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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


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to make a couple of things clearer
#5870248 - 07/17/06 06:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Christianity is so much "quoted" here, but often misquoted because not many shroomers read the Bible, and I don't blaim them, but there are some things clearly stated in the bible which even catholic ministers put under the carpet or interpret in a very poethic way.
Here are some common issues:
1. A lot of people ask themselfs, why does god punish people for their sins when he created them sinfull.
Well, he didn't make them sinfull. Angels are the origin of human sin. Fallen angels are angels that have rebelled against the order of god either because their own vanity or because they didn't agree with god about the humans. Azazel, was one of these angels (his name is "strong of the god" or some variation of that). God asked him to bow before humans, his new creations, but he wouldn't, so he was banished. So Azazel/Lucifer tempted Adam and Eve into sin.
This is one origin of sin (temptation). The other one is genetic. As all humans cary the original corruption from birth, so can sin be introduced to humans through breeding. This is how human population was originally corrupted before the great flood. 200 of angels (including Azazel) visited earth, they were called Grigori, and fornicated with women, creating halfbreeds known as Nephilim. These Nephilim were the source of massive corruption with sin in human race. Azazel and his angels also taught people things like making armor and sword (thus the name Lucifer: light bringer, something like Jewish Prometheous) and they taught women how to make cosmetics and decorate eyes with paint (maskara)
The human race was so corrupted that there was bloodshed everywhere, people used their knew knowledge of swords and weapons and killed each other, and there was a lot of sexual "freedom"
That's why god decided to kill everyone but a few people who were still "uninfected".
Though some might interpret this as revenge, it is simple cleaning of earth from spoiled fruit, damaged merchandise that had to be disposed of.
Anyway, Lucifer continued to corrupt the human race even after the flood.
But this time god decided not to use the method of "terminal selection" at least not yet, but instead he sent Jesus, as someone who is supose to heal people, or repair them.
2. What is the purpuse of Jesus?
He was supose to take the weight of sin and pain on himself to ease the burden of the human race. Jesus was a mediator between god and human race. Now you can talk to Jesus, and he can put in a good work for you up there, so to speak.
Jesus said that when he dies, he will go and prepare a place for people in the kingdom of heaven. Till now only the holiest of people could enter that place (like Enoch, who was taken) He said that when he does that, he will return for those who believe in him to take them there.
Now, while there are a couple of places where on emight enterpret some words as such, there is no clear mention that a human soul goes there after death.
The prevailing idea in the Bible is that, when you die you die, as you are a being of flesh, but you can be recreated in the kingom of heaven one day. Same way, those would would be alive and taken to kingdom of heaven would be taken physically, not as spirits, but as people of flesh and blood.
3. What about afterlife?
When you die, you are gone, "waiting" for the judgement day. When that day comes, if you are adequate for that purpuse, you get recreated in the "realm" where God lives. If you are alive and fit the criteria, they will come for you, and you must leave everything behind, and leave at once. It is even mentioned that you are not to return to your house to get some things, but you must go barehanded and not look back.
After the resurrected dead and the raptured living are gathered in the place where Jesus comes from, then the rest of the people will start killing each other, until Lucifer finally reveals himself and proclaims himself as god of humans, then the forces of heaven will destroy all earth, and finally chain down Lucifer. The earth will be repopulated with resurrected dead and raptured ones, and with all animals and plants. Due to the small number of people, a human will not be such a common sight on earth. This is the part where kingdom of heaven is on earth. All flesh is now accoarding to its original specifications, clean of sin, and immortal. Humans will not age and never die.
This is the whole story.
If you think I've said something wrong, check the Bibile and correct me, but as you can see there is no place for heaven and hell in this scenario.
I really don't know where Catholics got their idea of hell, but it is said over and over by Jesus that the result of a sinfull life is natural death without resurrection and decay, NOT eternity in hell.
It's basically, if you live like an animal, you won't get punished, but you will also die like an animal. But to live for ever you have to earn it by living by gods standards of morality.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
Edited by OldWoodSpecter (07/17/06 06:22 PM)
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5870286 - 07/17/06 06:29 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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do you believe this or are you just clarifying?
i just cannot digest dogma right now. it makes sense, surely it does.
but so does Buddhism, and Taoism.
My main qualm I guess, is what gives one such authority, to be like us, to be ALIVE and CONSCIOUS yet to wield the ultimate tremendous power, never ending, never dying, never suffering, capable of creating, destroying, bring life and death and chaos...
what gives one such authority to BE GOD? How can it be that a God is sentient? I have troubles with that one.... now the notion of Christ is easier because to me it's more like, we all have God inside us, God is the highest potential, and Christ tapped that.... it's more in line with a one-mind kind of ideal to me.
