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Invisibleblackdragon999
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Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
why I don't believe in god
    #5868289 - 07/17/06 05:14 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

what is life?... look around you, there are different colors, things are constantly moving around you there is a notable balance and consistency to everything. but how do you know that? how do you know you are not making it up? I am not a christian. I did not post this for the purpose of being confusing or offensive. I simply "observe" all things. this is my theory:

*no person can consciously make any choice to do anything
*there is no definition of "real" or "fake" is is all perception
*people act and think on instinct, and have no original thoughts
*spiritual realms do not exist, if so the knowlege of such would make the two planes colide. therfore providing in the mind a gateway, which is physical.
*everyone is looking for truth, however it is not possible of being 100% sure of anything.


I have studied much, and yet I have no answers to any question, do you believe you can have complete faith? how is it possible? I have found many lies and deceptions along my way. I have come to find that "truth" is the target motivated by faith. without truth you cannot believe. and once you have aquired total faith you have no more will to find truth, for you have aquired it(in your mind).

I miss being a kid, don't you? everything was very simple and where it was supposed to be. no need to find the answers to questions that didn't matter. but as a kid you develop habbits and memories that you use as tools as an adult. for instance "this bowl is clean" is something you were taught as a kid..."this fork is dirty".... a mental image of the differece between "dirty" and "clean" is developed. can you choose wherther it is clean or dirty...no... and yes. that is how we make choices and come up with conclusions. for instance I can conclude that If you have read this far you are either interested, bored,amused or you're still trying to firgure out why the hell I posted this. provided with my asumption(something that is devolped by repetition and function). When you go into the fridge to grab an apple, do you think you could choose between that and the banana? you would logicaly say "yes" being your perception of your right to choose. ex. you have faith in god right? how do you know that? because you believe it! so if you believed that you could choose the apple over the banana...you could right?! wrong. your brain makes the choice for you. chemicaly your brain remembers the taste of a banana and things that go along with it(your nutritional values, your apitite(motivated by things around you and interfaces) your level of hunger...ect...) so therfore your brain is a machine and that machine tells you that you are going to choose the banana. but you say, thats ridiculus I can choose the apple if I feel like it. okay... the fact that I told you that you were going to choose the banana chalenges you to prove me wrong, instinctivly you will now choose the apple. therefore making the choice for you.

Spirits and angels and demons are very much alike you mind telling you what to see. it happens in your dreams all the time, you see things that arn't really there, even feelings that arn't there. somewhat relative to real live. if you really could contact a spirit (in a spiritual realm) then that would mean that a physical aspect of your being would have to be aware that you were in that realm. ex. "I got a word from god" okay... lets think about this, "god" is spirit, you are not, but you believe you have a spiritual property to your soul which you use to comunicate. how do you transpose into that "spiritual property" of your being? if you are aware of doing it, you must be thinking it, therefore making it mental. even if it is a feeling of great depth, or joy, or an inner peace. it can all be created in a lab or manifested in your mind. I have no reservation to believe that I am alive right now, I have no reason not to at the moment, it still doen't mean I'm not really here. I believe that in order for you to have complete faith you must first put aside logic and reason, which leaves you ignorant. to be completly sure of anything requires that you put aside questions in your mind about its state of reality, the human brain is not capable of that. since we have determined that the mind is very unstable we also determine that it isn't possible to be certain of anything even me being aware of being alive right now could be an illusion, even god. if you can please show me how to have faith, I have found none in my life. am I certain that all the things I have just said are true? of course not, you must make the judgement for yourself, as will I. I hope I am not confusing I'm just tring to find my way like everyone else.


Edited by blackdragon999 (07/17/06 11:40 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: blackdragon999]
    #5868331 - 07/17/06 05:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Before we continue this discussion. Please explain what is "spiritual" and what is "spirit"?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisibleblackdragon999
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Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5868348 - 07/17/06 06:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Before we continue this discussion. Please explain what is "spiritual" and what is "spirit"?




