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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Precisely
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: what is mind?
indeed, what is mind? I have a reason to believe that it exists. and that reason I believe comes from my mind, therfore we are never certain what "reason" or "belief" is. If "mind" is the physical brain, than we are all machines incappable of controling ourselves. just a thought.
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: dblaney]
#5870388 - 07/17/06 06:49 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said: If god does exist, he is a thing, a very specific thing
Why?
religious zealots to proclaim god as something that can not be known
I'd add that they proclaim him as unknowable, yet they proclaim his will to be knowable and enforcable.
If you want to believe in something, I'd suggest believing in reality. Drop conceptions and intellectualizations on this 'God' BS, and then you just may discover that 'God' is in fact reality, everything, including us.
what is reality?
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Reality is spacial and temporal (and all other dimensions if they exist) distribution of forces and matter (and all other forms of existence) in the universe.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: Reality is spacial and temporal (and all other dimensions if they exist) distribution of forces and matter (and all other forms of existence) in the universe.
what is the inversion of that statement? Can you be certain that people are real...what about yourself?
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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I can't be certain of anything, but that just proves how real I am, if I did know everything, I'd suspect that all reality is a product of my imagination, this way, my imperfections and inability to control things speaks in favour that I am a part of reality, and not that reality is a part of me.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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many religions focus on metal control. ex. believing that they control the direction of a candle flame, therefore attaining reality in the concept that they are in control. Is that they are creating an alteration of reality and perceived in the sence that the optics of the candle are present? Very much agreed I don't believe anyone can be certain of anything. Notice the fact that I just used the word "believe" in that last sentance. Can you relatively or medially believe something? I believe that you can.
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: Newbie]
#5871212 - 07/17/06 09:39 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
NewbieShroomie said: I'm really interested in what you have to say, however I refuse to read a block paragraph.
are you refering to the instance in which I try to logicaly define the target of perception? I define the condidtion of matter and the belief of matter and its properties.
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Panoramix
Getafix


Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 634
Loc: Everywhere else
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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"I miss being a kid, don't you? everything was very simple and where it was supposed to be. no need to find the answers to questions that didn't matter." --BlackDragon999
As a kid I had an insatiable lust for useless questions. Not necessarily the answers, mind you, but the questions. In my youth, nothing was simple, everything was unique and magical and inexplicable, but such fun to try to explain, to flail at truths that didn't matter with a feeble, inexperienced mind. Then people started teaching me 'truths', talk about ruining a good thing! I guess I was an odd one...
"You make a good point. If god does exist, he is a thing, a very specific thing, and if we knew him more, we could describe him with more words than just "god" or what we imagine about him.
But it is the "job" of religious zealots to proclaim god as something that can not be known, and therefore are isolating it from all atempts to understand it and are fueling the skepticism." --OWS
Um, since when do zealots seek to encourage skepticism? Zealots generally try to encourage others to hold their particular set of views, and have a level of faith completely unshakable by skepticism. I'm fairly sure that's an integral part of being a zealot, really. Unless you're using some nifty new definition of zealot that means 'bloke who encourages the critiquing of religious doctrine' rather than the current definition, which is pretty much the opposite of that.
"In reality, you don't know what god is anymore than anyone of us. Maybe he is a man selling icecream." --OWS
"What if God was one of us? Just a stranger on the bus?
I bet you'd forgotten that song existed, eh? Not too happy to be reminded of it, are ya? I really don't blame you, I've just felt compelled to burst into song all day long. Terribly sorry, I couldn't resist.
NewbieShroomie said: "I'm really interested in what you have to say, however I refuse to read a block paragraph."
Blackdragon999 replied: "are you refering to the instance in which I try to logicaly define the target of perception? I define the condidtion of matter and the belief of matter and its properties."
I think he's referring to the way your initial post is almost all in one big lump, rather than being broken into seperate paragraphs for seperate points. There's just no pleasing some folks, I thought it was a very nice post, and welcome to the Shroomery.
Though I do disagree with it. In what ways do I disagree with your initial post? Hold on, let me post this, then I'll post another bit explaining where I agree with you and where our views differ, not that I expect you to care or anything, I'm just, y'know, talking atcha. Make of it what you will...
-------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: Panoramix]
#5871550 - 07/17/06 11:08 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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thank you... I am not a "gramatical enthusiast", just a thinker. I write things as they come out of my head, I never think to erase or correct anything.
"As a kid I had an insatiable lust for useless questions. Not necessarily the answers, mind you, but the questions. In my youth, nothing was simple, everything was unique and magical and inexplicable, but such fun to try to explain, to flail at truths that didn't matter with a feeble, inexperienced mind. Then people started teaching me 'truths', talk about ruining a good thing! I guess I was an odd one..." Panoramix
so was I, very odd(At least thats what I thought). I agree with that point. you're right it was exciting to discover things simply for what they where instead of analytic assumptions.
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Edited by blackdragon999 (07/17/06 11:08 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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you are describing mind maybe a machine maybe with free will
keep on keeping on. and good work this thread could equally be called why I do believe in god? or what am I interested in anyway?
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: you are describing mind maybe a machine maybe with free will
keep on keeping on. and good work this thread could equally be called why I do believe in god? or what am I interested in anyway?
yes very much agreed... thank you, the new title for this post is... "Why god dosn't believe in me"
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Panoramix
Getafix


Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 634
Loc: Everywhere else
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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"no person can consciously make any choice to do anything"
I disagree with you on this point out of simple respect for my own irrationality and my hope that my actions can exist relatively independently of my circumstances. If I can't conciously choose, then I'd expect the choices I make to make more sense. It's not a conclusive argument, but mechanism can be as hard to argue against as faith, I've found. Really, I'd just rather your first point weren't true, but I've got no demonstrable evidence to the contrary.
"there is no definition of 'real' or 'fake' is is all perception"
I agree with that, real and false are values we attribute to things, values with only subjective meanings. And since subjective meanings can't be shared with others (at least, not accurately) they lose all value should you decide they do. But I guess that goes back to your first point, no one's deciding anything according to you, eh?
"people act and think on instinct, and have no original thoughts" I disagree with on the same grounds as your first point. I can't prove the originality of my own thoughts to you or anyone else, but I'm satisified they are original, as they are original to my own subjective experience of reality.
"spiritual realms do not exist, if so the knowlege of such would make the two planes colide. therfore providing in the mind a gateway, which is physical."
Capliberty did a good job of illustrating how a spiritual plane could co-exist harmoniously with a physical plane, that the two to enmesh rather than collide on page 1. I liked his bit about this point.
"everyone is looking for truth, however it is not possible of being 100% sure of anything."
I pretty much agree with you there. I'd like to think I bear the unprovability of things in mind and hence do not lust after 'truths' I know to be false, subjective or at the very least incommunicable. But hey, I look both ways before I cross the street when jaywalking. That suggests I feel there is some objective truth about cars and their relative placements and momentums that I can discern by looking for it.
"okay... lets think about this, "god" is spirit, you are not, but you believe you have a spiritual property to your soul which you use to comunicate. how do you transpose into that "spiritual property" of your being? if you are aware of doing it, you must be thinking it, therefore making it mental. even if it is a feeling of great depth, or joy, or an inner peace. it can all be created in a lab"
I would disagree with that just based on my personal experiences, but maybe I just haven't spent enough time in labs...
Anyhow, good post.
-------------------- Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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blackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: Panoramix]
#5872130 - 07/18/06 02:06 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Panoramix said: "no person can consciously make any choice to do anything"
I disagree with you on this point out of simple respect for my own irrationality and my hope that my actions can exist relatively independently of my circumstances. If I can't conciously choose, then I'd expect the choices I make to make more sense. It's not a conclusive argument, but mechanism can be as hard to argue against as faith, I've found. Really, I'd just rather your first point weren't true, but I've got no demonstrable evidence to the contrary.
"there is no definition of 'real' or 'fake' is is all perception"
I agree with that, real and false are values we attribute to things, values with only subjective meanings. And since subjective meanings can't be shared with others (at least, not accurately) they lose all value should you decide they do. But I guess that goes back to your first point, no one's deciding anything according to you, eh?
"people act and think on instinct, and have no original thoughts" I disagree with on the same grounds as your first point. I can't prove the originality of my own thoughts to you or anyone else, but I'm satisified they are original, as they are original to my own subjective experience of reality.
"spiritual realms do not exist, if so the knowlege of such would make the two planes colide. therfore providing in the mind a gateway, which is physical."
Capliberty did a good job of illustrating how a spiritual plane could co-exist harmoniously with a physical plane, that the two to enmesh rather than collide on page 1. I liked his bit about this point.
"everyone is looking for truth, however it is not possible of being 100% sure of anything."
I pretty much agree with you there. I'd like to think I bear the unprovability of things in mind and hence do not lust after 'truths' I know to be false, subjective or at the very least incommunicable. But hey, I look both ways before I cross the street when jaywalking. That suggests I feel there is some objective truth about cars and their relative placements and momentums that I can discern by looking for it.
"okay... lets think about this, "god" is spirit, you are not, but you believe you have a spiritual property to your soul which you use to comunicate. how do you transpose into that "spiritual property" of your being? if you are aware of doing it, you must be thinking it, therefore making it mental. even if it is a feeling of great depth, or joy, or an inner peace. it can all be created in a lab"
I would disagree with that just based on my personal experiences, but maybe I just haven't spent enough time in labs...
Anyhow, good post.
Quote:
no person can consciously make any choice to do anything"
I disagree with you on this point out of simple respect for my own irrationality and my hope that my actions can exist relatively independently of my circumstances. If I can't conciously choose, then I'd expect the choices I make to make more sense. It's not a conclusive argument, but mechanism can be as hard to argue against as faith, I've found. Really, I'd just rather your first point weren't true, but I've got no demonstrable evidence to the contrary.
I believe your actions do exist independently of your circumstances(and the interface in which you find you mental state, to interact with those circumstances). What are people? Programs? There is a reason you get angry sometimes... there is a reason some people are always sad. There is a reason why it never snows anymore. Those are all instances where things don't have to make sence... they are what they are. Your external social mentality incorporates congruent beliefs to oppositional and corresponding beliefs. I could probably make you angry if I tried... why is that? Because it would be my target, if you were aware of that you would probably do something to prevent yourself from getting angry. Or would you?
Quote:
"there is no definition of 'real' or 'fake' is is all perception"
I agree with that, real and false are values we attribute to things, values with only subjective meanings. And since subjective meanings can't be shared with others (at least, not accurately) they lose all value should you decide they do. But I guess that goes back to your first point, no one's deciding anything according to you, eh?
haha, just one question...are you a hypertext programmer?... the words "value" and "attribute" seem familiar. You can ignore that last statement if you want. You are right however, thank you.
Quote:
"people act and think on instinct, and have no original thoughts" I disagree with on the same grounds as your first point. I can't prove the originality of my own thoughts to you or anyone else, but I'm satisified they are original, as they are original to my own subjective experience of reality.
well put... I wish I had the answer to this question but thats why I go back to my first statement."no person can consciously make any choice to do anything" the question is where did "thoughts" come from?
Quote:
"spiritual realms do not exist, if so the knowlege of such would make the two planes colide. therfore providing in the mind a gateway, which is physical."
Capliberty did a good job of illustrating how a spiritual plane could co-exist harmoniously with a physical plane, that the two to enmesh rather than collide on page 1. I liked his bit about this point.
Thank you.
Quote:
"everyone is looking for truth, however it is not possible of being 100% sure of anything."
I pretty much agree with you there. I'd like to think I bear the unprovability of things in mind and hence do not lust after 'truths' I know to be false, subjective or at the very least incommunicable. But hey, I look both ways before I cross the street when jaywalking. That suggests I feel there is some objective truth about cars and their relative placements and momentums that I can discern by looking for it.
What if that reality was inverted? What if you were certain that you WOULD get hit when you walked across the street(or ran). ex. you are commiting suiside. You could therefore determine what was "truth" by avoiding it all together. Therefore proving it "true" by ending your life. But doe's that make it true? The car could still stop before it hits you.
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Shampioenier
Storm in aTeaCup


Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 260
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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God is Both Known and Unknown. God is BEYOND BINARY LOGIC OF MERE COMPUTERS. Furthermore. To say that we have no choice to do anything is the philosophy of Determinism. And although I believe in Destiny, even Predestiny, I believe there is Both Freedom and Predestiny. How can I say that. Because, perhaps we cannot choose to do something, but we certainly can choose to do nothing. Like Zen Master Xu Yun, Empty Cloud, who just lay on the groundf as the Chinese communists beat him and kicked him for 6 hours to tell them where the Treasure of the Zen Temple Is. Of course, they did not realise that master Xu Yun was the Treasure of the Zen Temple. He did not react to their attacks. He chose to do nothing. Which really sometimes is the greatest act imaginable. In other instances its instigated by mere vegetabitality...
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Shampioenier
Storm in aTeaCup


Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 260
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: WHO GOD IS, AND WHAT ZEN IS [Re: Shampioenier]
#5883700 - 07/21/06 06:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yes the car could stop, it if was going slow enough and you were far enough away. the trick now depends on if you are really suicidal but too dumb to choose a very fast car, or not really suicidal, and choosing a slow one.. God is waiting for someone to tell him a good Joke, you know. God exists. Hmmm How do I know. Mmm the seasons pass, but there are solstices. this should be a somewhat simple indication... of the forces at hand. im not into astrology, b t w this is just a metaphor... the cosmos is omnipotent little starfields are less influential than the whole that is everywhere in every direction. wake up to the inner whighte.
Edited by Shampioenier (07/21/06 06:04 AM)
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper



Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,808
Loc: Swamp
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What do you believe?
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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