Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Redstorm]
    #5865198 - 07/16/06 11:48 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:


Far better to simply have a union and the power to improve working conditions than having to go from slave labour conditions to slave labour conditions tho. People learned that a hundred years ago.




There are labor laws and minimum wage laws that make sure no one does slave labor. Also, employment in the United States is at-will and one can quit whenever they like if the pay or labor environment is not to their likings.




Obviously the labor laws and minimum wage arn't enough for the workers at walmart. Otherwise they wouldn't want unions.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5865210 - 07/16/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You live with it or go find another job?

Why not simply form a union and make sure you're paid a decent wage and provided decent working conditions? It's not like Walmart can't afford it. If they expect you to do the job they should expect to pay decent money.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 6 months, 28 days
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5865213 - 07/16/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You got stats showing that a large portion of the people at Wal-Mart want unions? There's always going to be a small group of people who believe that the minimum wage isn't enough for them. Perhaps they should take a look at the jobs they are doing and be happy for what they are getting paid for unskilled labor.

Rgardless, I don't think Wal-Mart pays minimum wage anyways.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Redstorm]
    #5865297 - 07/16/06 12:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You live with it or go find another job?

It's gonna be hard to find reliable stats of how many walmart workers want unions when walmart either fire them or close the store when the workers say they want unions.

Perhaps they should take a look at the jobs they are doing and be happy for what they are getting paid for unskilled labor.


Or maybe they should look at walmart profits and realise they played a massive part in earning that money and never saw dime one of it.

Incidentally going back to your idea that it can be all done through labor laws, what teeth do labor laws actually have? Do Walmart really give a shit if they get fined a few thousand dollars for breaking labor laws?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Redstorm]
    #5865301 - 07/16/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
You got stats showing that a large portion of the people at Wal-Mart want unions? There's always going to be a small group of people who believe that the minimum wage isn't enough for them. Perhaps they should take a look at the jobs they are doing and be happy for what they are getting paid for unskilled labor.

Rgardless, I don't think Wal-Mart pays minimum wage anyways.



In the case of the friend I mentioned, his problem wasn't wages. It was the way they totally fucked with his hours and made him work unpaid overtime. There's more than one way that an employer can fuck its employees.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5865570 - 07/16/06 01:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Unions are the bastions of the mediocre.

Why work hard when the schmo next to you doesn't?
Why do your best and try to not make mistakes when your job is safe unless you piss on the shoes of your union rep?

Unions may have had their day, now they protect the pathetic.

As an example, crappy teachers.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5866057 - 07/16/06 04:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Obviously the labor laws and minimum wage arn't enough for the workers at walmart. Otherwise they wouldn't want unions.




Another unsubstantiated assertion. Please provide sources for this statement.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5866088 - 07/16/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Why not simply form a union and make sure you're paid a decent wage and provided decent working conditions? It's not like Walmart can't afford it. If they expect you to do the job they should expect to pay decent money.




Why take the additional risks that come with a union, and the possibillity that the company will not be able to succeed as another set of management has to be dealt with? $8 an hour is decent money for unskilled labor, a considerable amount more than the minimum requirement of the federal government.

Labor unions make sense when the trade is one that requires specific training and a more hazardous work environment, like working with steel or something, or in dealing with a structure like the federal government whose does not have to concern itself with being competitive. These are the jobs that are still unionized, and they make up less than 10% of the total jobs in the country.

Yet you don't see these groups lobbying the government to increase the set minimum wage, perhaps because these groups do not stand to benefit from that - only the workers themselves do. :shocked:

Why are they not lobbying for Mc Donald's to unionize its workers? Mc Donald's pays even less, and the typical worker at Mc Donald's is probably worse off, as far as providing for a family is concerned. Could it be that perhaps the unions that seek to change Wal*Mart are simply interested in the riches that they themselves will accumulate? Hhhm.... :lol:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5866189 - 07/16/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
It's gonna be hard to find reliable stats of how many walmart workers want unions when walmart either fire them or close the store when the workers say they want unions.




Two stores in Canada have voted in a union. Wal*Mart closed one, due to the fact that negotiations could not be settled. Apparently the store was not that successful to start with. So much for the power of a union, eh? :rolleyes:

With the second one, from what I understand, the union was voted in automatically by labor law when a foolish manager interfered in the process of the store voting on the union (agansit policy). The associates later voted the union out. This is simply from recollection, so it might not be entirely accurate.

The atmosphere in Canada regarding unions is distinctly different; I believe that double the amount of jobs are unionized in Canada, with Canadian labor law more biased towards unions. Apparently the job market is weaker in Canada, as well. :shocked:

As far as firing associates who are pro-labor union, I sincerely doubt it, as such would be a violation of labor law, which is exactly the type of behavior that would make it easier for a labor union to work its way in (by court order)- which, as you have proclaimed, Wal*Mart doesn't want.

Quote:


Or maybe they should look at walmart profits and realise they played a massive part in earning that money and never saw dime one of it.




