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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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Catalysis said: Um, you do realize that Hezbollah is an active, recognized member of the Lebanese government, right? They hold several seats in parliament.
No, I was not aware of that. However, you make it seem as though there exists a uniform, conscious "state of Lebanon", but it certainly doesn't seem that way.
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http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Lebanon_Controlling_Hezbollah.html BEIRUT, Lebanon -- Israel has held Lebanese leaders responsible for Hezbollah's capture of two soldiers, but the government here says it has no real control over the guerrillas - and taking action to rein them in could tear the country apart.
Wracked by divisions over relations with Syria, the Western-backed government of Prime Minister Fuad Saniora has yet to muster the political will, or the courage, to disarm the guerrillas of the Shiite Hezbollah, allowing them to continue to operate with almost total autonomy in southern Lebanon.
Successive Lebanese governments have maintained that replacing the guerrillas by Lebanese army troops would be tantamount to offering Israel a free service - protecting its northern border from guerrilla attacks.
Many in Lebanon - particularly opponents of its ally Syria - resent Hezbollah's free hand and feel that the government should do more to assert its authority. However, the dangers of taking on the group over its arms and the state-within-state role it has assumed in southern Lebanon carries serious risks.
"The 'state of Lebanon' held responsible by Israel for yesterday's Hezbollah operation does not exist and may never exist in the foreseeable future," wrote Sarkis Naoum, political editor of the Beirut daily An-Nahar, in a column Thursday.
"How can such a state exist when the war-and-peace decision is not in its hands and its influence on the Lebanese who have it, that's if indeed they have it, is little or in fact nonexistent?"
Denouncing Hezbollah as a "group of terrorists," President Bush alluded to the weakness of the Lebanese government in comments made in Germany on Thursday. He said Israel had a right to defend itself, but also expressed worries the Israeli assault could cause the fall of Lebanon's anti-Syrian government.
"We're concerned about the fragile democracy in Lebanon," he said.
advertising The Syrian- and Iranian-backed Hezbollah is seen by Lebanon's 1.2 million Shiite Muslims, the largest single community among Lebanon's diverse 4 million people, as the fruition of a long and painful journey to empowerment, emerging from the fringes of a society long dominated by Christians and Sunni Muslims to become a power to be reckoned with in the last 30 years.
With the name Hezbollah, or party of God, almost synonymous now with Lebanese Shiites, any attempt to disarm the organization or undermine its leverage in the Shiite-dominated south and east of Lebanon could firmly place Lebanon on the road to a second civil war, with the Shiites sure to feel that others are seeking to send them back to the political wilderness.
Disarming Hezbollah, listed as a terrorist organization by the United States, was called for in a U.N. Security Council resolution adopted in 2004, but Lebanese authorities, perhaps with an eye on the consequences of any unilateral action, have not implemented it, trying instead to reach national consensus on the issue.
Hezbollah's charismatic leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, has presented Lebanese leaders with a blueprint for a strategic defense strategy. The document, of which very little is known, remains on the agenda of national reconciliation talks that have made little progress since they started in March.
Still, the government has sought to distance itself from Hezbollah's latest action, saying it did not know in advance of the cross-border raid and doesn't support it.
Anticipating the government's stance, Nasrallah served it a warning Wednesday. "No one at home should act in a way that encourages the enemy to escalate against Lebanon," he told a news conference, adding that Hezbollah had no intention to drag Lebanon or the entire region to war.
Nasrallah, a cleric, has in the past used strong language when touching on the question of disarmament, recently warning that anyone who attempts to unilaterally take away his guerrillas' arms would have his arm cut off and eyes gauged.
Founded in 1982 with Iranian help, Hezbollah has evolved from a secretive group linked to a series of suicide bombings targeting U.S. installations in Lebanon and the kidnapping of some 50 Westerners in the 1980s. It later became a national resistance movement, waging a war of attrition against Israeli forces occupying a southern Lebanon border strip. Faced with rising casualties, Israel withdrew its army in 2000, ending a 22-year military presence there.
The withdrawal crowned Hezbollah as a heroic organization seen by many Lebanese as a liberator that won back territory without negotiations or concessions. The group has since focused on charity work in the south and the eastern Bekaa Valley, operating schools, hospitals, dental clinics and rebuilding roads and houses destroyed in fighting in the south.
It continues to fight for a small, disputed border area, the Chebaa Farms, through sporadic attacks in the area. But its association with Syria, widely blamed in Lebanon for the assassination last year of former prime minister Rafik Harairi, has hurt its standing.
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I would be very interested in your explanation as to how a political party in a government can openly attack another country without that government being held responsible.
First off, it isn't a political party that is openly attacking another country, it is a terrorist organization that has a political party. 
For instance, imagine that the Confederate Army had shot cannons into Mexico, and Mexico threatens the United States, telling the United States government that it is responsible for the Confederacy's actions. Not an entirely equal situation, but there are pronounced similarities here.
The United States, George W. Bush, has referred to Lebanon's government as a "fragile democracy". I'm exactly sure how a fragile democracy can be held responsible for actions carried out by a force inhabiting the country that receives funding and arms from neighboring countries and has received support from an amount of its citizens.
Apparently, standing up agansit Hezbollah would mean a civil war in Lebanon. Hezbollah is supported by Iran and Syria... I wonder if we should hold Lebanon accountable for Hezbollah's actions and divide the country up between Israel, Syria, and Iran. 
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Even so, the argument that Israel should sit back and allow attacks to happen without retalition simply because terrorist organizations are only loosely affiliated with recognized governments (for obvious reasons) is a weak one at best.
I'm not sure where such an argument is taking place. I am proposing that, if Israel focused upon defendings its nation instead of actively seeking to expand it, it would not receive attacks, or it would be more capable of preventing such attacks from having any effect on its nation. George W. Bush proposes a missle defense system to protect the expansive United States, are you telling me that Israel is not capable of intercepting crude missles that terrorists are launching? It should be like smacking down flies with a fly swatter. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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Quote:
Founded in 1982 with Iranian help, Hezbollah has evolved from a secretive group linked to a series of suicide bombings targeting U.S. installations in Lebanon and the kidnapping of some 50 Westerners in the 1980s. It later became a national resistance movement, waging a war of attrition against Israeli forces occupying a southern Lebanon border strip. Faced with rising casualties, Israel withdrew its army in 2000, ending a 22-year military presence there.
That quote is from the article I just posted...
It seems to me that Israel has made Hezbollah into the force that it is right now, eh? It reminds me of Bill Hicks' bit about arming the armies of the world in order to fight them. Israel occupies another country, causing the formation of a national resistance movement, and then wonders why they have a group shooting missles at them. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!