I believe "spirit" and "spiritual" are words that are used but people(many religions)to describe the interface between the seen and unseen realms. a "spirit" could be described as a ghost or a vision (which many clinicaly insane people see on very regular occasions) Which you can also mentaly create.These terms I believe to be myths. "spiritual" An imaginary plane which many believe colides with the physical place in which we find ourselves now. I personaly do not believe that such a plane exists.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: blackdragon999]
    #5868387 - 07/17/06 06:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

In your previous post, you described god as a spirit. Your definition of the spirit would suggest then that god is something imaginary.
If god is an imaginary concept, how come you don't believe in it?
I mean it's very obvious that people DO imagine it, therefore as imaginary concept it does exist.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5868413 - 07/17/06 06:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

it is possible that you already have unpacked all the answers from your boxes, and then (in haste, or possibly embarrassement) you put them back in other boxes - it's all a mess.

now you complain that you have to build new shelves to help you organize the mess.

or you could have a lawn sale, and then just let new stuff come up as it is just bound to, and deal fairly with that; make no unecessary additions, and see things for what they are like veritas


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisibleblackdragon999
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Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5868422 - 07/17/06 07:04 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

you ask why I don't believe in something imaginary?... I do in an "imaginary concept" as you put it anything can exist. ex. an imaginary friend that is real to me may be something that you will never see. I my mind it is as real as anything else like this desk or this keyboard, which are things that I perceive to be real simply because for some reason I have determined these things to be real. I do not imagine god...I don't wish him to be real, therefore he doe's not exist to me. many people have told me they believe in god because... "I feel safe believing in a god because he promises eternal life...ect...ect" that is a motive to WANT to believe. or it is said that people believe simply because it is a reservation. ex. even if they found in the end that there really was no god then they really have lost nothing, so they continue to believe based on fear of going to hell(being the extreme). In reply to your comment, yes I believe in the concept of god existing as a conceptional element, but only in a mental state of mind.


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Invisibleblackdragon999
Mason

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 202
Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5868428 - 07/17/06 07:08 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it is possible that you already have unpacked all the answers from your boxes, and then (in haste, or possibly embarrassement) you put them back in other boxes - it's all a mess.

now you complain that you have to build new shelves to help you organize the mess.

or you could have a lawn sale, and then just let new stuff come up as it is just bound to, and deal fairly with that; make no unecessary additions, and see things for what they are like veritas




what are you refering to?


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: blackdragon999]
    #5868449 - 07/17/06 07:25 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

These two statements are analogous:

"I don't believe in god"

"I do not define the word god in a useful manner"




The complete intangibility of god means it will never be seen or proven. The absolute/infinite attributes possessed by god mean god will never be encompassed by our minds (fully understood). God is a perspective, an idea, not a physical thing.

By 'not believing' in god you are simply deciding god is not an idea you can hold in your mind for positive purposes.

My definition of god is 'everything'. This is an 'entity' I can believe in, but which I seldom have reason to do anything other than respect or admire.

I consider the traditional religious oversimplification of god (He's a man who wants you to do stuff apparently...) to be blasphemous.

I would have made the same statement as you (about 'not believing in god') until recently. I held this stance for similar reasons to you, believing submission to faith inevitably leads to ignorance. However, recently, I simply found a more appropriate definition of god for myself... one which left things like my 'logic' and 'reason' intact, yet allowed me to communicate in a more positive way with those who love god.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #5868498 - 07/17/06 07:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

what is mind?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5868524 - 07/17/06 08:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I used to have some mind, then I ran out of it. I've been out of my mind for so long that I don't remember what it is - but I KNOW that I had some. All I have here and now is some awareness, but that's OK, I don't mind. Oh...nevermind.


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5868585 - 07/17/06 08:42 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

MAYBE GOD DOESNT BELIEVE IN U. ?