Or they should realize that they agreed to work in exchange for the payment offered. That's how it works, someone in an entry-level position isn't entitled the world simply because the company they work for is successful and makes profit. If they wish to obtain a bigger percentage of that profit, then perhaps they should play an increased role in the company.

Quote:


Incidentally going back to your idea that it can be all done through labor laws, what teeth do labor laws actually have? Do Walmart really give a shit if they get fined a few thousand dollars for breaking labor laws? 




Violation of labor law (threatening to close the store) was directly responsible for the court order that effectively certified a union in the Canadian store. Wal*Mart clearly is not interested in working with a union, and violating labor law makes it more likely that they will have to do so. It also creates undesireable publicity, which, in turn, makes it more likely that a union could get voted in elsewhere.

I've witnessed someone getting fired before for working off the clock and not taking breaks. We've recently completely restructured the hiring process in order to ensure that no discrimination occurs, and to document that we have not discriminated agansit anyone. Wal*Mart specifically takes steps so that bad situations do not arise that will give unions a foot in the door, and it is not surprising that, considering the sheer amount of stores and people involved, there have been situations in which someone fucks up (threatening to close a store if the union gets voted in, for example). People make mistakes, shit like that happens.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Silversoul]
    #5866295 - 07/16/06 05:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
In the case of the friend I mentioned, his problem wasn't wages.  It was the way they totally fucked with his hours and made him work unpaid overtime.  There's more than one way that an employer can fuck its employees.




First off, when someone is hired, they fill out a form that specifies the days and hours that they are able to work. If they decide to hire someone, they can't fuck with that scheduling, as far as putting them on for hours that they have specified they are not able to work. Within the time and days that they have specified they can work, they are, of course, free to schedule the person as they wish. If you specify open availability, then expect to have one's hours flexed around a bit. :shrug:

I also call bullshit on the unpaid overtime allegation. :lol: Those name badges are used to punch in and out from a time clock, and the personnel office has no capability of controlling what gets paid as overtime and what does not. Checks are cut from Bentonville, and if you are in the system for more than 40 hours in one week, then any time beyond that is paid as time and a half. Holiday pay is double, and there is an extra dollar an hour Sunday premium.

If he is alleging that he specifically worked more than 40 hours a week and the corporate office simply deleted hours, that's serious, and he could have easily verified the amount of time he worked and the amount of time he was paid for (surveillance recordings, I've got a hit and run charge for bumping into someone's car in the parking lot and taking off :lol:).

Its much more likely that he simply might have worked an extra half an hour or an hour over eight hours one day. That's not overtime if you kill the time later on in the week, it cannot be held agansit you if you only work your scheduled time each day, but doing so is a great way towards exceeding expectations, which means more money. :grin: Nothing wrong with being engaged. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5866769 - 07/16/06 06:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You do know that Wal-Mart got sued not too long ago over exactly the kind of abuses my friend was talking about, right?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
xBannedx
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/25/06
Posts: 1,410
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Vvellum]
    #5866775 - 07/16/06 06:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
do you really think it is so unusual for people to work at dead-end jobs and to hate their jobs? sometimes people have to work crap jobs to make ends meet - it's quite common, actually.





I can't see myself working at a job that I "hated" for "years". Something is drastically wrong if that happens.


--------------------
Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
xBannedx
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/25/06
Posts: 1,410
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5866783 - 07/16/06 06:53 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
You live with it or go find another job?

Why not simply form a union and make sure you're paid a decent wage and provided decent working conditions? It's not like Walmart can't afford it. If they expect you to do the job they should expect to pay decent money.




If the majority of the people that work at Walmart want to fund a "company" (how I see "unions") and get better pay, they should just all unite their funds and open "UnionMart", prices could be a few thousand bucks for a gallon of milk and every UnionMart employee would drive a Bentley. Until that happens, they should just shut the fuck up and work.


--------------------
Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Silversoul]
    #5866887 - 07/16/06 07:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
You do know that Wal-Mart got sued not too long ago over exactly the kind of abuses my friend was talking about, right?




Wal*Mart gets sued all the time. :smirk:

As I said, unless the corporate office is deleting hours from the system or you are working off the clock (which will pretty much get you fired), then its impossible to not get compensated for working overtime.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGabbaDjS
BTH
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,682
Loc: By The Lake
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #5867177 - 07/16/06 08:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Off the time work happens in union shops much more than in non union.

Non union shops tend to have more help around because the company can pay two people for the price of one union person..

I put in about three hours a week off the clock.  It keeps management off my back about excessive overtime and makes people think that Im getting more work done than I really am.  I do it mostly because I have to BUST ASS to get things finished on time.  Sometimes Id rather work slower and stay an hour of my own time than work like a mexican on meth.

I have NEVER been asked to work off the clock by anyone, ever. 

Quote:


Unions are the bastions of the mediocre.

Why work hard when the schmo next to you doesn't?
Why do your best and try to not make mistakes when your job is safe unless you piss on the shoes of your union rep?

Unions may have had their day, now they protect the pathetic.