Registered: 02/08/01
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Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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It's about time Isreal flexed it's muscles. This has been a long time coming.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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Um, I think Israel's flexing its muscles is what has brought this current circumstance, correct me if I am wrong (hey, I just might be, I'm no historian). 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
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Re: Israel [Re: Luddite]
#5855408 - 07/13/06 05:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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When all the the Islamic extremists have been exterminated, then there will be peace.
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!


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No I believe all of the homocide bombings, kidnappings, missles fired into civilian houses, car bombs, etc. had to do with it.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Exactly, such is the web of cause and effect in such a circumstance, just like Northern Ireland. Someone does this because they did that and they did that because someone did that...
I personally hold Israel accountable for rising above this, considering that they are an established nation with resources and influence. Perhaps if the Jews accepted the New Testament, they would not still be exchanging an eye for an eye, which is an accurate representation of the situation.
I'm sorry, but individuals living in povery aren't exactly the most aware and understanding people, and when you start destroying them and their land, they aren't going to care who was right - in doing so, you are simply creating more terrorists and furthering the terrorists cause.
Perhaps if Israel would stop reacting and start responding, true resolution could begin. Why does Israel not empower a struggling, fragile nation like Lebanon in order to give Lebanon what it needs to eliminate the terrorists that occupy it? Why does Israel not defend itself and prevent situations like this from erupting? I truly believe it is their responsibility to do so, for the benefit of themselves and everyone involved, instead of brazenly reacting with bombs and ploys to expand territory.
I don't know, perhaps that would make too much sense. One should not actively seek out war. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
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Quote:
Innvertigo said: It's about time Isreal flexed it's muscles. This has been a long time coming.
Yeah, judging by your sig, you payed for those muscles, so I would want to see them used too.
-------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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THE KRAT BARON
one-eyed willie
Registered: 07/08/03
Posts: 42,409
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: One should not actively seek out war. 
They were not actively seeking out war. Hezbollah "invaded" their country and captured two of their soldiers, not the other way around. Technically Hezbollah declared war on Israel in doing so. Iran has also stated they would like to whipe Israel off the map. The actions Israel is taking by hitting strategic Hezbollah locations is not unjustified. It's not like they are bombing on civilian homes.
How would you feel if somebody came into your home and took a family member hostage? Would you not be enraged? Would you not do everything in your power to retaliate against the captor's knowing they are probably going to kill your family members regardless? You can sit here behind your monitor saying anything you want but when the shit hits the fan it gets real and you have to make spur of the moment strategic decisions.
-------------------- m00nshine is currently vacationing in Maui. Rumor has it he got rolled by drunken natives and is currently prostituting himself in order to pay for airfare back to the mainland but he's having trouble juggling a hairon addiction. He won't be back for a long while.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
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Re: Israel [Re: Luddite]
#5855463 - 07/13/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Luddite said: When all the the Islamic extremists have been exterminated, then there will be peace.
This is about as useful as a Muslim saying there will only be peace when all the Jewish extremists are exterminated. There will be peace when the foundation of the conflict is finally resolved, not when a shit load of people have been killed. For every dead terrorist another Arab kid takes his place. Waging war until the doves come is like fucking in the name of chastity.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!


