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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute
    #5864427 - 07/16/06 05:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I am doing an experiment my next grow in hopes to find a reasonabe replacement for Vermiculite in BRF/VERM jars. I will keep the ratios the same, 2 parts verm substitute, 1 part BRF, 1 part water, and I will sterilize for an hour in a pot. I will use Tyvek, Polyfil, or whatever I can find to filter my holes.

The Vermiculite substitute will also be chopped up into verm sized pieces.

Now, what do YOU believe will most likely work. Choose four, I will make 2 of each type of the most popular with slightly varying water levels. The last four jars will use vermiculite as comparison (and a savior if none of these work)

-Pumice Pieces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumice

-Popped, Plain Popcorn Pieces

-Pebbles

-Packing Foam Pieces
http://www.lard.net/packing.html

-Chopped up cardboard

-Thick Clothe Pieces

-Wood Chips

-Cotton Pieces

If you have any that seem reasonable (nonpoisonous, porous, thick pieces, [optional]non-nutritious) Please tell me and I'll possibly add them.


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5864489 - 07/16/06 06:39 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think any veterans are going to accept any of those...

IME- The cardboard, cotton, wood chips, cloth, and peanuts are definetly out as they will not act/react at all like vermiculite...


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5864494 - 07/16/06 06:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I don't understand what wouldn't work with cardboard- it's open and air so mycelium will have room to move through, and that's why you use vermiculite in the first place. It will also keep in a lot of hydration.

I think I will still try one thing of cardboard with something that will retain a lot of moisture, like perlite of clothe.

Clothe I could see being out because it may not be so airy and difficult to have to cut up every time you make a new batch of jars. So maybe cardboard with bits of paper towel for better hydration? Possibly perlite and cardboard?

I'm thinking, and I'm doing lots of research, and I can use all the help you guys can give me. Any input, any at all, will be much appreciated... And I'll be sure to thank you when the "vermiculite free PF Tek" Comes out  :wink:


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5864504 - 07/16/06 06:57 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Here are a couple related quotes from posts on the main page.

Quote:

there really is no substitute for vermiculite, I've recently found it a Lowes
you can also purchase it online, a couple of our vendors carry it and most hydro shops as well




Quote:



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

beatnicknick said:
Just wondering if what I have heard was a bunch of bullshit


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That would be a good assessment of using popcorn to replace vermiculite.
RR




One is from your other Verm replacement popcorn thread where RR also said,
Quote:

Somebody should try scooping up some very small gravel from a stream bed or something and trying that. I've also seen some pretty course beach sand around fresh water lakes. If vermiculite goes away, it would be nice to have a few ideas in mind.
RR





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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5864531 - 07/16/06 07:17 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Reply to quote 1: I'm not looking for vermiculite, I have plenty. I'm looking an alternative that I don't have to take any precautions for. If nothing works, I will settle with it, but for the next few grows I'll be looking for an alternative.

Reply to quote 2: Are you saying I should definitley not try popped popcorn? I think one jar wouldn't hurt, and the only reason I could see it not working is because of its not all that airy. But still, it'll pretty fluffy and airy, and can be used as more nutrition.

Reply to quote 3: Definitly going to try, especially if it came out of RR's mouth (or fingers) I have a stream with consistently small circular pebbles right in the yard.  :thumbup:


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


Edited by beatnicknick (07/16/06 07:20 AM)


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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5864536 - 07/16/06 07:19 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It sure can't hurt to try...if your willing.


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Offlineimtank
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5864584 - 07/16/06 07:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

im not sure any of those will work, i dont think any of those will hold moisture as well as verm...plus verm keeps the substrate from compacting...the only thing i could think of was perlite...but i heard that doesnt work well either


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: imtank]
    #5864663 - 07/16/06 08:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well mushrooms don't grow on vermiculite in the wild, it's not like its the only possibility.


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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5864706 - 07/16/06 09:02 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i saw someone on here used dirt and it actually worked


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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: esdfsfd] * 1
    #5864707 - 07/16/06 09:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

dude your obsessed with the carcinogen hooha... just use vermiculite. It's not going to kill you..


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Yamidude]
    #5864757 - 07/16/06 09:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Yamidude said:
dude your obsessed with the carcinogen hooha... just use vermiculite. It's not going to kill you..




But don't you think I'd be doing everyone a favor if I found a nice alternative? One maybe not so hard to find?