I dunno.
and what gives you the authority to be created an angel... why weren't we created angels, why were we CREATED in order to suffer in samsara and be so confused by all the various dogmas, that a spiritual seeker would be hard pressed to really believe anything without God "himself" intervening and showing him the light.
how can we be created? Does that not denote predestination, as many humans will not ever volitionally choose the path of Jesus and ONLY Jesus, rather may be born into Islam and be fundamentally against the notions of Christianity their whole life, yet were created to be that way?
and this to me is why rebirth makse sense.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (07/17/06 06:30 PM)
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Droz
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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5870311 - 07/17/06 06:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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What about alien races? Like the greys, hybrids and other alien entities?
-------------------- Evolution of Time.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: leery11]
#5870346 - 07/17/06 06:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm just trying to make the technicalities of christianity more clear. A lot of "why god can't exist or is evil if he does" threads begin on false pretenses, that originate from cahtolic masses and not the Bible. So I think if christianity is to be bashed, it is only fair that its real face is attacked, not some twisted image of it.
And as for Jehowah. Well, he is NOT the spirit of everything, the allpresent energy of whatever. Jehowah is an entity separate from his creations, separate from humans and angels etc. It is a different kind of god from the philosophical concept of god. Also, these beings, are not bodyless spirits. Heaven is populated by beings with bodies. NOBODY ever entered heaven in the Bible while leaving his body on earth. Jesus, Enoch, Raptured ones, the Dead, all of them have risen in flesh to heaven. The only way you can enter kingdom of heaven is if someone from up there comes and takes you away, as you are. Same is true in hinduism, where semigods often picked up some people and took them for a ride to heavens.
Jehowah as the allpresent spirit of the universe makes zero sense. But as a powerfull entity separate from other things, he does make more sense in his actions
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: Droz]
#5870367 - 07/17/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Droz said: What about alien races? Like the greys, hybrids and other alien entities?
Well, I can only speculate about that, the above was just what the Bible says literally..
When it comes to aliens, I can only give you my speculations and beliefs.
I believe the "grey's" are the "legion" But that has little to do with this thread.
I was trying to say in short what the Bible says, not express my beliefs
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5870417 - 07/17/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: I'm just trying to make the technicalities of christianity more clear. A lot of "why god can't exist or is evil if he does" threads begin on false pretenses, that originate from cahtolic masses and not the Bible. So I think if christianity is to be bashed, it is only fair that its real face is attacked, not some twisted image of it.
And as for Jehowah. Well, he is NOT the spirit of everything, the allpresent energy of whatever. Jehowah is an entity separate from his creations, separate from humans and angels etc. It is a different kind of god from the philosophical concept of god. Also, these beings, are not bodyless spirits. Heaven is populated by beings with bodies. NOBODY ever entered heaven in the Bible while leaving his body on earth. Jesus, Enoch, Raptured ones, the Dead, all of them have risen in flesh to heaven. The only way you can enter kingdom of heaven is if someone from up there comes and takes you away, as you are. Same is true in hinduism, where semigods often picked up some people and took them for a ride to heavens.
Jehowah as the allpresent spirit of the universe makes zero sense. But as a powerfull entity separate from other things, he does make more sense in his actions
hmm.
what if Jehova was just some sort of light-being that wanted to fish out the "ripe" humans and bring them into a higher state of existence, rather than an all powerful God?
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: leery11]
#5870506 - 07/17/06 07:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Don't know what you mean by "light-being", I assume it has nothing to do with EM radiation and photons.
If you think about it, does it really take much to control all aspects of human life on earth? Human life is really simple compared to the vastness and complexity of the universe.
Also, I think that this idea of "all powerfull" is misunderstood. It simply states that God can do everything, but it doesn't say that it can do everything in a blink of an eye.
People often wonder, if god is so powerfull, how come he doesn't beat satan. Well, as the story goes, he does beat him in the end, it only takes time and certain methods.
If you look at the story as a whole, eventually everything ends up as God wishes, as everything is fixed, and lower beings such as angels and satan still play the game even though they know the outcome.
From that point of view, god is indeed allpowerfull, it's just that he isn't a magician, he takes time and uses different methods, just like you do when you make a table out of wood. A man CAN make a table out of wood, he can't do it in one second and he has to use tools, but that doesn't deminish his ability, he still can make a table
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5870619 - 07/17/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: Christianity is so much "quoted" here, but often misquoted because not many shroomers read the Bible, and I don't blaim them, but there are some things clearly stated in the bible which even catholic ministers put under the carpet or interpret in a very poethic way.