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5868594 - 07/17/06 08:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

faith is the target motivated by truth. Isn't it good if, say someone is literally dying of hunger or thirst, to feed them or quench their thirst. And no, the God that you can know, does not exist, because God really is only God by Being unknowable. Thats what being God is all about, really. And thats the only way ta know the fellar.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: blackdragon999]
    #5868726 - 07/17/06 09:46 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

blackdragon999 said:
you ask why I don't believe in something imaginary?... I do in an "imaginary concept" as you put it anything can exist. ex. an imaginary friend that is real to me may be something that you will never see. I my mind it is as real as anything else like this desk or this keyboard, which are things that I perceive to be real simply because for some reason I have determined these things to be real. I do not imagine god...I don't wish him to be real, therefore he doe's not exist to me. many people have told me they believe in god because... "I feel safe believing in a god because he promises eternal life...ect...ect" that is a motive to WANT to believe. or it is said that people believe simply because it is a reservation. ex. even if they found in the end that there really was no god then they really have lost nothing, so they continue to believe based on fear of going to hell(being the extreme). In reply to your comment, yes I believe in the concept of god existing as a conceptional element, but only in a mental state of mind.




I'm just trying to make sense of your post. You started by saying you don't believe in god (probably you ment god as a real being), and then proclaimed god spiritual, which means imaginary.
From that point of view, christians and other religions don't believe god to be spiritual. But they do.
You are confusing me with your definitions of words


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5868731 - 07/17/06 09:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it is possible that you already have unpacked all the answers from your boxes, and then (in haste, or possibly embarrassement) you put them back in other boxes - it's all a mess.

now you complain that you have to build new shelves to help you organize the mess.

or you could have a lawn sale, and then just let new stuff come up as it is just bound to, and deal fairly with that; make no unecessary additions, and see things for what they are like veritas




who, me?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5868739 - 07/17/06 09:51 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shampioenier said:
faith is the target motivated by truth. Isn't it good if, say someone is literally dying of hunger or thirst, to feed them or quench their thirst. And no, the God that you can know, does not exist, because God really is only God by Being unknowable. Thats what being God is all about, really. And thats the only way ta know the fellar.




You make a good point. If god does exist, he is a thing, a very specific thing, and if we knew him more, we could describe him with more words than just "god" or what we imagine about him.

But it is the "job" of religious zealots to proclaim god as something that can not be known, and therefore are isolating it from all atempts to understand it and are fueling the skepticism.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5868770 - 07/17/06 10:05 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

If god does exist, he is a thing, a very specific thing

Why?

religious zealots to proclaim god as something that can not be known

I'd add that they proclaim him as unknowable, yet they proclaim his will to be knowable and enforcable.


If you want to believe in something, I'd suggest believing in reality. Drop conceptions and intellectualizations on this 'God' BS, and then you just may discover that 'God' is in fact reality, everything, including us.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: dblaney]
    #5869064 - 07/17/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


I have studied much, and yet I have no answers to any question, do you believe you can have complete faith? how is it possible? I have found many lies and deceptions along my way. I have come to find that "truth" is the target motivated by faith. without truth you cannot believe. and once you have acquired total faith you have no more will to find truth, for you have acquired it(in your mind). I miss being a kid, don't you? everything was very simple and where it was supposed to be. no need to find the answers to questions that didn't matter. but as a kid you develop habits and memories that you use as tools as an adult. for instance "this bowl is clean" is something you were taught as a kid..."this fork is dirty".... a mental image of the difference between "dirty" and "clean" is developed. can you choose whether it is clean or dirty...no... and yes. that is how we make choices and come up with conclusions. for instance I can conclude that If you have read this far you are either interested, bored,amused or you're still trying to figure out why the hell I posted this. provided with my assumption(something that is developed by repetition and function). When you go into the fridge to grab an apple, do you think you could choose between that and the banana? you would logically say "yes" being your perception of your right to choose. ex. you have faith in god right? how do you know that? because you believe it! so if you believed that you could choose the apple over the banana...you could right?! wrong. your brain makes the choice for you. chemically your brain remembers the taste of a banana and things that go along with it(your nutritional values, your appetite(motivated by things around you and interfaces) your level of hunger...ect...) so therefore your brain is a machine and that machine tells you that you are going to choose the banana. but you say, thats ridiculous I can choose the apple if I feel like it. okay... the fact that I told you that you were going to choose the banana challenges you to prove me wrong, instinctively you will now choose the apple. therefore making the choice for you. spirits and angels and demons are very much alike you mind telling you what to see. it happens in your dreams all the time, you see things that aren't really there, even feelings that aren't there. somewhat relative to real live. if you really could contact a spirit (in a spiritual realm) then that would mean that a physical aspect of your being would have to be aware that you were in that realm. ex. "I got a word from god" okay... lets think about this, "god" is spirit, you are not, but you believe you have a spiritual property to your soul which you use to communicate. how do you transpose into that "spiritual property" of your being? if you are aware of doing it, you must be thinking it, therefore making it mental. even if it is a feeling of great depth, or joy, or an inner peace. it can all be created in a lab or manifested in your mind. I have no reservation to believe that I am alive right now, I have no reason not to at the moment, it still don't mean I'm not really here. I believe that in order for you to have complete faith you must first put aside logic and reason, which leaves you ignorant. to be completely sure of anything requires that you put aside questions in your mind about its state of reality, the human brain is not capable of that. since we have determined that the mind is very unstable we also determine that it isn't possible to be certain of anything even me being aware of being alive right now could be an illusion, even god. if you can please show me how to have faith, I have found none in my life. am I certain that all the things I have just said are true? of course not, you must make the judgment for yourself, as will I. I hope I am not confusing I'm just trying to find my way like everyone else. thank you ladies and gentleman for listening.