Anyway I think I'm just going to mix my verm and put it in my cakes outside, that was my original plan, but then I realised I wanted to dunk and roll and I figured I'd be working with verm too much and it'd be a pain in the ass to be all uppity about not breathing it in and keeping it away from animals and people...

But then I read up on straw and I realised that I could get a large amount, I wouldn't have to case, I wouldn't have to dunk and roll, so I'd only have to use verm once every grow, so I guess I'll just conform to the system and get some more verm at lowes.

If I'm wrong about this tell me, if not, the experiment is shut down.


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5864778 - 07/16/06 09:36 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Your not going to find a cheaper alternative than Verm!~


and you do sound like your obsessed with there being a problem with Vermiculite!~

There is nothing wrong with the Vermiculite that is sold today!~

Period!~

The EPA monitors all the Vermiculite mines very closely!~

:sun:


--------------------
Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


Brainiac said:
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Roadkill]
    #5865037 - 07/16/06 10:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Most of the replacements on your list (if not all) will become a soggy, slimey mess as soon as you put water on them. And pumice will wick moisture away from anything, just like perlite and expanded clay. Edible packing foam actually dissolves entirely in water, cardboard not only will break apart when wet, it also usually contains some form of preservative or fermaldehyde. If you want to experiment with verm replacements, try using water crystals or something else that's not going to become an instant mess!

Anyways, you asked for opinions, there's mine.


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5865143 - 07/16/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

if you switch to bulk growing techniques,
you will be using vermiculte a whole lot less.

only to airate/condition bulk substrate and for casing.
so why don't you just do that?


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: monstermitch]
    #5865152 - 07/16/06 11:36 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think that's what I'll do, so the only time I have to work with vermiculite will be outside with some gloves, quickly mixing it up in a bowl with BRF, throwing it in the jars, putting it as a filter layer, then foiling the tops up. That's it.

I'm not going to even case my bulk substrates, I'll be going by this straw Tek http://www.shroomery.org/index.php/par/7938


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5865158 - 07/16/06 11:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

don't make cakes.

use grain spawn.
that is kind of the point of what I said.


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: monstermitch]
    #5865171 - 07/16/06 11:42 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Also, you have nothing to worry about vermiculite... I don't know why you want to work outside and with protection on... It's not carcinogenic... Read up: http://www.vermiculite.org

quote: 'Vermiculite is one of the safest, most unique minerals in the entire world. A hydrated Magnesium Aluminum Silicate, it is lightweight, inorganic (incombustible), compressible, highly absorbent, non-reactive'

i don't know why you have such a boner over vermiculite replacements :P


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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5865199 - 07/16/06 11:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

liamtheloser said:
i don't know why you have such a boner over vermiculite replacements :P




i think vermiculite is perfectly safe...the mine with the aesbestos contamination was like 25 years ago and was shut down


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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: esdfsfd]
    #5865293 - 07/16/06 12:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Cardboard might work. I think it's great that your trying to find a verm replacement.

Your reasons for trying to find one are wrong though. Verm IS safe, it IS cheap, and it IS easy to find. You'll have a hard time finding something safer, cheaper, or easier to find.

Still it would be nice to have some verm alternatives. Maybe you'll even find something better than verm. Cardboard might be a good one. If you had a crosscut shredder you could easily chop it up into verm sized pieces. The myc could also digest the cardboard for additional fuel, so it might have some benefits.


Verm can be dusty sometimes, and breathing any type of dust is not healthy and will shorten your lifespan. Wood dust is actually fairly carcinogenic, and it's probably a lot more dangerous than verm dust. So I would be careful trying to find a replacement, it might actually end up being a lot more dangerous.


-FF


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: fastfred] * 1
    #5865327 - 07/16/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Oh well my fear mostly came not just from everyone at every store I've gone telling me not to get it because it was deemed carcinogenic three years ago, and even some said that it is only sold by stores that don't give a shit and are only helping the greedy vermiculite companies out while harming customers, but on the actual back of a package it read DO NOT eat, put in mouth, or breath near vermiculite, and always wash your hands immediatley after dealing with it.

I think cardboard, small pebbles, and maybe popped popcorn will work, and I know the right type of kitty litter would (my uncle i just got off the phone with says hes had better success with kitty litter and that I should watch out on these boards anyway because it could be vermiculite companies out to make money telling me theres no substitutes, whether its bad for you or not) i forgot the name he gave me i'll have to call him back and let you all know.

