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Offline19741974
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fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom.
    #5850919 - 07/12/06 02:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Hello again. I'm asking this question because i haven't this method used here. i have some fruiting trays that ar 4


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Offline19741974
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: 19741974]
    #5851467 - 07/12/06 05:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

No wonder i didn't get any replies, my post got cut off. Anyways. i just what to thank all the peolple that helped me get this far. I am sorry, but i do find that posting helps me more than tring to find an answer to my specific setup. so i'll just ask one question at at time and hope for the best.

Can i, or is it better to have a layer of casing below the substraight layer? and can that be the same casing as the top layer? and will this help maintain a better RH in the chamber and casing layer from drying out? That's 1 question in three parts LOL. Thanx.


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Offline19741974
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: 19741974]
    #5851920 - 07/12/06 07:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

HUM?


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: 19741974]
    #5851933 - 07/12/06 07:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> Can i, or is it better to have a layer of casing below the substraight layer?

No.

> and can that be the same casing as the top layer?

N/A

> and will this help maintain a better RH in the chamber and casing layer from drying out?

???


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: 19741974]
    #5851938 - 07/12/06 07:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

no.

no.

put the casing layer on the top.
to keep it moist, mist it.

humidity depends upon your fruiting chamber.


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Offline19741974
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: monstermitch]
    #5852044 - 07/12/06 07:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

this is exactly why when someone get's tee'd off and say, read the tek's, i get get ticked off. read this link. called CASING 101, and it says put a layer of verm in first. who do i belive. I am not tring to be an ass. it's just a wake up call.
http://www.shroomery.org/index.php/par/23805. Thank you for the reply.


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Offlineghostofbmarley
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: monstermitch]
    #5852094 - 07/12/06 07:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think posts get cut off when you use a quotation mark for some reason. :shrug: That has been my experience thus far, and it looks likely in your case.

*That* is the only thing I can help with in this post -- sorry for the OT-ness


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: 19741974]
    #5852203 - 07/12/06 08:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

19741974 said:
this is exactly why when someone get's tee'd off and say, read the tek's, i get get ticked off. read this link. called CASING 101, and it says put a layer of verm in first. who do i belive. I am not tring to be an ass. it's just a wake up call.
http://www.shroomery.org/index.php/par/23805. Thank you for the reply.




We don't tell you that you don't need that bottom layer until "Casing 204".


Just imagine what stuff we're holding back until "Advanced Casing 343".


-FF


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: 19741974]
    #5852213 - 07/12/06 08:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

19741974 said:
this is exactly why when someone get's tee'd off and say, read the tek's, i get get ticked off. read this link. called CASING 101, and it says put a layer of verm in first. who do i belive. I am not tring to be an ass. it's just a wake up call.
http://www.shroomery.org/index.php/par/23805. Thank you for the reply.




Welcome to the shroomery, where many questions have more than one answer sometimes totally opposite eachother. :smile:  The tek isn't incorrect, if you follow it word for word you will get results.  The answers you got above are not incorrect either, they're pretty good advice in fact.  With that said...

This one is a bit of a matter of preference.  Those who use bottom casing layers believe it can provide an extra moisture resivoir for your substrate (and it certainly can).  You can inject water into the bottom layer later on, or drip water down around the edges where it will be absorbed into that layer, and hopefully then into the substrate as its needed.  It can provide some protection against overwatering, and can soak up mycelium metabolites that may be excreted by your substrate during the grow.   

On the other hand, if the bottom layer is too dry, it can have the opposite effect and draw moisture out of your substrate... a horrible thing.  It also creates stagnant air pockets where anarobic contaminants can thrive (such as bacteria.)  If the bottom layer is too wet, it can make the bottom of your substrate soggy.  A bottom casing layer can actually cause pins to develop on the bottom side of your casing.  You may not notice these, and they'll end up rotting, causing problems.  They also rob energy and resources from mushrooms that could be growing where they are supposed to, on the top.

The more common way is to skip that layer, because the cons pretty much outweigh the pros.  I have tried it both ways and never saw much of a difference.  The drying and contamination risk theories never proved to really be problems.  The theory that it provides extra moisture never proved to be beneficial easier.  So I don't use it, its one less thing to do and makes it simpler.

It certainly works both ways.  If you're not convinced either way, try it both ways and see for yourself.  I'm guessing you'll find the same as I did, that its just one extra thing to do that doesn't make much of a difference either way.

Got it? :smile:  Some of the people on the boards have more experience than some of the people who wrote the teks.  It doesn't mean either way is right or wrong, but some have found little changes in methods to work out.  Its great to reference the teks, but if somebody suggests trying it different, just ask for a clarification like that - because their suggestion might just be superior.  No need to get upset at the conflicting info. :smile:


Edited by creamcorn (07/12/06 08:29 PM)


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Offline19741974
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: creamcorn]
    #5852319 - 07/12/06 08:42 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not sure what fastfred means but thank you creamcorn. you answered my ? all the way. Now hears is another one. i am going to use a fish pump for air in my chamber 2 holes were made on each side about a half inch up from the bottom in the middle. on the inside is a small blue air stone with the tube sticking outside for the hose to connect to it. i'm not going to put perlite all over the bottom, just a baseball size amount covering each airstone on both sides. hopefully between the filter on the pump. the blue stone, and being covered by wet perlite, the contams should stay to minimum and at the bottom while getting air flow. on the opesite sides i will drill 3 holes on each side very close to the bottom where most of the Co2 sits. i'm hopeing that this will work. I guess if the RH gets to high i'll throw some dry perlight on the wet. and if the RH is too low, i can just add some more or spray the mounds on each side with some more water. Does this sound like it might all work? I do hope so. Thanx again.


