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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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why I don't believe in god
#5868289 - 07/17/06 05:14 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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what is life?... look around you, there are different colors, things are constantly moving around you there is a notable balance and consistency to everything. but how do you know that? how do you know you are not making it up? I am not a christian. I did not post this for the purpose of being confusing or offensive. I simply "observe" all things. this is my theory:
*no person can consciously make any choice to do anything *there is no definition of "real" or "fake" is is all perception *people act and think on instinct, and have no original thoughts *spiritual realms do not exist, if so the knowlege of such would make the two planes colide. therfore providing in the mind a gateway, which is physical. *everyone is looking for truth, however it is not possible of being 100% sure of anything.
I have studied much, and yet I have no answers to any question, do you believe you can have complete faith? how is it possible? I have found many lies and deceptions along my way. I have come to find that "truth" is the target motivated by faith. without truth you cannot believe. and once you have aquired total faith you have no more will to find truth, for you have aquired it(in your mind).
I miss being a kid, don't you? everything was very simple and where it was supposed to be. no need to find the answers to questions that didn't matter. but as a kid you develop habbits and memories that you use as tools as an adult. for instance "this bowl is clean" is something you were taught as a kid..."this fork is dirty".... a mental image of the differece between "dirty" and "clean" is developed. can you choose wherther it is clean or dirty...no... and yes. that is how we make choices and come up with conclusions. for instance I can conclude that If you have read this far you are either interested, bored,amused or you're still trying to firgure out why the hell I posted this. provided with my asumption(something that is devolped by repetition and function). When you go into the fridge to grab an apple, do you think you could choose between that and the banana? you would logicaly say "yes" being your perception of your right to choose. ex. you have faith in god right? how do you know that? because you believe it! so if you believed that you could choose the apple over the banana...you could right?! wrong. your brain makes the choice for you. chemicaly your brain remembers the taste of a banana and things that go along with it(your nutritional values, your apitite(motivated by things around you and interfaces) your level of hunger...ect...) so therfore your brain is a machine and that machine tells you that you are going to choose the banana. but you say, thats ridiculus I can choose the apple if I feel like it. okay... the fact that I told you that you were going to choose the banana chalenges you to prove me wrong, instinctivly you will now choose the apple. therefore making the choice for you.
Spirits and angels and demons are very much alike you mind telling you what to see. it happens in your dreams all the time, you see things that arn't really there, even feelings that arn't there. somewhat relative to real live. if you really could contact a spirit (in a spiritual realm) then that would mean that a physical aspect of your being would have to be aware that you were in that realm. ex. "I got a word from god" okay... lets think about this, "god" is spirit, you are not, but you believe you have a spiritual property to your soul which you use to comunicate. how do you transpose into that "spiritual property" of your being? if you are aware of doing it, you must be thinking it, therefore making it mental. even if it is a feeling of great depth, or joy, or an inner peace. it can all be created in a lab or manifested in your mind. I have no reservation to believe that I am alive right now, I have no reason not to at the moment, it still doen't mean I'm not really here. I believe that in order for you to have complete faith you must first put aside logic and reason, which leaves you ignorant. to be completly sure of anything requires that you put aside questions in your mind about its state of reality, the human brain is not capable of that. since we have determined that the mind is very unstable we also determine that it isn't possible to be certain of anything even me being aware of being alive right now could be an illusion, even god. if you can please show me how to have faith, I have found none in my life. am I certain that all the things I have just said are true? of course not, you must make the judgement for yourself, as will I. I hope I am not confusing I'm just tring to find my way like everyone else.
Edited by blackdragon999 (07/17/06 11:40 PM)
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OldWoodSpecter
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Before we continue this discussion. Please explain what is "spiritual" and what is "spirit"?
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: Before we continue this discussion. Please explain what is "spiritual" and what is "spirit"?
I believe "spirit" and "spiritual" are words that are used but people(many religions)to describe the interface between the seen and unseen realms. a "spirit" could be described as a ghost or a vision (which many clinicaly insane people see on very regular occasions) Which you can also mentaly create.These terms I believe to be myths. "spiritual" An imaginary plane which many believe colides with the physical place in which we find ourselves now. I personaly do not believe that such a plane exists.