EDIT: not accusing you all of working for vermiculite companies btw, my uncle just has the mind of a business man so he knows how they work in this day and age, and if you search for vermiculite substitute on google, one of the top results is theshroomery so its not like they couldn't have found this place


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


Edited by beatnicknick (07/16/06 12:21 PM)


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5865375 - 07/16/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Vermiculite is safe, it's cheap, and it works excellently.

http://www.vermiculite.com
http://www.vermiculite.org

Obviously you haven't even bothered to read anything from either of those websites. And just so you know, kitty litter is a desiccant, it absorbs then evaporates, drying out poop and pee, and it does it very efficiently.

If you're so worried, just wear a face mask or a respirator. All paranoid drug manufacturers are convinced that everyone is lying to them and only out there to cause harm. Vermiculite is safe, and every bag is tested for asbestos now.

Obviously it's up to you, but if you want to actually have a great deal of success, I'd stick to the teks. If you don't mind wasting time and money, then go ahead and experiment.


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5865389 - 07/16/06 12:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

liamtheloser said:
Vermiculite is safe, it's cheap, and it works excellently.

http://www.vermiculite.com
http://www.vermiculite.org

Obviously you haven't even bothered to read anything from either of those websites.  And just so you know, kitty litter is a desiccant, it absorbs then evaporates, drying out poop and pee, and it does it very efficiently.

If you're so worried, just wear a face mask or a respirator.  All paranoid drug manufacturers are convinced that everyone is lying to them and only out there to cause harm.  Vermiculite is safe, and every bag is tested for asbestos now.

Obviously it's up to you, but if you want to actually have a great deal of success, I'd stick to the teks.  If you don't mind wasting time and money, then go ahead and experiment.




Eh-em using time and money. I like experimenting. It'll only cost me about 10 bucks. Time wont be wasted, I'll just buy 12 more jars. Okay so like 18 bucks. Big Whoop. A good vermiculite substitute, I think everyone can agree, would be beneficial.

I'm guessing your the vermiculite employee btw.

Hahahahah only playing of course. :confused:

EDIT: I think this would work. It's got every vermiculite has, it's airy, holds lots of water for the mycelium, and can be cut made exactly like vermiculite, PLUS its cheaper. Take a paper towel and tear it to little shreds. Roll these shreds up. Let soak in water for 24 hours to get rid of preservative chemicals, like you do with WBS and other grains. Dry out, maybe microwave. Then take your PTBs (paper towel balls) and mix them with your BRF and add your water, same ratios as normal cakes.

I can't see this not working, at all.

Also, natural sea sponges might work too, I've heard the manufactured color died ones have something that wont let spores germinate of something like that. I keep having more ideas. I'll experiment with all of them while I grow a normal verm grow. I WILL find a replacement, and then from then on I'll use that replacement, I'll make a Tek, and never have to use verm again. I'll also have plenty of shrooms from those verm spawned with straw cakes as well. All will be good. I am happy. Wish me luck. I'm staying off the shroomery after tonight for a good while, I must have spent 30 hours on here the last couple of days.


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


Edited by beatnicknick (07/16/06 12:51 PM)


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5865467 - 07/16/06 12:49 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Actually, I make dentures :P Vermiculite employees are trashy inbred miners that live in caves and beat children... I don't even think they know what computers are.


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5865481 - 07/16/06 12:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Exactly what a covert vermiculite sales promoter would say...  :crazy2:


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5865490 - 07/16/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

my uncle i just got off the phone with says hes had better success with kitty litter and that I should watch out on these boards anyway because it could be vermiculite companies out to make money telling me theres no substitutes, whether its bad for you or not




:rolleyes:



yeah and I own stock in All American Pressure Cookers too!~


maybe you should just listen to your Uncle...

he sounds like he way smarter than the rest of us.



tc


--------------------
Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Roadkill]
    #5865569 - 07/16/06 01:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

LMAO

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


After you find a verm. sub , could you find one for the water . All those microbes and things scare me .


--------------------
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Offlinekristen
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: HippieChick]
    #5865606 - 07/16/06 01:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Starting 5 threads over something like this makes you sound about as sharp as a brick. If there was a good alternative, don't you think we'd all be using it?


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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: kristen]
    #5865636 - 07/16/06 01:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Enough with the dissing.  Even though I'm :rofl2: over HC's comment.

