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Invisibletruekimbo2
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i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real...
    #5849946 - 07/12/06 06:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i've seen alot of poeple post on the shroomery about how they've had OBE's on drugs.
a real OBE leaves one with the ability to control thier perceptions to the limits on thier skill and is more or less instantly reacts to desire.

anyhow, my only point is, if you were really having an obe, you could instantly tell yourself not to trip and you wouldn't be tripping, you'd just be out of body.
also generally for an untrained person any sort of movement or conscious directions tends to be very difficult at first till you learn how it works. OBE's at first tend to be rather short and generally only with practice can a person stay out for extended periods of time.

i believe that when poeple think they're having a drug induced OBE they're most likely having a drug induced deep trance.

edit: another point is if it was a real obe you should be able to stop it at any time most likely or with practice.


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Edited by truekimbo2 (07/12/06 06:52 AM)

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Invisibleindica
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #5849972 - 07/12/06 06:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I've had OBE's on shrooms.
I disagree with your point to a degree but agree at the same time.

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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: indica]
    #5850045 - 07/12/06 07:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I disagree. You want to tell me drugs dont induce OBE's?...i have three letters for you... DMT

Also, during intense meditation while on small doses of psychedelics I find OBE's to be relatively common for myself. On high doses of mushrooms and occasionally LSD, I also experience OBE's.

My question to you is, how can you tell other people what they are, or are not experiencing?

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Offlinetheorganicdomino
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #5850069 - 07/12/06 08:02 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I've drifted out of my third eye on Salvia to inhabit a world of tree people and elves, and on a very high dose of mushrooms I've become a parcel of light flying at high speed through space towards a giant jellyfish like space station.

I'd count these as out of body experiences - my consciousness was altered, I broke through the boundary of reality and left my body. Granted that's a belief, but it all comes down to what you think really happens when you ingest a psychedelic - is it illusion, or is it a spiritual experience in which the illusion of so called reality is lifted? - for me it's the latter.

Also, what about near death experiences of OBEs? By your definition those aren't real either!


--------------------
"You've got to get hold of the thread of marching time, pull the fuck thing down, get on the end of it and pang yourself to the infinitude of absolute mind"
Ken Campbell - Furtive Nudist

"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced" - Aart van der Leeuw

Edited by theorganicdomino (07/12/06 08:03 AM)

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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #5850102 - 07/12/06 08:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't really understand why your definition of OBE is what it is.
What is a K-hole, then?  Unconsciousness?  Even though you are awake?

Is a level 5 psychedelic the same?  If it's not an OBE, it'd have to be a waking unconsciousness, right?

But you are aware of your existance at the same time.  Maybe not your existance, but an existance none-the-less.  It's not nothing...it's something.  So it's not total unconsciousness.  More like an OBE.... :wink:


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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #5850104 - 07/12/06 08:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

if your out of body your out of body...I don't think it really has anything to do your ability to control it

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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: mockeylock]
    #5850120 - 07/12/06 08:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i believe most of those drug experiances are a consciousness still in its body, but heavily tranced out.
i listed my reasons, having had over 200 non-drug induced OBEs/read everything i could about it.
basically if you were really out of body you could stop tripping any time you wanted/go back to your body whenever you wanted. i mean i'm not saying people defintely aren't having OBE's, but if you think you are, try and move around (change your environment/visit real world places) or tell yourself "i'm not going to trip anymore i want to be lucid" and see what happens. if it doesn't work you're not really out of your body/or you don't have the skill (most likely the first)

also, i've smoked dmt and salvia and been k holed and done ayahuasca. in none of those situations was i able to negate the drug's effects and travel at will/maintain my usual level of lucidity with the exception of ayahuasca, and in that situation i didn't feel i was actually out of my body at all. (to be perfectly honest though i've only smoked a pinch of dmt, more experiance with the 5-meo-variety)
also i've met several re-occuring "beings" while out of body. these beings do not appear in my drug experiances and the energies (not really beings...) i see in psychedelic sessions do not present themselves while out of body.

i'm not totally trying to be a dick, just trying to get poeple thinking.

personally i believe non-drug induced out of body experiances are worth more than drug trips.

edit: i should also not i believe that people CAN train themselves to leave thier body on psychedelics. i don't believe it is common at all.

as far as i know NDE's are trauma induced OBE's? i don't get the differnce.

also on further edit: you dont' have to leave your body to see other places or energetically travel to other places. it may sound like a slight differnce but traveling while in body is like being able to walk around and traveling while out of body is like being able to fly around.