Here are some common issues:
1. A lot of people ask themselfs, why does god punish people for their sins when he created them sinfull.
Well, he didn't make them sinfull. Angels are the origin of human sin. Fallen angels are angels that have rebelled against the order of god either because their own vanity or because they didn't agree with god about the humans. Azazel, was one of these angels (his name is "strong of the god" or some variation of that). God asked him to bow before humans, his new creations, but he wouldn't, so he was banished. So Azazel/Lucifer tempted Adam and Eve into sin.
This is one origin of sin (temptation). The other one is genetic. As all humans cary the original corruption from birth, so can sin be introduced to humans through breeding. This is how human population was originally corrupted before the great flood. 200 of angels (including Azazel) visited earth, they were called Grigori, and fornicated with women, creating halfbreeds known as Nephilim. These Nephilim were the source of massive corruption with sin in human race. Azazel and his angels also taught people things like making armor and sword (thus the name Lucifer: light bringer, something like Jewish Prometheous) and they taught women how to make cosmetics and decorate eyes with paint (maskara)
The human race was so corrupted that there was bloodshed everywhere, people used their knew knowledge of swords and weapons and killed each other, and there was a lot of sexual "freedom"
That's why god decided to kill everyone but a few people who were still "uninfected".
Though some might interpret this as revenge, it is simple cleaning of earth from spoiled fruit, damaged merchandise that had to be disposed of.
Anyway, Lucifer continued to corrupt the human race even after the flood.
But this time god decided not to use the method of "terminal selection" at least not yet, but instead he sent Jesus, as someone who is supose to heal people, or repair them.
2. What is the purpuse of Jesus?
He was supose to take the weight of sin and pain on himself to ease the burden of the human race. Jesus was a mediator between god and human race. Now you can talk to Jesus, and he can put in a good work for you up there, so to speak.
Jesus said that when he dies, he will go and prepare a place for people in the kingdom of heaven. Till now only the holiest of people could enter that place (like Enoch, who was taken) He said that when he does that, he will return for those who believe in him to take them there.
Now, while there are a couple of places where on emight enterpret some words as such, there is no clear mention that a human soul goes there after death.
The prevailing idea in the Bible is that, when you die you die, as you are a being of flesh, but you can be recreated in the kingom of heaven one day. Same way, those would would be alive and taken to kingdom of heaven would be taken physically, not as spirits, but as people of flesh and blood.
3. What about afterlife?
When you die, you are gone, "waiting" for the judgement day. When that day comes, if you are adequate for that purpuse, you get recreated in the "realm" where God lives. If you are alive and fit the criteria, they will come for you, and you must leave everything behind, and leave at once. It is even mentioned that you are not to return to your house to get some things, but you must go barehanded and not look back.
After the resurrected dead and the raptured living are gathered in the place where Jesus comes from, then the rest of the people will start killing each other, until Lucifer finally reveals himself and proclaims himself as god of humans, then the forces of heaven will destroy all earth, and finally chain down Lucifer. The earth will be repopulated with resurrected dead and raptured ones, and with all animals and plants. Due to the small number of people, a human will not be such a common sight on earth. This is the part where kingdom of heaven is on earth. All flesh is now accoarding to its original specifications, clean of sin, and immortal. Humans will not age and never die.
This is the whole story.
If you think I've said something wrong, check the Bibile and correct me, but as you can see there is no place for heaven and hell in this scenario.
I really don't know where Catholics got their idea of hell, but it is said over and over by Jesus that the result of a sinfull life is natural death without resurrection and decay, NOT eternity in hell.
It's basically, if you live like an animal, you won't get punished, but you will also die like an animal. But to live for ever you have to earn it by living by gods standards of morality.
and the concensus on here is that Scientology is odd and "sci-fi"?
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5870637 - 07/17/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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that's a good point.
but how did things go afoul for God in the first place? Does he age? Was he a child and is he growing up and learning and making improvements?
Is he battling the demons out of his OWN head, and we're just dream characters? Doesn't that mean we're God?
lol anyway.... what I meant was, like maybe there are super refined beings with the ability to influence more animal based beings, and maybe the humans in their simplicity mistook alien or "being" intervention as God.... in an attempt to simplify and rationalize... or maybe these "alien" or being things said "I am God, worship me!"