Finding a verm substitute is an admirable goal.  Especially if he's willing to do the experimentation required.

The least we can do is help him out with some ideas.


-FF


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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5865933 - 07/16/06 03:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:banghead:

I guess common sense isn't so common anymore.

Edit: FastFred, I just wanted to add that coming up with new ideas is great, but it's his reasoning that bothers me. He still believes that verm is harmful, despite what everyone is telling him. Why fix what ain't broke?


--------------------

Quick WBS Prep


Edited by FooMan (07/16/06 03:44 PM)


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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: fastfred] * 1
    #5865935 - 07/16/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i think its a good idea too.  whats with everyone being so stuck on verm anyway?  its not written in stone we have to use it and never try anything else... how is everyone so sure none of these other things will work if they haven't been tried? we could even stumble onto an alternative that colonizes better, or perhaps one with the same properties as verm yet is also nutritous, boosting the amount of "food" in a cake.  there's regularly posts from people who have a hard time finding it, so just because its cheap and convenient for some doesn't mean that's the case for all.  he's looking for ideas to experiment with, not people telling him not to bother even trying, so either post some ideas or find some other threads to post your pro vermiculite propaganda in! :smile:

kudos and good luck.

and another idea for your list, perhaps some shredded pieces of sponge.


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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: creamcorn]
    #5865966 - 07/16/06 03:49 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

An alternative to verm in a PF jar would be coir. As far as a casing goes, he wouldn't want a nutritious alternative.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: FooMan]
    #5865978 - 07/16/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

FooManShroom said:
An alternative to verm in a PF jar would be coir. As far as a casing goes, he wouldn't want a nutritious alternative.



Agreed


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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5866159 - 07/16/06 04:57 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

beatnicknick said:
Oh well my fear mostly came not just from everyone at every store I've gone telling me not to get it because it was deemed carcinogenic three years ago, and even some said that it is only sold by stores that don't give a shit and are only helping the greedy vermiculite companies out while harming customers, but on the actual back of a package it read DO NOT eat, put in mouth, ...




maybe you should find stores with smarter employees.

Why try to replace something that is safe, cheap and effective??

You're trying to reinvent the wheel.


--------------------
Hot Water Pasteuriztion - A How To Pictorial
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4527808/an/0/page/0

Make your own shroom chocolates
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4500682/an/0/page/5

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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: creamcorn]
    #5867461 - 07/16/06 09:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

creamcorn said:
how is everyone so sure none of these other things will work if they haven't been tried?





I don't need to jump off the top of a skyscraper with nothing but an umbrella to know it's not a good idea and won't work,lol. :grin:

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
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Offlinefaceyneck
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: HippieChick]
    #5867524 - 07/16/06 09:50 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

beatnicknick might just be incredibly paranoid, but his paranoia might lend some insight... at least into what one shouldn't do in mycology, and maybe something more positive, like a good verm subsitute, even though I thought they already exist.

I thought you can use rockwool.


--------------------
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Offlinefaceyneck
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5867545 - 07/16/06 09:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

liamtheloser said:
Actually, I make dentures :P  Vermiculite employees are trashy inbred miners that live in caves and beat children... I don't even think they know what computers are.




Oh, c'mon, Liam. Everyone on this sight knows you've been trying to push vermiculite on the masses for decades. :rolleyes:


--------------------
Anything posted here, is total bullshit.
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New growers, or anyone else just needing help; I'm always glad to help right here. :grin:


We give cultivation advice here. :super:


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: faceyneck]
    #5867670 - 07/16/06 10:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

you're right, you're right... although i'm a firm believer that there is no such thing as a white collar vermiculite peddler, I do happen to eat a lot of vermiculite, and run a small time mining facility out of my ass. But it's local and organic, so you gotta give me some credit.


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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5867753 - 07/16/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

#1 problem with the mentality of western science:

its far too proactive, always looking to the next breakthrough or invention instead of perfecting what we already have.  instead of solving problems they create alternatives. 

fuck that. 
:gethigh:


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Omnicracker]
    #5868136 - 07/17/06 02:02 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you to those with supportive posts and showing some maturity and creativity.
Lets say vermiculite has no danger at all, all of the owners of these stores were misinformed and the whole thing was just a big mistake. It's still a pain in the ass to get when you're like me and the nearest lowes is 30 miles away, to drive down and then they tell you it doesn't meet the safety standards, so you have to fill out a form on the internet, use a credit card, wait a week or two.