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Edited by truekimbo2 (07/12/06 08:39 AM)

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InvisibleMezcal
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5850148 - 07/12/06 08:50 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Iamthewalrus said:
if your out of body your out of body...I don't think it really has anything to do your ability to control it




Agreed. We're talking about a purely subjective experience. It follows logically that the only pertinant factors would be subjective analysis, reducing to the question, "Do I think I am not in my body?"

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Offlinetheorganicdomino
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #5850216 - 07/12/06 09:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
personally i believe non-drug induced out of body experiences are worth more than drug trips.





Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I find this a snobbish point of view.

It's the Mircea Eliade vs Terrence McKenna argument of what's more spiritually pure. McKenna's view is that the loss of psychedelics (due to many factors, changes in climate, cultural shifts, religious persecution) within certain tribal cultures necessitated the development of meditational techniques to replace what was much more easily accomplished through "mind manifesting" plants.

I'm all for people trying both, but to say one is better than the other seems churlish and since you have had success in OBEs a tad condescending and, I'll repeat it, "snobbish".


--------------------
"You've got to get hold of the thread of marching time, pull the fuck thing down, get on the end of it and pang yourself to the infinitude of absolute mind"
Ken Campbell - Furtive Nudist

"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reality to be experienced" - Aart van der Leeuw

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Offlinepalmersc
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #5850250 - 07/12/06 09:37 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:
try and move around (change your environment/visit real world places)




I'm not sure what these real world places you speak of are. My perception of these "places" is not the same as my normal waking state, so I don't see how one can expect to "move around" in a way which can be paralleled to the way we normally think about "moving around."

What have you gotten out of your over 200 non drug induced OBE's that is so valuable and more desirable?

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OfflineShroomMan420
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: palmersc]
    #5850258 - 07/12/06 09:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I had a obe on shrooms.. :mushroom2:


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OfflineClammyJoe
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #5850260 - 07/12/06 09:41 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Please, you should know by now that its all relative, our reality, as well as other realities are all subjective anyway.

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Offlineleery11
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: ClammyJoe]
    #5850755 - 07/12/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i think the only time i've been some place "real" while "out of body" (or being about to leave body) was on salvia.

i think this because my mom randomly told me that our dogs went insane barking at something one day.... and i was floating outside the window of the house..... reeling in shock and surprise becuase it was my first experience with salvia......

but maybe the dogs just picked up on my energetic vibes that i was sending that way or something.

other than that what makes OBE's real? I want to have a real one but I just am skeptical that they are just lucid dreams....... it would be awful neat to vividly walk around REALITY while out of body and see everything in superb detail.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (07/12/06 12:56 PM)

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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: ClammyJoe]
    #5850768 - 07/12/06 01:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

hmm, i'm not sure if i'm supposed to keep responding, i think i pretty much made all my points, including:
"i'm not trying to be a dick, just get poeple thinking"

i guess my opinion about OBEing being better for spiritual growth is based on a couple factors:
-natural, always available to anyone without brain damage.
-no risk of physical harm in any way, less risk of emotional or mental harm.
- free-er. for me drugs always seem to have an agenda and points of view. not sure if i phrased that right but i'm sure you get what i'm saying.
- most important, if i'm trying to gain spiritual knowledge it feels more acceptable for me to trust experiances that don't occur in the physical, or as a result of physical actions.
- drugs almost always seem to have some sort of delusions attached to them that i later have to spend a long time getting rid of.

i haven't learned much from OBEing. i've had some wierd shit happen, but not the inmyface kind of learning psychedelics give.
mainly its very specific lesson's on how perception works, also time.
to be honest i've had more intense and interesting OBE's than drug trips though.

also, i do not believe all realities are subjective. if that was so we wouldn't be able to communicate, so at worst we can say they're semi-subjective. it also appears there is a place where subjective viewpoints meet, that place could be called objective reality. i think that topic is better debated in S&P though.

if you want to have an obe, just lie completely still with your eyes closed and don't go to sleep. when you start feeling wierd, go with it instead of fighting it. if you do that you will go out of body.
at an hour a day you should get some sort of "wierd feeling" within a week. it can be instantly to many months before you learn to go with it instead of waking up.


