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Offlinesplifner180
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Does Clay Sap Potency?
    #5852832 - 07/12/06 10:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I use Schult'z All-Purpose Soil Conditioner to cut both my hpoo substrate and my coir casing layer.



As near as I can tell this stuff is crushed expanded clay. Says it's a good replacement for verm, which I can't find anywhere, and that's why I use it in the first place.

I should also mention that I've been having good results with it. The friends I've shared my shrooms with have said the fruits were quite good, even much better than what they're used to buying.

But someone recently told me that clay leeches shroom potency. Can some of the more veteran growers chime in on this one?

tia - splif


--------------------
First Grow: Ecuador -> LC -> HPoo/Straw -> Monotub
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Offlinemikeownow
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: splifner180]
    #5852895 - 07/12/06 10:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I use straight poopy and my mushrooms are extreemely potent, the clay would only slow me down. I use horse pooh and case with jiffy mix.

Has your poopy done this? That is just 2-3 inches thick.


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InvisibleOmnicracker
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: mikeownow]
    #5853085 - 07/12/06 11:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i see a carebears pillow case....


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: Omnicracker]
    #5853128 - 07/12/06 11:08 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:rofl2:


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Offlinesplifner180
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: splifner180]
    #5853873 - 07/13/06 06:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I've tried straight poo and it was just too dense. The clay loosens it up. Fantastic consistency.

So any gurus know if clay will leech potency?

tia - splif


--------------------
First Grow: Ecuador -> LC -> HPoo/Straw -> Monotub
Build a Do-It-Yourself Magnetic Stirrer in thirty minutes with no money.


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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: fastfred]
    #5853879 - 07/13/06 07:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
:rofl2:



LOLZ-

Wait....  :confused:


Edited by Cubenisseur (07/13/06 08:01 AM)


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5853900 - 07/13/06 07:31 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

it doesn't make sense that it would do anything to potency... i cant even begin to think how it possibly could


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InvisibleinskiM
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: splifner180]
    #5853929 - 07/13/06 08:13 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Hi splifner180!
Here in New Zealand we have a species called Psilocybe aucklandii which only grows in a few locations in the Auckland area, I have been lucky and was able to photograph and collect specimens.
These fruit directly of a grey coloured clay covered with a thin layer of pine needles!
These mushrooms are very potent :eek:


Clay is alkaline I think, not sure how ph affects the growth?
People add calcium carbonate to their casing layer's to bring the ph level to about 7-8 which is slightly alkaline.
Don't know if this helps, can anyone add to this or correct me?
inski.


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Invisibledecepticon
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: inski]
    #5853980 - 07/13/06 08:54 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

your poo should not need vermiculite.

do not pack down your poo in your tubs or trays.
put it in light and fluffy.

vermiculite is more like a sponge.
clay is more like perlite I would assume, like a porous rock.
this would help your soil drain, not hold moisture.

but I know nothing of that product.
If your poo is dry enough, it should be very fluffy.

you can always make your substrate a little dry for colonization.
it will even speed the process up a bit.
you can dunk or rehydrate after the first flush.

I guess I'm saying do not use that stuff, I only see it hurting.
I also have yet to ever find a good substitute for vermiculite.


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Offlinecoda
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: decepticon]
    #5854012 - 07/13/06 09:08 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Cutting poo with verm is ok, don't listen to people who say you don't need to do it. If that's what works for you then go for it, a lot of people like to put verm in their poo to aerate it some more, add a bit more bulk, and have it suck up some excess moisture if it presents itself.

A good thing to remember is that substrate does not dictate potency, so adding some clay or verm or whatever else to make your mixture fluffy will not affect the overall potency of your mushrooms.


--------------------
To get really high is to forget yourself. And to forget yourself is to see everything else. And to see everything else is to become an understanding molecule in evolution, a conscious tool of the universe. And I think every human being should be a conscious tool of the universe. . . .

-JG

i really am glad you came back to us instead of taking the other path. *hug*

-A_S (RIP your final words to me will never be forgotten)



Don't fuck with the laughing jesus.


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OfflineChrissss
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: coda]
    #5854112 - 07/13/06 10:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

coda said:
A good thing to remember is that substrate does not dictate potency,



hummm? I thought that is about the only thing that dictates potency.


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Invisibledecepticon
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: Chrissss]
    #5854128 - 07/13/06 10:05 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

coda has a point.

not saying not to add vermiculite,
just that you shouldn't really need it if the poo is prepared correctly.
I do add vermiculite to any substrate that is not
fluffy enough, so I cannot say to not do it.

however, I still do not see that stuff helping as verm would.
they could say perlite is a sub for vermiculite,
but not for our purposes at all.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: decepticon]
    #5854199 - 07/13/06 10:42 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> A good thing to remember is that substrate does not dictate potency,

Oh, really? So I assume that you're familiar with the work of Leung and Paul, and have thoroughly discredited their research. Funny though, I couldn't find the retraction of their article that Lloydia must have printed when your groundbreaking research discredited them. Do you have a link?