Wouldn't it be nice to grab something at the supermarket you got your brown rice flower or wild bird seed from? It'd certainly encourage a lot of newbies to start, and that's more shrooms for the people.

So is it really so far-fetched to experiment? Sure there's a little sacrifice involved, say $18, but based on how much people are making fun of me, I'm VERY discouraged to experiment, to "reinvent the wheel"

However I'll take this and only use it as a reason to try even harder to get a good working substitute (they're out there, you have to be EXTREMELY close minded to think this is the only way shrooms will grow well with brown rice flower)

I'm really disappointed in this group though, I thought you guys were above this sort of thing, and were the types that rooted for an underdog.

Whatever. You'll see.


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OfflineComfortablyStond
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Omnicracker]
    #5868146 - 07/17/06 02:12 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think experimenting is great, and for that, I think you should be commended. That being said, experiment because you have a passion for it, or are just curious. Don't believe what some yokels at fuckin' Wal-Mart, or wherever, told you...they work in fuckin' Wal-Mart, for shit's sake. If it's cancer and carcinogens you're worried about, well, you're kinda fucked there. Everything causes cancer!!! A few years ago, they concluded that apples are chock full of carcinogens. Grapes cause cancer now too. Assuming that you live in a house, or at the very least, a structure with a shingled roof, your very dwelling place is covered with carcinogens. Every bundle of shingles has a warning lable that reads, "This product contains chemicals known by the State of California to cause cancer." I assume that if you don't live in California, you're safe, but that's beside the point.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, if you're really that distressed about carcinogens, I think vermiculite is the absolute LEAST of your worries.

The only "sub-substrate" you mentioned that might work IMO is the shredded cardboard. And I say this only because I know there are species like certain oysters that can be grown successfully using cardboard. By all means, experiment your ass off, and let us know your findings...but stop the paranoia, man!!! There's lots worse things to worry about in this particular hobby than dying 30 years from now of cancer, which statistically, you're prolly gonna do anyway. But hey, that's just my 2 cents.

Peace


--------------------
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OfflineMepher
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Cubenisseur] * 1
    #5868148 - 07/17/06 02:20 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

There is no good vermiciulite substitute, if you want to grow shrooms via a PFesque method:

1. There is nothing wrong with verm. - the only problem it ever had was a PR problem relating to a verm. mine that was contaminated with asbestos. The verm. had nothing to do with the problem, really.

2. Vermiculite is cheap and widely available. If you can't find it at Lowe's or Home Depot locally, or any of the many smaller shops you're bound to find, you can EASILY find it for cheap on the internet. Even eBay sellers sell it for pretty darned cheap!

3. Pebbles will not fold moisture. If you think they are even a remotely viable alternative, you need to read the FAQs.

4. Have you ever seen wet popped popcorn? Yeah, it is light and airy when dry, but it becomes a dense, sloppy mess immediately when wet. Plus it degrades VERY quickly, especially if heated. And it would be a magnet for contams.

5. Ever seen wet cardboard? A heavy, sloppy mess as well. I'd guess it is no better than simply over-watering your substrate. You want something maintains its volume once wet and releases water slowly. Cardboard will not fit that bill.

6. Cotton, as with the other potential subs mentioned, will compact and release water more quickly than desired. It is also organic and will degrade too quickly, I'd guess.

Read the FAQs. There is NOTHING wrong with verm, and you'd be VERY hard-pressed to find a viable substitute for it in the teks that call for it. The Shroomery contains enough knowledge that if there were a commonly available substitute for verm, even an inferior but usable one, we'd all know about it. Either go bulk or order some vermiculite online.

Someone close the thread now, please? :wink:


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: ComfortablyStond] * 1
    #5868165 - 07/17/06 02:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

No, please do not close this thread, don't shut me out like that. I didn't think pebbles would work, roadkill or someone like that suggested it (someone with a lot of posts) Cardboard when wet retains its shape and it absorbs a lot of water, I have it in a jar with BRF now, I'm just waiting on spores.

How would everyone know about a working substitute if you have THAT attitude, that they would know about it without even trying anything new.

You would have made a terrible assistant to Thomas Edison as he was trying to find the fiber to use in the light bulb.

"Edison, that is your 30th try, would you just GIVE UP! The candle is just fine, and I think you're doing this out of paranoia that it will start a fire! If there was a different source of light, don't you think we would have found it by now? For god sakes its 1879!"