As an example, crappy teachers.




Ahmen :thumbup:  This is only half true..  It ONLY holds true if management allows this sort of thing to happen.  While people are protected by seniority theirs lots that a company can do to fuck with that person if they dont like the way they perform..

Mostly its those who are old and have put in 20 or more years who get the benefit of being lazy and not having to do much..  I feel that they deserve it because in order to get to that place they did have to put up with all the company bull shit for two decades and at some point they were probably varry good workers..  Anyone who is new or has less than 15 years though or is under 50 has still got to earn that right to be a union protected slackey.

This is a BIG problem we face in the meat business.  Many of the butchers are pushing 60 and cant do shit.  We all know that for 30 or more years they were kings of the trade but now us younger guys have to pick up their slack.  My boss retired not long ago after 50 years in the business and 37 years in my company.  While he didnt do much work every day, nobody ever once thought of him as a pathetic schmo.


--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5867285 - 07/16/06 08:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The only thing that is really guaranteed is that the union will benefit regardless. Lots and lots of money.




...yes, funding for the union to perform as needed.

Quote:


Talk to the suppliers about that one :lol:




What is so funny about sweatshops? So, even if a retail giant chooses to purchase from sweatshops, then the retail giant has no responsibility in that situation? the fault lies entirely on the owners of the sweatshop? Give me a break - if the owners did not have an incentive from the retail giant, they would not operate as they do.

Quote:

Exactly, a union will serve as a detriment for the company to take care of itself, because there will be an organization instilled that is not the company, influencing and obstructing the decisions it makes.




You seem to be missing the point of a union and I dont think you have much experience in the matter, quite frankly. A union does not usurp a companies responsibilities, it makes sure that a company adheres to the employees needs as well as labor laws (we all know government is not going to help out much). The argument you present is not unlike saying the Department of Children and Family Services prevents parents from properly taking care of their children.

Quote:

It takes, what, 30% of the employees of a particular establishment to vote in a union? A store can't squash the formation of a union - attempting to do automatically results in the formation of a union, as it is a violation of labor laws. The company can only prevent circumstances that would bring the possibillity of a formation of a union - it obviously does so, or we would have stores forming unions, eh?




the reason why unions are rare in retail is because such jobs are usually of a high turn-over rate. Individuals only work at these jobs for a much shorter time then they would, say, work on an assembly line or work as an electrician. Make sense now?

Quote:

There certainly is not any clear advantage to a union.




Are better wages, safer conditions, better benefits not clear advantages? You've obviously only been in the workforce for a short while, no?

Quote:

It depends on what exactly the sole individual is voicing, for one thing. If the voice clearly demonstrates that there is an issue that needs to be resolved, and that issue is reflective of reality, then it will be. Secondly, more than one individual can work together to address concerns. It happens, I've witnessed it happen, and it has worked. Wal*Mart clearly is not stupid, and is not going to allow circumstances that could result in a union to ferment, as it has its interests as a company - a union will obstruct their ability to perform. Thus, the associates are given avenues through which to address concerns.




...and all of these "recourses" are all predicated on the approval of Walmart superiors. What if there is something employees need that the brass of Walmart refuse to provide?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5867891 - 07/16/06 11:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

just wondering if you watched the film on Walmart that I posted the torrent for. what are your thoughts?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5868065 - 07/17/06 01:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

If the majority of the people that work at Walmart want to fund a "company" (how I see "unions")

You don't understand what a union is or does. A union represents it's members to improve working conditions and pay. It's not a retail outlet.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5868068 - 07/17/06 01:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Wal*Mart gets sued all the time.

So much for labor laws. This is why unions are needed.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 6 months, 28 days
Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5868613 - 07/17/06 08:56 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Just because Wal-Mart is sued doesn't mean that the suits brought are actually won by the plaintiff. Losing in a legal battle means you've done something wrong, not merely being sued.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* A couple of questions on the minimum wage
( 1 2 all )
Evolving 3,515 29 10/21/03 03:40 PM
by Evolving
* Kidnappers threaten to kill us reporter cubanB 1,144 4 02/05/02 05:38 PM
by Innvertigo
* Iran threatens to nuke Australia Ed1 527 0 08/12/04 04:42 PM
by Ed1
* China Threatens Death in SARS Battle I_Fart_Blue 704 5 05/17/03 02:18 PM
by nugsarenice
* DOE Threatens Not to Clean Radioactive Waste EchoVortex 428 1 04/08/04 01:41 PM
by phi1618
* Finally - Courts Rule For Guantanamo Bay Prisoners' Rights
( 1 2 3 all )
Swami 4,242 48 12/25/03 02:31 PM
by Anonymous
* Chechens as threat to established rules Zahid 922 10 09/06/04 10:52 AM
by Great_Satan
* Minimum Wage Revisited
( 1 2 all )
Evolving 4,354 33 04/15/04 12:49 PM
by Tao

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
6,753 topic views. 1 members, 3 guests and 11 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.029 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 15 queries.