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OldWoodSpecter
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In your previous post, you described god as a spirit. Your definition of the spirit would suggest then that god is something imaginary. If god is an imaginary concept, how come you don't believe in it? I mean it's very obvious that people DO imagine it, therefore as imaginary concept it does exist.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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it is possible that you already have unpacked all the answers from your boxes, and then (in haste, or possibly embarrassement) you put them back in other boxes - it's all a mess.
now you complain that you have to build new shelves to help you organize the mess.
or you could have a lawn sale, and then just let new stuff come up as it is just bound to, and deal fairly with that; make no unecessary additions, and see things for what they are like veritas
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
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you ask why I don't believe in something imaginary?... I do in an "imaginary concept" as you put it anything can exist. ex. an imaginary friend that is real to me may be something that you will never see. I my mind it is as real as anything else like this desk or this keyboard, which are things that I perceive to be real simply because for some reason I have determined these things to be real. I do not imagine god...I don't wish him to be real, therefore he doe's not exist to me. many people have told me they believe in god because... "I feel safe believing in a god because he promises eternal life...ect...ect" that is a motive to WANT to believe. or it is said that people believe simply because it is a reservation. ex. even if they found in the end that there really was no god then they really have lost nothing, so they continue to believe based on fear of going to hell(being the extreme). In reply to your comment, yes I believe in the concept of god existing as a conceptional element, but only in a mental state of mind.
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: it is possible that you already have unpacked all the answers from your boxes, and then (in haste, or possibly embarrassement) you put them back in other boxes - it's all a mess.
now you complain that you have to build new shelves to help you organize the mess.
or you could have a lawn sale, and then just let new stuff come up as it is just bound to, and deal fairly with that; make no unecessary additions, and see things for what they are like veritas
what are you refering to?
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus


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These two statements are analogous:
"I don't believe in god"
"I do not define the word god in a useful manner"
The complete intangibility of god means it will never be seen or proven. The absolute/infinite attributes possessed by god mean god will never be encompassed by our minds (fully understood). God is a perspective, an idea, not a physical thing.
By 'not believing' in god you are simply deciding god is not an idea you can hold in your mind for positive purposes.
My definition of god is 'everything'. This is an 'entity' I can believe in, but which I seldom have reason to do anything other than respect or admire.
I consider the traditional religious oversimplification of god (He's a man who wants you to do stuff apparently...) to be blasphemous.
I would have made the same statement as you (about 'not believing in god') until recently. I held this stance for similar reasons to you, believing submission to faith inevitably leads to ignorance. However, recently, I simply found a more appropriate definition of god for myself... one which left things like my 'logic' and 'reason' intact, yet allowed me to communicate in a more positive way with those who love god.
-------------------- Know your self. Know your substance. Know your source. The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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what is mind?
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MarkostheGnostic
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I used to have some mind, then I ran out of it. I've been out of my mind for so long that I don't remember what it is - but I KNOW that I had some. All I have here and now is some awareness, but that's OK, I don't mind. Oh...nevermind.
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Shampioenier
Storm in aTeaCup


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MAYBE GOD DOESNT BELIEVE IN U. ?
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Shampioenier
Storm in aTeaCup


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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: Shampioenier]
#5868594 - 07/17/06 08:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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faith is the target motivated by truth. Isn't it good if, say someone is literally dying of hunger or thirst, to feed them or quench their thirst. And no, the God that you can know, does not exist, because God really is only God by Being unknowable. Thats what being God is all about, really. And thats the only way ta know the fellar.
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OldWoodSpecter
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Quote:
blackdragon999 said: you ask why I don't believe in something imaginary?... I do in an "imaginary concept" as you put it anything can exist. ex. an imaginary friend that is real to me may be something that you will never see. I my mind it is as real as anything else like this desk or this keyboard, which are things that I perceive to be real simply because for some reason I have determined these things to be real. I do not imagine god...I don't wish him to be real, therefore he doe's not exist to me. many people have told me they believe in god because... "I feel safe believing in a god because he promises eternal life...ect...ect" that is a motive to WANT to believe. or it is said that people believe simply because it is a reservation. ex. even if they found in the end that there really was no god then they really have lost nothing, so they continue to believe based on fear of going to hell(being the extreme). In reply to your comment, yes I believe in the concept of god existing as a conceptional element, but only in a mental state of mind.