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


Edited by beatnicknick (07/17/06 02:47 AM)


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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5869763 - 07/17/06 04:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Dude, are you really comparing finding a substitute for verm to the invention of the light bulb? :rolleyes:

BTW, "The Innovator"? Is that in reference to your vision of a verm free world?


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InvisibleRoadkillM
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5869857 - 07/17/06 04:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

beatnicknick said:

No, please do not close this thread, don't shut me out like that.

I didn't think pebbles would work, roadkill or someone like that suggested it (someone with a lot of posts)

Cardboard when wet retains its shape and it absorbs a lot of water, I have it in a jar with BRF now, I'm just waiting on spores.

How would everyone know about a working substitute if you have THAT attitude, that they would know about it without even trying anything new.







no worries about closing your thread...so far.
as long as this doesn't turn into a flamefest...have at it!~


and no...I didn't suggest using pebbles...
so leave my name out of that crap!~
lolzz
(I think it was RR)

I think that maybe cardboard could be used as long as it isn't soaking wet...
by just dampening it...
and finding the right moisture content and it might work!~
:smile:

I know that Coco Coir has been used as a Verm alternative with PF jars.
But the cost of Coco Coir is sorta spendy...
and you would have to find the right moisture content to use it too.

there is nothing wrong with trying to find new alternatives for anything...
but I really don't think your going to find something easier to work with than Verm.

good luck!~



tc


--------------------
Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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InvisibleOmnicracker
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Roadkill]
    #5870153 - 07/17/06 05:50 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Roadkill said:
there is nothing wrong with trying to find new alternatives for anything...





Exactly, TRYING.  Have some goddamn Gumption. go search out something that will work, test it, and tell us the results. 

YOU would be a terrible Thomas Edison, i dont think he spent too much time asking others if his ideas were 'good'.  He just did it, again and again, until he proved everyone wrong.  so history says...
really he was a manipulative little bitch that flexed his money and influence at the time to steal other peoples ideas and squash amazing inventors such as Tesla. 
:wink:


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Omnicracker]
    #5870347 - 07/17/06 06:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> YOU would be a terrible Thomas Edison, i dont think he spent too much time asking others if his ideas were 'good'.

I'm sure he checked into the research that had already been done and asked around to see what other people had tried.

IIRC he didn't just pull the idea of what to use out of his ass, he was inspired by anothers research on the substance that he ended up using.


-FF


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InvisibleOmnicracker
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: fastfred]
    #5870847 - 07/17/06 08:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i like to make things up, sorry. but the part about edison sucking is all true.

point being that i wish more people would just DO, instead of talking passionatly until they lose interest. ill show myself out...


--------------------




xxx..Learn Something..xxx


Edited by Omnicracker (07/17/06 08:08 PM)


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Omnicracker]
    #5870917 - 07/17/06 08:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

If you really want a good project for your 'vermiculite replacement', please, for god's sake, figure out the ratio of water crystals to brf. I have a jar of water crystals just sitting in my shed waiting for someone else to come up with the ratios. I tried myself a couple times a while back, and haven't had time to perfect. That would be a great thing for you to do! If you found that out, I wouldn't have to waste a pound of super absorbent, time releasing, nutrient rich polymer crystals!

So yeah, do that, THEN I'll give you 5 shrooms and a blowjob.


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Offlinesplifner180
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: fastfred]
    #5871003 - 07/17/06 08:39 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I would use verm if it was available to me but it isn't. As a substitute I've been using Schultz All-Purpose Soil Conditioner.



A number of people have told me that it shouldn't (and won't) work well but I've had nothing but good luck. I cut my hpoo with it (1:3, Schultz:hpoo IIRC). It also makes up 50% of my casing layer, the other half being coir. I've tried using 100% Schultz for a casing layer and it worked but not nearly as well as the 50/50.

splif


--------------------
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Build a Do-It-Yourself Magnetic Stirrer in thirty minutes with no money.


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InvisibleRoadkillM
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5871011 - 07/17/06 08:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

liamtheloser said:

So yeah, do that, THEN I'll give you 5 shrooms and a blowjob.





so thats what I got to do...
to get a blow job and 5 shrooms around here?

damn this is a tuff crowd!~

:grin:


--------------------
Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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OfflineNo_Life_G33k
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Roadkill]
    #5877089 - 07/19/06 09:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You're scared of vermiculite, but you use ALUMINUM????
Don't you wonder why the aluminum has holes in it when the casing is done???