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Invisiblemycogirl
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: 19741974]
    #5852373 - 07/12/06 08:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Throw some polyfil in the holes to prevent against contams. I would use perlite on the whole bottom layer of your fruiting chamber, and I would throw your bubblers in a glass of water and hydrogen peroxide if your humidity gets too low. More humidity is a better problem than not enough.


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Offline19741974
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: mycogirl]
    #5852415 - 07/12/06 08:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mycogirl said:
Throw some polyfil in the holes to prevent against contams. I would use perlite on the whole bottom layer of your fruiting chamber, and I would throw your bubblers in a glass of water and hydrogen peroxide if your humidity gets too low. More humidity is a better problem than not enough.




by better problem, do mean bigger problem? I was also told probably 8 out of 10 times that when fruiting a WBS with casing it does need any perlight at all. Actually just the fruit trays were good enough. so i figured i would go half way to the point where i can add or substract if nessesary. Can i get polyfill like at lowes or somthing like that? Thanx.


Edited by 19741974 (07/12/06 09:00 PM)


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Offline19741974
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: 19741974]
    #5852453 - 07/12/06 09:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I was just in my kitchen and i had an idea. The reason why we pressure cook is to get temp up above boiling point right? This may be a dumb question but couldn't you put A huge mass of WBS in an oven bag a bake it at the same temp the cooker gets for the same time and come up with the same results? easier and with more WBS to use.


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: 19741974]
    #5852462 - 07/12/06 09:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

the moisture would evaporate... another reason we use pressure cookers... it's a sealed environment full of water


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: 19741974]
    #5852489 - 07/12/06 09:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

haha here we go again.

your casing (assuming its done correctly) does provide optimal humidity for pin formation.  the goal of additional humdity in the air of your FC at this point is to simply keep the casing from drying out.  this is why less ambient humidity is needed with a casing.  overdoing the humidity can hinder pin development, and you might not get totally optimal pinsets, because there needs to be some evaporation and transpiration taking place as well... so its a balance.  but like mentioned, its not a HUGE problem, its just not optimal... optimal for pinning is 95-100% RH, but again your casing itself provides a "microclimate" and you should have this much humidity at the surface when your casing layer is properly hydrated, even if the ambient air isn't quite so high... ambient air humidity at around 90% is good.

during fruiting, once the pins begin to bolt, moisture is being pumped into them very rapidly... that's how a mushroom grows, its inflated with water and strengthened as it goes.  at this point the humidity in the air is keeping the mushroom from losing moisture, so that it can make rapid gains.  once you take a fresh picked mushroom out of your FC and expose it to normal "comfortable" air in your home, you'll see how quickly it turns rubbery and starts to dry up.  you're counteracting that with the elevated humidity in your FC.  for cropping you can get away with as low as 85%.

to balance everything out you need to think surface area and volume of your FC.  if your casing tray covers the majority of the floor of your FC, and the FC itself is not extrordinarily large, the casing itself will humidify the air.  look into monotubs/double tubs for example, where 100% of the floor of the FC is the substrate/casing.  if you have a small tray or two that only covers say half the floor, or you have a really tall FC, you might need to suppliment it by surrounding it with some perlite.  minor swings in the humidity isn't going to be a deal breaker, we're talking ideal here... so if its not exactly right, its still going to work.  i don't think anybody can tell you exactly what you're going to need because of the surface area/volume variables, so might want to pick up a hygrometer so you can take measurements for yourself, at least at the beginning until you get a feel for it.

anyway... what i'm getting at is, your idea sounds like it will work fine. :smile:


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: 19741974]
    #5852508 - 07/12/06 09:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

19741974 said:
I was just in my kitchen and i had an idea. The reason why we pressure cook is to get temp up above boiling point right? This may be a dumb question but couldn't you put A huge mass of WBS in an oven bag a bake it at the same temp the cooker gets for the same time and come up with the same results? easier and with more WBS to use.




yeah, we want the temp at 250 to achieve sterilization. sterilization also requires moist heat, because dry heat will not penetrate your medium and kill contaminants in quite the same way. you can bake something moist in an oven at any temp you want, go ahead and crank that baby up to 500 degrees, but guess what, the moisture will only get to 210, thats where water boils and turns to steam. that moist heat isn't getting hot enough. putting it under pressure means the boiling point goes up, to 250.


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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5852511 - 07/12/06 09:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You can dry sterilize things in an oven. The problem is that it's a fire risk. You'll also end up burning stuff if you're not carefull.

It also takes longer and requires higher temps to sterilize things at normal pressure.


-FF


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Offline19741974
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: 19741974]
    #5852566 - 07/12/06 09:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I knew that would be dumb question. Thanx again creamcorn you got knack for this it sounds. My trays cover about 60% of the floor, so i will probably add a little more perlight.


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Offline19741974
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: 19741974]
    #5852673 - 07/12/06 09:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

O.k here's a crappy pic of what my settup will look like.


Of course i'm going to put black tape on the inside of the FC and on the outside of the fruiting trays plus some perlight and polyfill if i can find where to get some at a local store. What do you think?


Edited by 19741974 (07/12/06 09:46 PM)


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Offline19741974
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Re: fruiting trays with vented spacer at the bottom. [Re: 19741974]
    #5853076 - 07/12/06 10:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Nevermind on the polly fill. I found some in a stuffed animal. I soaked it in alcohol and anti bactirial saopfor a while, rinsed and dried in sone clean paper towel. Man once you actually see and touch the stuff, you just know it's good for keeping bacteria out. it's easy to work with too. I'm thinking positive, and hopefully ill have some pic's in a couple weeks to show.


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