I'm just trying to make sense of your post. You started by saying you don't believe in god (probably you ment god as a real being), and then proclaimed god spiritual, which means imaginary. From that point of view, christians and other religions don't believe god to be spiritual. But they do. You are confusing me with your definitions of words
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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OldWoodSpecter
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: it is possible that you already have unpacked all the answers from your boxes, and then (in haste, or possibly embarrassement) you put them back in other boxes - it's all a mess.
now you complain that you have to build new shelves to help you organize the mess.
or you could have a lawn sale, and then just let new stuff come up as it is just bound to, and deal fairly with that; make no unecessary additions, and see things for what they are like veritas
who, me?
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: Shampioenier]
#5868739 - 07/17/06 09:51 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shampioenier said: faith is the target motivated by truth. Isn't it good if, say someone is literally dying of hunger or thirst, to feed them or quench their thirst. And no, the God that you can know, does not exist, because God really is only God by Being unknowable. Thats what being God is all about, really. And thats the only way ta know the fellar.
You make a good point. If god does exist, he is a thing, a very specific thing, and if we knew him more, we could describe him with more words than just "god" or what we imagine about him.
But it is the "job" of religious zealots to proclaim god as something that can not be known, and therefore are isolating it from all atempts to understand it and are fueling the skepticism.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
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If god does exist, he is a thing, a very specific thing
Why?
religious zealots to proclaim god as something that can not be known
I'd add that they proclaim him as unknowable, yet they proclaim his will to be knowable and enforcable.
If you want to believe in something, I'd suggest believing in reality. Drop conceptions and intellectualizations on this 'God' BS, and then you just may discover that 'God' is in fact reality, everything, including us.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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capliberty
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: dblaney]
#5869064 - 07/17/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
I have studied much, and yet I have no answers to any question, do you believe you can have complete faith? how is it possible? I have found many lies and deceptions along my way. I have come to find that "truth" is the target motivated by faith. without truth you cannot believe. and once you have acquired total faith you have no more will to find truth, for you have acquired it(in your mind). I miss being a kid, don't you? everything was very simple and where it was supposed to be. no need to find the answers to questions that didn't matter. but as a kid you develop habits and memories that you use as tools as an adult. for instance "this bowl is clean" is something you were taught as a kid..."this fork is dirty".... a mental image of the difference between "dirty" and "clean" is developed. can you choose whether it is clean or dirty...no... and yes. that is how we make choices and come up with conclusions. for instance I can conclude that If you have read this far you are either interested, bored,amused or you're still trying to figure out why the hell I posted this. provided with my assumption(something that is developed by repetition and function). When you go into the fridge to grab an apple, do you think you could choose between that and the banana? you would logically say "yes" being your perception of your right to choose. ex. you have faith in god right? how do you know that? because you believe it! so if you believed that you could choose the apple over the banana...you could right?! wrong. your brain makes the choice for you. chemically your brain remembers the taste of a banana and things that go along with it(your nutritional values, your appetite(motivated by things around you and interfaces) your level of hunger...ect...) so therefore your brain is a machine and that machine tells you that you are going to choose the banana. but you say, thats ridiculous I can choose the apple if I feel like it. okay... the fact that I told you that you were going to choose the banana challenges you to prove me wrong, instinctively you will now choose the apple. therefore making the choice for you. spirits and angels and demons are very much alike you mind telling you what to see. it happens in your dreams all the time, you see things that aren't really there, even feelings that aren't there. somewhat relative to real live. if you really could contact a spirit (in a spiritual realm) then that would mean that a physical aspect of your being would have to be aware that you were in that realm. ex. "I got a word from god" okay... lets think about this, "god" is spirit, you are not, but you believe you have a spiritual property to your soul which you use to communicate. how do you transpose into that "spiritual property" of your being? if you are aware of doing it, you must be thinking it, therefore making it mental. even if it is a feeling of great depth, or joy, or an inner peace. it can all be created in a lab or manifested in your mind. I have no reservation to believe that I am alive right now, I have no reason not to at the moment, it still don't mean I'm not really here. I believe that in order for you to have complete faith you must first put aside logic and reason, which leaves you ignorant. to be completely sure of anything requires that you put aside questions in your mind about its state of reality, the human brain is not capable of that. since we have determined that the mind is very unstable we also determine that it isn't possible to be certain of anything even me being aware of being alive right now could be an illusion, even god. if you can please show me how to have faith, I have found none in my life. am I certain that all the things I have just said are true? of course not, you must make the judgment for yourself, as will I. I hope I am not confusing I'm just trying to find my way like everyone else. thank you ladies and gentleman for listening.