BTW - read the warning on flouride toothpaste sometime. <shocked>

I support experimentation, I just think you efforts would be better spent on a different project.

find a way to replace bleach with peroxide.


--------------------
Hot Water Pasteuriztion - A How To Pictorial
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4527808/an/0/page/0

Make your own shroom chocolates
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4500682/an/0/page/5

guide with pix.


Make Your Own Magnetic Stirrer! How-To Tek w/ pix
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5865949/an/0/page/3


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: No_Life_G33k] * 2
    #5877415 - 07/19/06 11:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Finding a vermiculite replacement should be a high priority for those who do pf type cakes. It's a fact of life that verm is getting harder and harder to find, so let's cut the bullshit about some mine in Montana. In my area, the nurseries, lowes, and home depot do NOT carry it in stock and they will NOT order it when asked. Those who would flame people for looking for a replacement remind me of those would wait until they're already starving to look for food. . .Evolution will soon enough remove them from the gene pool.
RR


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InvisibleRoadkillM
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5877520 - 07/19/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

Finding a vermiculite replacement should be a high priority for those who do pf type cakes.  It's a fact of life that verm is getting harder and harder to find, so let's cut the bullshit about some mine in Montana.  In my area, the nurseries, lowes, and home depot do NOT carry it in stock and they will NOT order it when asked. 

Those who would flame people for looking for a replacement remind me of those would wait until they're already starving to look for food...
Evolution will soon enough remove them from the gene pool.


RR





lolzz bro!~

that last part just about made me spit my coke out all over the place!~

:grin:


--------------------
Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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Offlinesplifner180
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Roadkill]
    #5878032 - 07/19/06 02:27 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

RogerRabbit writes:
"Finding a vermiculite replacement should be a high priority for those who do pf type cakes. It's a fact of life that verm is getting harder and harder to find, so let's cut the bullshit about some mine in Montana. In my area, the nurseries, lowes, and home depot do NOT carry it in stock and they will NOT order it when asked. Those who would flame people for looking for a replacement remind me of those would wait until they're already starving to look for food. . .Evolution will soon enough remove them from the gene pool."

I feel dirty even using this word but it fits; pwned.

splif


--------------------
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Build a Do-It-Yourself Magnetic Stirrer in thirty minutes with no money.


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OfflineYamidude
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: splifner180]
    #5878065 - 07/19/06 02:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

RR you make a valid point.

As soon as i can no longer find 4,657 results on Froogle i will take the hunt for a substitue much more serious.. :grin:

I dont even have a need for it any longer anyways.  Grains oWn PF.


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InvisibleRoadkillM
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Yamidude]
    #5878131 - 07/19/06 02:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Yamidude said:

I dont even have a need for it any longer anyways.  Grains oWn PF.




what are you gonna use for a casing then?

:shrug:


--------------------
Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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OfflineYamidude
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Roadkill]
    #5878138 - 07/19/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Roadkill said:
Quote:

Yamidude said:

I dont even have a need for it any longer anyways.  Grains oWn PF.




what are you gonna use for a casing then?

:shrug:


oh yeahhhhh, durrrrrrrrrrr :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

Well i have two huge ass bags in my grow room right now that I can't see running out of any time in the next 2 or 3 years..


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Roadkill]
    #5878239 - 07/19/06 03:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Roadkill said:
what are you gonna use for a casing then?

:shrug:




i'm still using this


i posted about it a while back and got a nice collection of nay-sayers telling me it would contam.  im on my 6th case with it now that's about to pin.  fantastic pinsets every time.  3 contaminate free flushes, every time (with the 5th case of the stuff going for flush #4 right now).  it contains no verm.  its cheap.  its really easy to find.  i don't have to buffer it.  i don't intend on ever using anything besides it ever again.  :2cents:  others' mileage may vary but i got myself a fantastic performing, inexpensive, 0 preparation casing mix and im not looking back.  sound familiar?  a bunch of naysayers theorizing about something they haven't tried and shooting an idea down point blank?  :smile:

starting to feel the same with coir vs. poo... i can get ahold of coir cheaper and easier than poo (again others' situations may vary), it performs, its always consistent, and less effort.

wbs spawned to coir, cased with miracle gro moisture control.  not a spec of verm there!

but not to get too far off topic, ill reiterate what i said a few pages back, kudos to anyone who finds a verm substitute for cakes, and i think its a worthy cause for experimentation, and judging from posts of people having difficulty finding it and/or wanting something else, i think there will be many an appreciative pf-teker!


