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OfflineJCoke
dream observer
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Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
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Last seen: 9 years, 22 days
ancient bad trips?
    #5852431 - 07/12/06 09:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

did the aztecs and all the other cultures that traditionally used psychoactive substances for thousands of years ever have bad trips? I think there had to be few, or actual i'm sure there were alot over all, but for the most part, I suspect it's a more of a modern thing to have a bad trip.


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hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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OfflineLion
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Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
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Re: ancient bad trips? [Re: JCoke]
    #5852454 - 07/12/06 09:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

they probably recognized that bad trips aren't bad trips


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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisiblePsychoChipmunk
Small, Furry, Disturbed

Registered: 01/08/05
Posts: 389
Loc: A hole in your back yard
Re: ancient bad trips? [Re: Lion]
    #5853806 - 07/13/06 05:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well from the standpoint of one about to be sacrificed so that your blood could feed a god, that could be one hell of a bad trip (or not, I mean, if your blood is fit for a god to eat...) j/k

Back on topic, I concur somewhat with bug- I think that the term 'bad trip' could be more of a modern invention. If an Aztec was taking an entheogen is a spiritual/religious context, what we might classify as a bad trip, they might interpret as a profound, if terrifying message from the powers that be.

IMHO, the "bad trip" context may have come about as a result of people using psychodelics in a primarily recreational way.


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\m/


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Posts: 14,279
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Re: ancient bad trips? [Re: JCoke]
    #5854067 - 07/13/06 09:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I'd have to say that the heightening of the pagentry surrounding Aztec human sacrifices, using Ololiqui (Morning Glory seeds) was an ENORMOUS bad trip. Their worship of a solar-blood deity requiring hundreds of human beings to have their still-beating hearts cut out of their chests by a priest with an obsidian knife is one of the most markedly demonic bad trips I can think of!


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: ancient bad trips? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5855264 - 07/13/06 04:42 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

demonic... PFfffft.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
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Re: ancient bad trips? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5855737 - 07/13/06 07:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The Aztecs considered themselves the spiritual successor to the Toltecs, but they lacked true understanding of the people they tried to emulate...down to taking the Toltec myths and legends literally (which was their downfall....Cortez). The Toltecs and Mayans rejected human sacrifice, and it was not a feature common to Central American culture. The Aztec priests used it to maintain absolute control of their society. There is evidence that as the Aztecs moved their domination south and imposed their rule on the Mayans, the Mayans desanctified their alters and abandoned their cities in revolt of having the practice imposed on them. According to Mayan writings there were a few instances of human sacrifice that did occur in their classic period culture. In these instances the Shaman-Kings of their cities sacrificed themselves to the Gods voluntarily in times of great need.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflinePanoramix
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Registered: 11/26/03
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Re: ancient bad trips? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5855921 - 07/13/06 08:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"taking an entheogen is a spiritual/religious context, what we might classify as a bad trip, they might interpret as a profound, if terrifying message from the powers that be. IMHO, the "bad trip" context may have come about as a result of people using psychodelics in a primarily recreational way." -- PsychoChipmunk

Yeah, I think that's hitting the nail on the head. They weren't expecting something soft and fluffy and fun with hella-crazy visuals, they would have been looking to have a profound experience that would teach them about what it was they were inquiring about. They'd probably consider some weak trip where they just laughed their asses off and felt that warming glow to be a 'worse' trip than one where rivers of blood coagulated to form sixty foot tall versions their parents, who then went on a rampage and destroyed all that was healthy and vibrant and alive in the world. Maybe not, but you get the idea. If you percieve the messenger (in this instance we seem to be talking mostly about mushrooms) to be divine, how can the message not also be divine, irregardfull of its' content?


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/09/99
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Re: ancient bad trips? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5856273 - 07/13/06 10:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Self-sacrifice is the only ethical/moral sacrifice. Anything else just seems like murder. Even the Satanist LaVey said it was just cowardice to kill animals for sacrifice. Better to shed one's own blood. The higher notion of self-sacrifice does not have to be physical. The Gnostics understood the story of the crucifixion to be a 'cosmic crucifixion' of the ego (or, "self-importance" as Don Juan Matus would have it). The Gnostics thought the Christian 'martyrs' to be what we call masochists today, and I must concur. Though raised Jewish, choosing to die rather than eat meat that has been dedicated to some deity does not seem reasonable or noble to me from a Jewish or a Christian perspective.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: ancient bad trips? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5858358 - 07/14/06 03:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"The higher notion of self-sacrifice does not have to be physical. The Gnostics understood the story of the crucifixion to be a 'cosmic crucifixion' of the ego"

That is a interesting and logical interpretation. As always good stuff. My understanding of the scripture is increased.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineSchwammel
Auk

Registered: 12/10/05
Posts: 845
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: ancient bad trips? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5858379 - 07/14/06 03:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"The higher notion of self-sacrifice does not have to be physical. The Gnostics understood the story of the crucifixion to be a 'cosmic crucifixion' of the ego"

waht a bunch of dummies beleiving in something that doesn't make any sense


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: ancient bad trips? [Re: Schwammel]
    #5858605 - 07/14/06 04:29 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Makes sense to me. What part don't you understand?


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: ancient bad trips? [Re: Schwammel]
    #5859319 - 07/14/06 07:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Schwammel said:
waht a bunch of dummies beleiving in something that doesn't make any sense




Consider contributing something that makes any sense. :wink: At least try to keep the baiting in check. :rolleyes:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSchwammel
Auk

Registered: 12/10/05
Posts: 845
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: ancient bad trips? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5859433 - 07/14/06 07:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"Party Hats"


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: ancient bad trips? [Re: Schwammel]
    #5859668 - 07/14/06 08:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Makes sense to me and to the Gnostic Christians at the outset of Christianity. It makes sense to those who understand Jungian psychology in modernity (no, not maternity). It makes sense to classical scholars like G.R.S. Mead, Hans Jonas and Princeton scholar Elaine Pagels. Someone here needs to come up to speed. Remember, under these circumstances, 'Good words are like silver, but silence is pure gold.'


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