mathematics bro, right now your hovering around algebra, which manipulates a little beyond the surface but ur still trying to apply non dimensional concepts of this existence to a multi dimenisional existence, as our existence pertains really only to 3 dimensional universe but really existence itself is defined by infinite dimensions by logic and math,
I'm saying logic isn't going to uncover all the unknowns, but it'll uncover a few misconceptions
their can be an infinite amount of planes and subspaces that can co exist, because dimensionally they can, meaning anything in 4th won't collide in the 3rd, actually they can be intermeshed, or coexist in the same space, why because the lower dimensions aren't divided by the higher, but define the higher, and the higher are dependent upon the lower, thats why "spirits" if you want to call them that, can hover in lower dimensions because part of nature exists in these lower dimensions but their existence isn't limited to these lower dimensions, but actually in higher, making them exist on a higher physical plane, because their existence isn't defined by 3 dimensions, which defines height, width, depth from a single arbitrary point called the universe, this defines an object because its adds the 2 dimensional plane with depth, 4 defines time, which defines action, which time wouldn't exist if there weren't action to differentiate a measured change, and theirs a 5th dimension, 6th........on to infinity, very large, actually infinity has no size, it becomes a different concept in itself, but can always be used to measure any particular numerical reference within its universe, because its the all encompusing, the complete, most people can't perceive beyond the 4th, and some can perceive 5, 5th suppose to define space or something, that space isn't really space, there's an inner space within space, so this aleast clear up one misconception about knowing realms and planes colliding, even if they do collide its not a real collision, more like an inner mesh, do you see any ghosts if assuming one by definition would not colliding into walls, besides I've seen some vivid hullucinations, more ghostly, not like shroom hullucinations, but more transparent, flying around on their own accord,
Edited by capliberty (07/17/06 12:38 PM)
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: dblaney]
#5869103 - 07/17/06 12:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said: If god does exist, he is a thing, a very specific thing
Why?
religious zealots to proclaim god as something that can not be known
I'd add that they proclaim him as unknowable, yet they proclaim his will to be knowable and enforcable.
If you want to believe in something, I'd suggest believing in reality. Drop conceptions and intellectualizations on this 'God' BS, and then you just may discover that 'God' is in fact reality, everything, including us.
Yea, that's the smart answer to the god question. Good for sounding enlightened. Plus it's something compatible with all beliefs. I used to say that too. It has a ring to it.
In reality, you don't know what god is anymore than anyone of us. Maybe he is a man selling icecream.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: dblaney]
#5869786 - 07/17/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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If God is identical to reality... why would we ever use the word "God"?
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Newbie
User of semicolons.


Registered: 07/18/04
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I'm really interested in what you have to say, however I refuse to read a block paragraph.
Edited by Newbie (07/17/06 04:21 PM)
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
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Precisely
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: what is mind?
indeed, what is mind? I have a reason to believe that it exists. and that reason I believe comes from my mind, therfore we are never certain what "reason" or "belief" is. If "mind" is the physical brain, than we are all machines incappable of controling ourselves. just a thought.
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: dblaney]
#5870388 - 07/17/06 06:49 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said: If god does exist, he is a thing, a very specific thing
Why?
religious zealots to proclaim god as something that can not be known
I'd add that they proclaim him as unknowable, yet they proclaim his will to be knowable and enforcable.
If you want to believe in something, I'd suggest believing in reality. Drop conceptions and intellectualizations on this 'God' BS, and then you just may discover that 'God' is in fact reality, everything, including us.
what is reality?
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OldWoodSpecter
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Reality is spacial and temporal (and all other dimensions if they exist) distribution of forces and matter (and all other forms of existence) in the universe.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: Reality is spacial and temporal (and all other dimensions if they exist) distribution of forces and matter (and all other forms of existence) in the universe.
what is the inversion of that statement? Can you be certain that people are real...what about yourself?