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Edited by truekimbo2 (07/12/06 01:12 PM)

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Offlinededjam
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #5850812 - 07/12/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:


i guess my opinion about OBEing being better for spiritual growth is based on a couple factors:
-natural, always available to anyone without brain damage.
-no risk of physical harm in any way, less risk of emotional or mental harm.
- free-er. for me drugs always seem to have an agenda and points of view. not sure if i phrased that right but i'm sure you get what i'm saying.
- most important, if i'm trying to gain spiritual knowledge it feels more acceptable for me to trust experiances that don't occur in the physical, or as a result of physical actions.
- drugs almost always seem to have some sort of delusions attached to them that i later have to spend a long time getting rid of.





- many drugs are considered natural, and natural or not who said anything about brain damage? What psychedelic are you talking about there?
- I think the risks with using drugs or just using yourself are the same. Most psychedelic drugs pose little physical harm, and I would say that the potential for psychological damage is pretty much the same. I know I have had "bad trips" while in deep meditation before.
- Just because you let the drug control you doesnt mean others do. You sound very close minded. I dont mean that to be insulting, but you are taking something psychological that applies to you and trying to apply it to others. If you are to the point you say you are in your ability to produce OBE's than I guess I would assume you would be a bit more open...
- Are you saying you cant do drugs for spiritual purposes? I dont understand you statement on this point. Some of my most spiritual moments have been under the influence of psychedelics. Once again you are applying something personal to everyone. Many people use hallucinogens for spiritual purposes, dating back thousands of years.
- Once again, the delusions are a personal thing. I really have no clue what you are talking about and I have been using psychedelics for many years.


Really I think you have an interesting post. The problem here is that you are trying to apply your personal feelings and experiences to the masses. You CANNOT do that logically. Just because something works or doesnt work for you does not give you the right to say it has to be the same for others.

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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #5850817 - 07/12/06 01:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

truekimbo2 said:

also, i do not believe all realities are subjective. if that was so we wouldn't be able to communicate, so at worst we can say they're semi-subjective. it also appears there is a place where subjective viewpoints meet, that place could be called objective reality. i think that topic is better debated in S&P though.





I dont follow your logic here. Realities are subjective, we are are just grounded by common things. Thats what thousands of years of human evolution will do. Do you think humans started out all on the same page?

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OfflineIamthewalrus
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: dedjam]
    #5850869 - 07/12/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

well said

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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: Iamthewalrus]
    #5850941 - 07/12/06 02:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

this will be my last post in this thread.

everything i said was precede by "i believe" or "its my opinion"

all my point was, is that i don't believe poeple on these boards that say they're having drug induced OBE's really are.

edit: also, assuming you all believe in the validity of the OBE phenomon, "real" OBE's can be verifyed by other poeple. so they're not fully subjective.
i have seen and accurately reported to poeple what they felt in a dream, OBEing. so i can tell the differnce bettween dreams and OBE's at least. also, i've never "viewed" a person who either looked like or claimed to have had a drug induced OBE, but when i "see" poeple on drugs they look like they're on drugs, not dreaming or OBEing. i've heard the same thing from a couple other poeple, including one person who's info i find to be highly accurate.

further edit: i guess a pretty good indicator would be during OBE's the body usually appears to be in a very deep sleep. breathing and heartrate can drop very low. i guess if you were having a drug induced OBE and your friend's said it looked like you weren't breathing i was trust it more.


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Edited by truekimbo2 (07/12/06 02:22 PM)

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OfflineClammyJoe
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: truekimbo2]
    #5850942 - 07/12/06 02:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

But in their minds they do. Thus, they are.

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InvisibleBobHumboldt
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Re: i believe psychedelic induced OBE's are not real... [Re: ClammyJoe]
    #5851345 - 07/12/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

great thread, people. "I" don't know whether or not "I" am even "really" "here".

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