mathematics bro, right now your hovering around algebra, which manipulates a little beyond the surface but ur still trying to apply non dimensional concepts of this existence to a multi dimenisional existence, as our existence pertains really only to 3 dimensional universe but really existence itself is defined by infinite dimensions by logic and math,

I'm saying logic isn't going to uncover all the unknowns, but it'll uncover a few misconceptions

their can be an infinite amount of planes and subspaces that can co exist, because dimensionally they can, meaning anything in 4th won't collide in the 3rd, actually they can be intermeshed, or coexist in the same space, why because the lower dimensions aren't divided by the higher, but define the higher, and the higher are dependent upon the lower, thats why "spirits" if you want to call them that, can hover in lower dimensions because part of nature exists in these lower dimensions but their existence isn't limited to these lower dimensions, but actually in higher, making them exist on a higher physical plane, because their existence isn't defined by 3 dimensions, which defines height, width, depth from a single arbitrary point called the universe, this defines an object because its adds the 2 dimensional plane with depth, 4 defines time, which defines action, which time wouldn't exist if there weren't action to differentiate a measured change, and theirs a 5th dimension, 6th........on to infinity, very large, actually infinity has no size, it becomes a different concept in itself, but can always be used to measure any particular numerical reference within its universe, because its the all encompusing, the complete, most people can't perceive beyond the 4th, and some can perceive 5, 5th suppose to define space or something, that space isn't really space, there's an inner space within space, so this aleast clear up one misconception about knowing realms and planes colliding, even if they do collide its not a real collision, more like an inner mesh, do you see any ghosts if assuming one by definition would not colliding into walls, besides I've seen some vivid hullucinations, more ghostly, not like shroom hullucinations, but more transparent, flying around on their own accord,


Edited by capliberty (07/17/06 12:38 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: dblaney]
    #5869103 - 07/17/06 12:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
If god does exist, he is a thing, a very specific thing

Why?

religious zealots to proclaim god as something that can not be known

I'd add that they proclaim him as unknowable, yet they proclaim his will to be knowable and enforcable.


If you want to believe in something, I'd suggest believing in reality. Drop conceptions and intellectualizations on this 'God' BS, and then you just may discover that 'God' is in fact reality, everything, including us.




Yea, that's the smart answer to the god question. Good for sounding enlightened. Plus it's something compatible with all beliefs. I used to say that too. It has a ring to it.

In reality, you don't know what god is anymore than anyone of us.
Maybe he is a man selling icecream.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: dblaney]
    #5869786 - 07/17/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

If God is identical to reality... why would we ever use the word "God"?


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OfflineNewbieS
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Re: why I don't believe in god [Re: blackdragon999]
    #5869818 - 07/17/06 04:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I'm really interested in what you have to say, however I refuse to read a block paragraph.


Edited by Newbie (07/17/06 04:21 PM)


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