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OldWoodSpecter
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I can't be certain of anything, but that just proves how real I am, if I did know everything, I'd suspect that all reality is a product of my imagination, this way, my imperfections and inability to control things speaks in favour that I am a part of reality, and not that reality is a part of me.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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many religions focus on metal control. ex. believing that they control the direction of a candle flame, therefore attaining reality in the concept that they are in control. Is that they are creating an alteration of reality and perceived in the sence that the optics of the candle are present? Very much agreed I don't believe anyone can be certain of anything. Notice the fact that I just used the word "believe" in that last sentance. Can you relatively or medially believe something? I believe that you can.
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: Newbie]
#5871212 - 07/17/06 09:39 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
NewbieShroomie said: I'm really interested in what you have to say, however I refuse to read a block paragraph.
are you refering to the instance in which I try to logicaly define the target of perception? I define the condidtion of matter and the belief of matter and its properties.
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Panoramix
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"I miss being a kid, don't you? everything was very simple and where it was supposed to be. no need to find the answers to questions that didn't matter." --BlackDragon999
As a kid I had an insatiable lust for useless questions. Not necessarily the answers, mind you, but the questions. In my youth, nothing was simple, everything was unique and magical and inexplicable, but such fun to try to explain, to flail at truths that didn't matter with a feeble, inexperienced mind. Then people started teaching me 'truths', talk about ruining a good thing! I guess I was an odd one...
"You make a good point. If god does exist, he is a thing, a very specific thing, and if we knew him more, we could describe him with more words than just "god" or what we imagine about him.
But it is the "job" of religious zealots to proclaim god as something that can not be known, and therefore are isolating it from all atempts to understand it and are fueling the skepticism." --OWS
Um, since when do zealots seek to encourage skepticism? Zealots generally try to encourage others to hold their particular set of views, and have a level of faith completely unshakable by skepticism. I'm fairly sure that's an integral part of being a zealot, really. Unless you're using some nifty new definition of zealot that means 'bloke who encourages the critiquing of religious doctrine' rather than the current definition, which is pretty much the opposite of that.
"In reality, you don't know what god is anymore than anyone of us. Maybe he is a man selling icecream." --OWS
"What if God was one of us? Just a stranger on the bus?
I bet you'd forgotten that song existed, eh? Not too happy to be reminded of it, are ya? I really don't blame you, I've just felt compelled to burst into song all day long. Terribly sorry, I couldn't resist.
NewbieShroomie said: "I'm really interested in what you have to say, however I refuse to read a block paragraph."
Blackdragon999 replied: "are you refering to the instance in which I try to logicaly define the target of perception? I define the condidtion of matter and the belief of matter and its properties."
I think he's referring to the way your initial post is almost all in one big lump, rather than being broken into seperate paragraphs for seperate points. There's just no pleasing some folks, I thought it was a very nice post, and welcome to the Shroomery.
Though I do disagree with it. In what ways do I disagree with your initial post? Hold on, let me post this, then I'll post another bit explaining where I agree with you and where our views differ, not that I expect you to care or anything, I'm just, y'know, talking atcha. Make of it what you will...
-------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: Panoramix]
#5871550 - 07/17/06 11:08 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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thank you... I am not a "gramatical enthusiast", just a thinker. I write things as they come out of my head, I never think to erase or correct anything.
"As a kid I had an insatiable lust for useless questions. Not necessarily the answers, mind you, but the questions. In my youth, nothing was simple, everything was unique and magical and inexplicable, but such fun to try to explain, to flail at truths that didn't matter with a feeble, inexperienced mind. Then people started teaching me 'truths', talk about ruining a good thing! I guess I was an odd one..." Panoramix
so was I, very odd(At least thats what I thought). I agree with that point. you're right it was exciting to discover things simply for what they where instead of analytic assumptions.
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Edited by blackdragon999 (07/17/06 11:08 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
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you are describing mind maybe a machine maybe with free will
keep on keeping on. and good work this thread could equally be called why I do believe in god? or what am I interested in anyway?