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I personally hold Israel accountable for rising above this, considering that they are an established nation with resources and influence. Perhaps if the Jews accepted the New Testament, they would not still be exchanging an eye for an eye, which is an accurate representation of the situation.
it's easy to say that they should rise above it when it's not you who is being blown up. This is where many Americans fall short with this logic.
I'm sorry, but individuals living in povery aren't exactly the most aware and understanding people, and when you start destroying them and their land, they aren't going to care who was right - in doing so, you are simply creating more terrorists and furthering the terrorists cause.
So in essence, you're saying that the Palestinians are idiots and they just don't know better? Interesting thought. Every human has the ability to know that it's wrong to go into a mall full of woman and children and blow them up. Terrorists exist for one major reason: Radical Islamics (which is becoming more main stream).
Perhaps if Israel would stop reacting and start responding, true resolution could begin.
hippy logic. They have been taking it on the chin for decades, I would love to wager that if they stopped going into Israel and bombing innocent people then the war would stop. It's very simple.
Why does Israel not empower a struggling, fragile nation like Lebanon in order to give Lebanon what it needs to eliminate the terrorists that occupy it?
well one, Lebanon wanted Israel out. With that said, why is it Israel that needs to support them? Are they so ignorant as to support themselves? Where are the other muslim nations? seems to me if you eliminate Iran and Syria from the equation, most of the problems would be solved.
Why does Israel not defend itself and prevent situations like this from erupting?
WTF?seems to me they are doing just that
I don't know, perhaps that would make too much sense. One should not actively seek out war.
seems that the Palestinian are seeking a war against an enemy far better than them selves. then again they are used to suicide.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

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Quote:
Innvertigo said: No I believe all of the homocide bombings, kidnappings, missles fired into civilian houses, car bombs, etc. had to do with it.
Yeah, Israel isn't doing anything to have such things coming, like um...I dunno, occupying another country illegally. 
The fact is, Israel murders way way way more Palestinians than vice versa. They kidnap the Palestinians (arresting lol) and you may say they are terrorists, but what is an IDF soldier to you if your Palestinian? They blow up essential infrastructure, block roadways with with incoming air, etc. etc.
What else can the palestinians do? They don't have the most powerful country in the world on their side, or 3 billion $$$ aid coming in from them.
If I were a Palestinian, and my whole family was blown up, I would probably want revenge too.
-------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!


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Quote:
Yeah, judging by your sig, you payed for those muscles, so I would want to see them used too.
boo friggin' whoooo
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America....FUCK YEAH!!! Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
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This is more exciting than the World Cup
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

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Palestanians Deaths vs Israeli Death. September 28th, 2000 - February 15, 2006 [Total Number of Palestinian deaths] : 4209
Children: 892 Women : 273 Men : 3044 [Palestinians killed by Jewish settlers] 72
[Palestinians killed as a result of Israeli shelling] : 837
[Deaths as a result of medical prevention at Israeli checkpoints] : 117
Of them stillbirths (born dead at checkpoints) : 31 [Number of Palestinians extra-judicially assassinated] : 561
Of them bystanders killed during extra-judicial operations: 253 [Total Number Israeli deaths]: 1113
Children : 113 Women : 305 Men : 603 Settlers : 213 Soldiers : 322
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_against_Israel_in_2003
-------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
Edited by alpharedecho (07/13/06 06:14 PM)
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

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Published: 07/11/2006 12:00 AM (UAE) Israel 'is using chemical ammunition' By Duraid Al Baik, Foreign Editor
http://www.gulfnews.com/region/Middl.../10052824.html
Dubai: A doctor at a Palestinian hospital has accused Israel of using a type of chemical ammunition which causes burns and injuries in soft tissue and cannot be traced by X-ray.
Chemical or depleted uranium could have been used in producing the new type of ammunition according to Dr Jomaa Al Saqqa, head of the Emergency Unit at Gaza's main medical facility, the Al Shifa Hospital...........
-------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


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You forgot to mention how many of those Palestinian deaths were a direct result of violent acts against Israel.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

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Re: Israel [Re: Seuss]
#5855569 - 07/13/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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How many? 100, 200? so what.
-------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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RosettaStoned
Stranger

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Quote:
Who did Plastine originally belong to? I believe it was the Jews.
So by this logic we should give america back to the native american indians right?
-------------------- "Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson "Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa
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