The relationship of carbon and nitrogen nutrition of Psilocybe baeocystis to the production of psilocybin and its analogs.
Lloydia. 1969 Mar;32(1):66-71.
Leung AY, Paul AG.


-FF


Edited by fastfred (07/13/06 11:28 AM)


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: fastfred]
    #5854362 - 07/13/06 11:23 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> Does Clay Sap Potency?

So I assume you're expecting someone to just pull some speculation out of their ass here...

I would speculate that the phosphate content of the clay in the casing layer will increase psilocybin content by 1.43%. However, psilocin content will be correspondingly decreased by 0.314%.

Hope this helps!


-FF


Edited by fastfred (07/13/06 11:29 AM)


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Offlinecoda
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: fastfred]
    #5854384 - 07/13/06 11:31 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
> A good thing to remember is that substrate does not dictate potency,

Oh, really? So I assume that you're familiar with the work of Leung and Paul, and have thoroughly discredited their research. Funny though, I couldn't find the retraction of their article that they must have printed when your groundbreaking research discredited them. Do you have a link?

The relationship of carbon and nitrogen nutrition of Psilocybe baeocystis to the production of psilocybin and its analogs.
Lloydia. 1969 Mar;32(1):66-71.
Leung AY, Paul AG.


-FF




*yawn* im so tired of this debate that every time someone brings it up i about fall asleep. Read the 80 bajillion threads dealing with potency, time and time again it's been noted that substrate does not dictate potency. The major differences between substrates is the amount they produce and the size of the mushrooms. Even that is debatable, you can produce as many mushrooms with a brf cake to casing as you could with hpoo as long as you used enough.

While it's SPECULATED that higher nitrite and nitrate compounds have an impact on potency it is not PROVEN. Lots of people agree that a brf trip is the same as an hpoo trip provided the mycellium came from the same culture. The biggest factor in potency is genetics, generate a crappy substrain that is impotent and you wont trip regardless of the substrate it is produced on.

If there was some sort of super substrate out there that gave you extremely potent mushrooms then we would all be using it right now. Another way to look at this issue is the cultivation of woodlovers. Wood is an extremely non nutritious substrate yet the musrhooms that thrive off of it are roughly 4-5x as potent as cubensis.

You do the rest of the thinking, im done with this argument.


--------------------
To get really high is to forget yourself. And to forget yourself is to see everything else. And to see everything else is to become an understanding molecule in evolution, a conscious tool of the universe. And I think every human being should be a conscious tool of the universe. . . .

-JG

i really am glad you came back to us instead of taking the other path. *hug*

-A_S (RIP your final words to me will never be forgotten)



Don't fuck with the laughing jesus.


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: coda]
    #5854401 - 07/13/06 11:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

well you yourself just used terms like speculated and "not proven" so how can you be so sure you're correct?

just because we don't understand HOW substrate effects potency exactly, and because we haven't come up with that ultimate goal of being able to tweak it in our favor, doesn't mean there's no effect.

i'd agree that genetics play a bigger role. but i'm also of the thinking if you have a substrate deficient in a particular way it can hinder potency. giving it all the perfect nutes in the world isn't going to do it, you're not going to automatically have the muscles of a body builder because you eat a lot of protien... but if you eat none, you can't build muscle. same sort of idea.

go grow on some white rice flour, eat yourself a big pile of totally bunk mushrooms, and tell us again substrate has no effect.

whats wrong with the debate anyway? you rather we throw up our hands and give up and say that's it we've reached the ultimate pinnacle of our science, and there's no room to discuss further improvement?

(p.s. sorry to threadjack, but if anything you should get the picture that the answer to your original question is "probably not, but none of us knows anyway")


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: creamcorn]
    #5854514 - 07/13/06 12:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting that you dismiss Leung and Paul's work as "speculation", while basing your conclusions on a bunch of poorly controlled and often contradictory bioassays reported in an online forum.

Not everyone has reached your same conclusion in their experiences, and yet you talk as if there is a consensus among the "80 bajillion threads". From what I've read there is quite a bit of disagreement among people's experiences and experiments. There are more than a few experienced people here who DO believe that there is a potency difference amongst substrates.

I would also point out that failure to find a difference using poor methods does not mean that there is no difference. Any difference found carries much more weight than a failure to find a difference. It is the basic difference between finding evidence and failing to find evidence. You need a much more rigorously controlled experiment to prove no difference than you need to find evidence of a difference.

I agree that genetics is certainly the biggest factor, but that does nothing to lessen the effect of substrate. Substrate is also a lot easier to control than genetics.

In the same breath as stating that genetics is the most important factor, you offer the woodlovers, and their non-nutritive substrate, as example that substrate doesn't matter. I'm sure you can see the facetiousness of that argument.

You also seem to think that we're already using the best substrates and that no further advances will come from that area. I think that's rather shortsighted. PF was of that opinion when he invented the PF tek, and I'm sure you'll agree that we've come a long way since then.