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: you are describing mind maybe a machine maybe with free will
keep on keeping on. and good work this thread could equally be called why I do believe in god? or what am I interested in anyway?
yes very much agreed... thank you, the new title for this post is... "Why god dosn't believe in me"
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Panoramix
Getafix


Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 634
Loc: Everywhere else
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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"no person can consciously make any choice to do anything"
I disagree with you on this point out of simple respect for my own irrationality and my hope that my actions can exist relatively independently of my circumstances. If I can't conciously choose, then I'd expect the choices I make to make more sense. It's not a conclusive argument, but mechanism can be as hard to argue against as faith, I've found. Really, I'd just rather your first point weren't true, but I've got no demonstrable evidence to the contrary.
"there is no definition of 'real' or 'fake' is is all perception"
I agree with that, real and false are values we attribute to things, values with only subjective meanings. And since subjective meanings can't be shared with others (at least, not accurately) they lose all value should you decide they do. But I guess that goes back to your first point, no one's deciding anything according to you, eh?
"people act and think on instinct, and have no original thoughts" I disagree with on the same grounds as your first point. I can't prove the originality of my own thoughts to you or anyone else, but I'm satisified they are original, as they are original to my own subjective experience of reality.
"spiritual realms do not exist, if so the knowlege of such would make the two planes colide. therfore providing in the mind a gateway, which is physical."
Capliberty did a good job of illustrating how a spiritual plane could co-exist harmoniously with a physical plane, that the two to enmesh rather than collide on page 1. I liked his bit about this point.
"everyone is looking for truth, however it is not possible of being 100% sure of anything."
I pretty much agree with you there. I'd like to think I bear the unprovability of things in mind and hence do not lust after 'truths' I know to be false, subjective or at the very least incommunicable. But hey, I look both ways before I cross the street when jaywalking. That suggests I feel there is some objective truth about cars and their relative placements and momentums that I can discern by looking for it.
"okay... lets think about this, "god" is spirit, you are not, but you believe you have a spiritual property to your soul which you use to comunicate. how do you transpose into that "spiritual property" of your being? if you are aware of doing it, you must be thinking it, therefore making it mental. even if it is a feeling of great depth, or joy, or an inner peace. it can all be created in a lab"
I would disagree with that just based on my personal experiences, but maybe I just haven't spent enough time in labs...
Anyhow, good post.
-------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: Panoramix]
#5872130 - 07/18/06 02:06 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Panoramix said: "no person can consciously make any choice to do anything"
I disagree with you on this point out of simple respect for my own irrationality and my hope that my actions can exist relatively independently of my circumstances. If I can't conciously choose, then I'd expect the choices I make to make more sense. It's not a conclusive argument, but mechanism can be as hard to argue against as faith, I've found. Really, I'd just rather your first point weren't true, but I've got no demonstrable evidence to the contrary.
"there is no definition of 'real' or 'fake' is is all perception"
I agree with that, real and false are values we attribute to things, values with only subjective meanings. And since subjective meanings can't be shared with others (at least, not accurately) they lose all value should you decide they do. But I guess that goes back to your first point, no one's deciding anything according to you, eh?
"people act and think on instinct, and have no original thoughts" I disagree with on the same grounds as your first point. I can't prove the originality of my own thoughts to you or anyone else, but I'm satisified they are original, as they are original to my own subjective experience of reality.
"spiritual realms do not exist, if so the knowlege of such would make the two planes colide. therfore providing in the mind a gateway, which is physical."
Capliberty did a good job of illustrating how a spiritual plane could co-exist harmoniously with a physical plane, that the two to enmesh rather than collide on page 1. I liked his bit about this point.
"everyone is looking for truth, however it is not possible of being 100% sure of anything."
I pretty much agree with you there. I'd like to think I bear the unprovability of things in mind and hence do not lust after 'truths' I know to be false, subjective or at the very least incommunicable. But hey, I look both ways before I cross the street when jaywalking. That suggests I feel there is some objective truth about cars and their relative placements and momentums that I can discern by looking for it.
"okay... lets think about this, "god" is spirit, you are not, but you believe you have a spiritual property to your soul which you use to comunicate. how do you transpose into that "spiritual property" of your being? if you are aware of doing it, you must be thinking it, therefore making it mental. even if it is a feeling of great depth, or joy, or an inner peace. it can all be created in a lab"
I would disagree with that just based on my personal experiences, but maybe I just haven't spent enough time in labs...
Anyhow, good post.
