing a contract of employment
Like they do in south east asia by hiring 12 year old girls who are easier to intimidate out of forming unions than men? I'm sure they'd love a workforce as submissive and compliant as that everywhere.
People don't go to work for the good of the director. Why should the director take $18,000 home in a bonus for himself instead of paying healthcare? How much would he make operating the business alone?
Money is taken from the employees? Is there a part of the paycheck where money is docked for the CEO's salary?
The cake is only so big. The director can either take a big slice or take a smaller slice and pay healthcare.
If he wants to see how much money he can make on his own then let him do so. Otherwise pay people what the job is worth.
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spacemonster
i've evaporated

Registered: 04/07/04
Posts: 268
Loc: the comfy chair
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
#5883571 - 07/21/06 02:52 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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If someone feels they aren't paid well enough, they should find another job or go back to school to become qualified for a better position.
Too many people put more effort into whining than they put into changing their own situation. These are the people who are castrating the economy, and I predict failure in the SF healthcare situation.
-------------------- I eat Rubik's Cubes.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: spacemonster]
#5883583 - 07/21/06 03:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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If someone feels they aren't paid well enough, they should find another job or go back to school to become qualified for a better position.
Going back to school isn't always that easy when you've got a family to feed.
These are the people who are castrating the economy
I thought people working for low rates is the main reason the economy is surviving. It certainly isn't down to directors sitting on their arse and awarding themselves 50% payrises year on year.
and I predict failure in the SF healthcare situation.
Failure was predicted when the UK introduced the minimum wage too. The economy kept growing just fine.
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snoopaloop53
No BetterFriend. NoWorse Friend.

Registered: 01/20/05
Posts: 311
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
#5883888 - 07/21/06 08:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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>Going back to school isn't always that easy when you've got a family to feed.
what in life is easy? if you aren't living the life you want sometimes you have to work hard and not wait for the government to take away from the hard workers to give to you
Have you ever been in a supervisory position? If you have then i would think that you would understand that to succeed there has to be someone above workers making decisions and keeping the employees on task. This increased responsibility to make sure things happen is compensated by a better wage and benefits.
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spacemonster
i've evaporated

Registered: 04/07/04
Posts: 268
Loc: the comfy chair
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: snoopaloop53]
#5884203 - 07/21/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thank you snoop.
I have a family, I work, and I go to school full-time. Yes it's overwhelming sometimes, but rather than bitch about life being hard, I keep doing what I know has to be done. If your life doesn't have difficulties now and then, you're probably not pulling your own weight.
-------------------- I eat Rubik's Cubes.
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spacemonster
i've evaporated

Registered: 04/07/04
Posts: 268
Loc: the comfy chair
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
#5884250 - 07/21/06 11:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: I thought people working for low rates is the main reason the economy is surviving. It certainly isn't down to directors sitting on their arse and awarding themselves 50% payrises year on year.
I'd like to see the source of that information. Nobody gets a 50% raise every year.
Not to mention there is usually more than one person in charge, and not just one "director". In upper management you tend to have a President, Vice President, assorted directors of different departments, Chairman, CEO, CFO, COO, CIO.... These people are the ones who make decisions that affect the company as a whole, and they are responsible for keeping the shareholders happy. As such, they are paid much much more than everyone else. On top of that, the top management doesn't sit around as far as I've ever witnessed. These are some of the busiest people I've ever met, sometimes working 70+ hour weeks. If a bottom level employee worked that hard, they wouldn't stay at the bottom very long.
-------------------- I eat Rubik's Cubes.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: spacemonster]
#5884437 - 07/21/06 01:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
spacemonster said:
Quote:
Alex213 said: I thought people working for low rates is the main reason the economy is surviving. It certainly isn't down to directors sitting on their arse and awarding themselves 50% payrises year on year.
I'd like to see the source of that information. Nobody gets a 50% raise every year.
Not to mention there is usually more than one person in charge, and not just one "director". In upper management you tend to have a President, Vice President, assorted directors of different departments, Chairman, CEO, CFO, COO, CIO.... These people are the ones who make decisions that affect the company as a whole, and they are responsible for keeping the shareholders happy. As such, they are paid much much more than everyone else. On top of that, the top management doesn't sit around as far as I've ever witnessed. These are some of the busiest people I've ever met, sometimes working 70+ hour weeks. If a bottom level employee worked that hard, they wouldn't stay at the bottom very long.
I've seen managers come and go. None of them ever make the slightest difference to the company and are never missed. The only guys you miss are the ones who actually have a skill and can do something useful.
And as for working long hours I don't know where you worked but I've never known a manager work longer hours than the workers. And certainly not if the workers are skilled. What's a manager going to do? Sit around and tell someone what to do when the worker has forgotten more than the manager will ever know?
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Alex213]
#5884884 - 07/21/06 03:49 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
And as for working long hours I don't know where you worked but I've never known a manager work longer hours than the workers.
In which sectors of private industry have you worked? I personally have worked only in retail sales and in the bar/restaurant business, but I have friends and relatives in the hospitality sector (hotel management). In all of those areas every manager I have ever met works far more hours than do the employees. Sixty-plus hour work weeks are the norm.
I routinely worked six and a half day weeks (of up to fourteen hours each) as district sales manager for Canada's largest computer reseller. I don't think I ever worked less than sixty hours a week for the last three years I was there. My lunch "hour" was almost always thirty minutes spent grabbing a sandwich from the cafeteria downstairs and eating it at my desk while reading reports or making inventory inquiries on the computer.
I guess things are different in the UK than they are in North America.
Phred
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Catalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: lonestar2004]
#5885013 - 07/21/06 04:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Im surprised no one has pointed out that San Francisco is the #3 most wealthy city in the US. It is a bit dishonest to carry on as though this is a burden that other less affluent cities can bear.
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: Phred]
#5886305 - 07/22/06 12:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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In which sectors of private industry have you worked? I personally have worked only in retail sales and in the bar/restaurant business, but I have friends and relatives in the hospitality sector (hotel management). In all of those areas every manager I have ever met works far more hours than do the employees. Sixty-plus hour work weeks are the norm.
Engineering/computing. Skilled jobs rather than service/selling jobs.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: Universal health care plan approved in San Francisco [Re: spacemonster]
#5886392 - 07/22/06 01:26 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Imho health care should be free to the public. The spending in health care should be on philosophical par with public funds that build roads for example.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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