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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: creamcorn]
    #5878960 - 07/19/06 07:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Got pics?


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5879027 - 07/19/06 08:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

sure

closeup of a pinset on a case:


another small case:
--->

a current smallish case (8"x8", 2.5" deep), 4 days in FC, pins coming soon:


all miracle gro baby!


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: creamcorn]
    #5879091 - 07/19/06 08:40 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, and CC, someone has been using that same potting soil in their PF cakes instead of vermiculite too... It colonizes a lot slower, but I'm sure if someone were to try to find the right moisture content it would work a lot bettttteeerrrrr...

and boy did I get pwned! rogerrabbit just ate my pwnsauce and spit it right back in my face. I better get my text book out, because I just got schooled.

Anyways, there's another one you can add to your list of possible verm subs... moisture control potting mix (or coir). It works when mixed with brf, but I haven't been able to get a good ratio (and I haven't played around with it too much just has some extra jars and extra room in the pc).


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5879128 - 07/19/06 08:52 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

well i use it as a verm substitute in casings.  its 60% peat with the rest being a mix of: "forest compost", coir, and some perlite (the perlite isn't much, you can count the bits of perlite on my casing surface with one hand), as well as a "wetting agent" whatever in the hell that is, and .21-.07-.14 fertilizer.  sooo... the jurys' out on the fertilizer.  doubtful it helps (although we know nitrogen, and phosphates, are good things for mushrooms, this isn't an organic source of them), doubtful it hurts, certainly hasn't encouraged contams on a casing layer like everyone was so certain it would... and thats a pretty low concentration of fertilizer.  i'm not a plant guy by any means but i think the numbers are usually whole numbers there, not less than 1.

buuut... the stuff might just work in a cake.  i might just try and see if i can contribute something useful to this thread. :smile:

P.S. I just looked up what a wetting agent was, and found  this  explanation, which sounds like a pretty desirable quality to me. :thumbup:


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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: creamcorn]
    #5879228 - 07/19/06 09:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Looks great.


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OfflineEFresh
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #6122894 - 10/01/06 10:12 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Has anyone tried substituting verm for hydrton(expanded clay pebbles), i was planning to try that by filling the jar up with them then adding powdered composted cow manure , brown rice, water, and shaking it up?


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OfflineViper
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: EFresh]
    #6802831 - 04/18/07 03:49 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

You guys! You guys! Ya gotta try this! I used Aerated Autoclaved Concrete instead of vermiculite and it WORKS! AAC holds a lot of water! It can be found everywhere! I bet the walls of your house are made out of it, too! Just replace it in PF tech.


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Offlineboneynerd
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Re: Poll- Best Vermiculite Substitute [Re: Viper]
    #6821642 - 04/23/07 01:34 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Hello I am new to the forum, I read all the shroom info I could find and now am growing some PESA strain mycelium.

My method:
Vermiculite Sub: Schultz All-Purpose Soil Conditioner (Wilco/Fred Meyer) $5.99
Organic Brown Rice Flour (Fred Meyer by Organic foods/grains) $2
Tap Water $free
Widemouth Canning Jars (Fred Meyer) $9 (12pack)

My forumula for jars:
1/4 Cup Brown Rice Flour
1/3-1/4cup Water (start with 1/3 but a little water makes a BIG difference)
2/3 Cup Schultz Soil Conditioner

I put Schultz Conditioner in first, add water, then flour and stir till its moist but not sludgy.. you want the jars to have air in them not just be a big mess of sludge. Follow basic PFtek steps cause thats what I did.

I did 12 jars, i labeled them in the groups I pressure cooked (12psi cooker)

No contams

Group A is showing growth now and is going quick! (2days and its 1/3 mycelium)

Other then that, I recommend being sure that the jars are above water in the cooker, water got into some jars and threw them off balance and so I made a big pile of cakes and nocced it up to see what it does for fun lol.

Peace.

-bdiz


--------------------
"Your mama's grow was so contaminated, the shroomery got trich." :headbanger:
-SpitballJediS

"your a female, no one woulda cared you were naked,hell probably made someone's day, but I pull my balls out on a bus and im the bad guy.."
-Bishlap


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