Quote:
no person can consciously make any choice to do anything"
I disagree with you on this point out of simple respect for my own irrationality and my hope that my actions can exist relatively independently of my circumstances. If I can't conciously choose, then I'd expect the choices I make to make more sense. It's not a conclusive argument, but mechanism can be as hard to argue against as faith, I've found. Really, I'd just rather your first point weren't true, but I've got no demonstrable evidence to the contrary.
I believe your actions do exist independently of your circumstances(and the interface in which you find you mental state, to interact with those circumstances). What are people? Programs? There is a reason you get angry sometimes... there is a reason some people are always sad. There is a reason why it never snows anymore. Those are all instances where things don't have to make sence... they are what they are. Your external social mentality incorporates congruent beliefs to oppositional and corresponding beliefs. I could probably make you angry if I tried... why is that? Because it would be my target, if you were aware of that you would probably do something to prevent yourself from getting angry. Or would you?
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"there is no definition of 'real' or 'fake' is is all perception"
I agree with that, real and false are values we attribute to things, values with only subjective meanings. And since subjective meanings can't be shared with others (at least, not accurately) they lose all value should you decide they do. But I guess that goes back to your first point, no one's deciding anything according to you, eh?
haha, just one question...are you a hypertext programmer?... the words "value" and "attribute" seem familiar. You can ignore that last statement if you want. You are right however, thank you.
Quote:
"people act and think on instinct, and have no original thoughts" I disagree with on the same grounds as your first point. I can't prove the originality of my own thoughts to you or anyone else, but I'm satisified they are original, as they are original to my own subjective experience of reality.
well put... I wish I had the answer to this question but thats why I go back to my first statement."no person can consciously make any choice to do anything" the question is where did "thoughts" come from?
Quote:
"spiritual realms do not exist, if so the knowlege of such would make the two planes colide. therfore providing in the mind a gateway, which is physical."
Capliberty did a good job of illustrating how a spiritual plane could co-exist harmoniously with a physical plane, that the two to enmesh rather than collide on page 1. I liked his bit about this point.
Thank you.
Quote:
"everyone is looking for truth, however it is not possible of being 100% sure of anything."
I pretty much agree with you there. I'd like to think I bear the unprovability of things in mind and hence do not lust after 'truths' I know to be false, subjective or at the very least incommunicable. But hey, I look both ways before I cross the street when jaywalking. That suggests I feel there is some objective truth about cars and their relative placements and momentums that I can discern by looking for it.
What if that reality was inverted? What if you were certain that you WOULD get hit when you walked across the street(or ran). ex. you are commiting suiside. You could therefore determine what was "truth" by avoiding it all together. Therefore proving it "true" by ending your life. But doe's that make it true? The car could still stop before it hits you.
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Shampioenier
Storm in aTeaCup


Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 260
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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God is Both Known and Unknown. God is BEYOND BINARY LOGIC OF MERE COMPUTERS. Furthermore. To say that we have no choice to do anything is the philosophy of Determinism. And although I believe in Destiny, even Predestiny, I believe there is Both Freedom and Predestiny. How can I say that. Because, perhaps we cannot choose to do something, but we certainly can choose to do nothing. Like Zen Master Xu Yun, Empty Cloud, who just lay on the groundf as the Chinese communists beat him and kicked him for 6 hours to tell them where the Treasure of the Zen Temple Is. Of course, they did not realise that master Xu Yun was the Treasure of the Zen Temple. He did not react to their attacks. He chose to do nothing. Which really sometimes is the greatest act imaginable. In other instances its instigated by mere vegetabitality...
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Shampioenier
Storm in aTeaCup


Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 260
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: WHO GOD IS, AND WHAT ZEN IS [Re: Shampioenier]
#5883700 - 07/21/06 06:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yes the car could stop, it if was going slow enough and you were far enough away. the trick now depends on if you are really suicidal but too dumb to choose a very fast car, or not really suicidal, and choosing a slow one.. God is waiting for someone to tell him a good Joke, you know. God exists. Hmmm How do I know. Mmm the seasons pass, but there are solstices. this should be a somewhat simple indication... of the forces at hand. im not into astrology, b t w this is just a metaphor... the cosmos is omnipotent little starfields are less influential than the whole that is everywhere in every direction. wake up to the inner whighte.
Edited by Shampioenier (07/21/06 06:04 AM)
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper



Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,808
Loc: Swamp
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What do you believe?
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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