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5870650 - 07/17/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I never managed to get a clear picture of what are the ideas behind scientology, so I can't answer that.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5870667 - 07/17/06 07:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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south park made me think scientology was a lot like matrixism....
buncha humans being tricked into accepting a consensus reality that is NOT based upon constant brainwashing of controlled opinions through media.
but my interpretation may be off and is of course slanted.
when i saw that episode i was like "scientologists are awesome" (not because of the alien stuff though)
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: leery11]
#5870671 - 07/17/06 07:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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sorry, by "here" I meant the entire shroomery.
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: leery11]
#5870704 - 07/17/06 07:38 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
leery11 said: that's a good point.
but how did things go afoul for God in the first place? Does he age? Was he a child and is he growing up and learning and making improvements?
Is he battling the demons out of his OWN head, and we're just dream characters? Doesn't that mean we're God?
lol anyway.... what I meant was, like maybe there are super refined beings with the ability to influence more animal based beings, and maybe the humans in their simplicity mistook alien or "being" intervention as God.... in an attempt to simplify and rationalize... or maybe these "alien" or being things said "I am God, worship me!"
Mistaken? In case we are talking about beings here, before the word God was used to describe these beings, did it have any other meaning? No, therefore if those are aliens, they ARE god.
If you think about it, even if you don't consider some alien beings or whatever, god, angels and Jesus ARE alien because they do not belong to earth ecosystem. Whatever they are, they are extraterrestrial (outside of earth)
saying: OMG, God is not god, he's an alien
is like saying: OMG, that policeman is not a policeman he is a man
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5870794 - 07/17/06 07:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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yeah man that's true.
but God denotes this power that just some alien dudes flying around, or being multi-dimensional lacks......
i stumbled across this one Bible story that sounded like it was talking about 4 dimensional beings though, something about how this chariot could move in all directions at once.
it was really quite surprising to read, that they had grasp on such things back then. it must be very archetypal. or .... maybe it was real?
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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LuNaTiX
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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5870853 - 07/17/06 08:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks for the post, it did help, 5 for you
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: leery11]
#5870889 - 07/17/06 08:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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A Bible is a thick book, and most people don't read it. There are stories in there that 99% of christians never even heard about, exept those who read it every night before bedtime, but those often fall asleep before they get to interesting parts..
yea, there are interesting things in there, like reading aincient version of x-files. You'd be suprized at what you can find. But that's just the begining, you can get a ton more amazing details in original Jewish books from which the old testament was assambled.
Well if you put it that way, imagine beings that are aincient, that were here when the dinosautrs lived, that made dinosaurs, not just your Spielberg aliens from another planet that live 500 years. I mean eternal beings. Imagine the power and wisedom they would gain through such existence? Wouldn't they be worthy of being called God?
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Clean
the lense


Registered: 05/11/03
Posts: 2,374
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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5871044 - 07/17/06 08:49 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
magine the power and wisedom they would gain through such existence? Wouldn't they be worthy of being called God?
IMO, Not if it is implied that anyone else is NOT an aspect of God - or Prime Source.
Any being, no matter how old and advanced, who claims to be the sole embodiment of Prime Source is committing a very grave act.
Ezekiel described them to us. Enoch had some things to say about them. Ancient people across the globe have written about them. Indeed they did come and say "We are Gods, worship us!"
There is no "God" but the Prime Source of creation, which everything is an aspect of. None can tower over nature.
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Panoramix
Getafix


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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5871057 - 07/17/06 08:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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"In case we are talking about beings here, before the word God was used to describe these beings, did it have any other meaning? No, therefore if those are aliens, they ARE god."
Um, you're claiming YaWeH was the first God-concept to be thought up? Ha! He should get in line. There's many a deity older than he, and the term 'god' would've had plenty of meaning well before the writing of the source documents for Old Testament, when this hypothetical E.T.-cum-YWH was scampering around flooding things.
-------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: Panoramix]
#5871340 - 07/17/06 10:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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lets look at this word "god"... where was who ever it was supposed to come from? and if it came from that, how is it that it aquired idenity, purpose or substance?
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Edited by blackdragon999 (07/17/06 10:16 PM)
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Panoramix
Getafix


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Re: to make a couple of things clearer [Re: blackdragon999]
#5871563 - 07/17/06 11:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh man, 'Who Created the Creator' stuff! I quite liked that line of questioning, let me see if I can't dig up a relatively recent thread on that...
*swandives into the archives*
Would you believe there's no diving emoticon? This is the closest I could come up with...
-------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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