I also hate to see you give up your cherished pulpit of substrate non-discrimination. I only started the debate in such an arrogant, condescending, and sarcastic way in order to provoke a vigorous defence of your position.

I'm really not such an ass. I've got much respect for (almost) everyone here, and I hope you don't take it personally. I just like spirited debates.


-FF


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Offlinecoda
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: fastfred]
    #5854980 - 07/13/06 02:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

the point of my argument was that your substrate is not the final determinate in potency.  The data involved in these tests is way too subjective to come up with a 100% conclusive answer.  This is the whole reason why i dont have an argument that stands on concrete ground (eg why i note that the N compounds may have an impact on potency).  I guess what im trying to say is that as a cultivator one should focus on finding a substrain that produces the effects they want and go from there.  When using a MS innoc you're throwing darts at a board when it comes to potency, if you generate an impotent strain it wont matter what substrate you use.

Like i already mentioned this is an extremely heated debate, but i see the majority of people claim that the substrate they use holds no effect on the potency in the end.  I'm not the only one who holds this belief, there are a bunch of very experienced cultivators (whos opinions and research i respect very much) who believe what i do. 

Using your own example, just because stamets and jeung write that substrate has an affect on overall alkaloid levels, do we need to accept that blindly as "the truth"?  There are many other proffessional mycologists, and plenty of home brew ones with lots of knowledge who would glady refute those findings with some of their own.

I also fail to see what is facetious about my wood lovers argument.  I was pointing out that other species (ie different genetics) produce a stronger fruitbody on a less nutrtious substrate.  Again i used this as a way to strengthen my argument that genetics play more of a role then substrate does (IF substrate plays much of a role at all).

If you haven't already the lates potency debate came from 76 degree's, there was a very lively discussion coming from several old hands (some of which are mods here) and a link to a thread on myctopia.  If you haven't perused it maybe you should and read the opinions of a bunch of others as well.

BTW, no harm no foul, this is a messageboard afterall.  It'd be pretty boring if no discussions or arguments popped up from time to time.  As long as it doesn't boil down to name calling and shit talking i have no problem with people arguing against me with their own data and conclusions.  It does however get boring when it's the same debate week in and out, nu? :wink:


--------------------
To get really high is to forget yourself. And to forget yourself is to see everything else. And to see everything else is to become an understanding molecule in evolution, a conscious tool of the universe. And I think every human being should be a conscious tool of the universe. . . .

-JG

i really am glad you came back to us instead of taking the other path. *hug*

-A_S (RIP your final words to me will never be forgotten)



Don't fuck with the laughing jesus.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: coda]
    #5855075 - 07/13/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Agreed. Like many growers, at one time I set out in the search of the perfect substrate. The tryptamine/phan threads have been around for a long time, so of course I also included a few substrate materials high in those, such as seaweed. Then, N became the all important nutrient. I tried horse manure, chicken manure, cow manure, worm castings, etc., and the results were always the same. Extremely potent mushrooms came from good isolates whether it was on plain straw, or horse manure or compost. It didn't matter if coffee was added, or worm castings, anything. At the same time, performance from multispore inoculations were all over the scale every grow.

I've honestly never found a substrate additive that increases potency. If one is out there, it's yet to be found.
RR


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Offlinesplifner180
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Re: Does Clay Sap Potency? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5855647 - 07/13/06 06:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

creamcorn writes:
"it doesn't make sense that it would do anything to potency... i cant even begin to think how it possibly could "

I couldn't fathom the mechanics but then again the fact that mushrooms grow at all amazes me, so...

inski writes:
"These fruit directly of a grey coloured clay covered with a thin layer of pine needles! These mushrooms are very potent"

Ok, thanks for mentioning this. Definitely makes me feel better.

decepticon writes:
"your poo should not need vermiculite. do not pack down your poo in your tubs or trays. put it in light and fluffy."

I do but I still find it's too dense. If I dry it a bit more it isn't wet enough. The clay seems to allow me to get both the correct moisture and fluffyness (sp?).

coda writes:
"Cutting poo with verm is ok, don't listen to people who say you don't need to do it. If that's what works for you then go for it, a lot of people like to put verm in their poo to aerate it some more, add a bit more bulk, and have it suck up some excess moisture if it presents itself."

Exactly what I'm trying to do.

fastfred writes:
"Oh, really? So I assume that you're familiar with the work of Leung and Paul, and have thoroughly discredited their research. Funny though, I couldn't find the retraction of their article that Lloydia must have printed when your groundbreaking research discredited them. Do you have a link?"

Holy crap. Down boy! Down!

"So I assume you're expecting someone to just pull some speculation out of their ass here..."

No, I was hoping someone experienced had some experience with it. Like inski.

Thanks to those that chipped in. But STOP JACKING MY THREAD. =)

splif


--------------------
First Grow: Ecuador -> LC -> HPoo/Straw -> Monotub
Build a Do-It-Yourself Magnetic Stirrer in thirty minutes with no money.


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