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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: stemmer]
    #5849568 - 07/12/06 01:12 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Only two of those people were what i would call dumb.
none of them knew really what to expect. But were given the impression that the substance was a "trip" by the experiences of their peers.

The last person mentioned (the coma one) was MoeHoward from this here forum. which was a stupid thing to do, but moe is not a stupid guy.

obviously you have a personal relationship with this plant,
thats nice.

why? does it feed you? are you learning anything practical?

what it all comes down to is personal entertainment. you are entertaining yourself by being an elite user of something that makes a fool out of others but not you.
you aren't serving your fellows with this action, as would a shaman, you are acting wholly for yourself. thats not a BAD thing, but you claimed "usefullness" explain.


seems the only thing you've learned from this great teacher is how to see things in black and white.
Quote:


"Every story you mentioned is the equivalent to people jumping out of windows when on lsd."




wrong, you see, these types of experiences are NORMAL for datura, whereas acid window jumping is quite abnormal.

Quote:

Mitchnast, you might as well add me to the "list". You might not look like such an ignorant person who wants to demonize a drug that is used safely by alot of people, and has been for thousands of years.




consider yourself added.
to the club of the biased and bewitched.

for evry elite thats succeeded in experiencing datura in "thousands of years" how many have you KNOWN to never fuck up? are shamans some sort of devine being to you? They are just people who consume substances to acheive a spiritual divination, the practical result of which is hopelessly impractical in modern reality.

so WHY DO IT?

Taking for idiots those who don't understand "you" is a hallmark of the LEAST enlightened.

What have you leaned? really, help me understand, I will get it. I don't want to hear an excuse like "only certain types of people can get it" or just general claims of it being a useful tool with no actual explaination of practicality.
EVEN ON A PURELY AUTO-INSIGHTFUL level.
ANYTHING.

why? why so useful?

what makes you, and whatever kind you subscribe as, so special?

what makes the uninitiated an idiot?

Got some poetry or art you couldn't have made withought it?

I've done it as you describe, carefully and respectfully, taking the time to USE its influence to focus on the supernatural. And I'm GOOD at that. REAL good. NEVER fucked up. And if anything, it subtracts from the experience of introspection. Maybe in a way that adds experience for life, but NOT useful.

MAYBE its not useful to you either, MAYBE just MAYBE you have convinced yourself it is. WHY? well lets use me as an example. I know me pretty well, and im the same species as you, dispite attitude differences, my chemistry is the same.

I am facinated by Poisonous spiders. I like to keep them around and feed them, they are dear to me, I argue their right to live with anyone, I argue that they make rewarding pets.

But you know what? THEY'RE USELESS. They exist to exist, they are poisonous to survive.

EXACTLY like datura... and you.

It is a familliar you've imprinted upon.

Frankly, I think I get this "usefullness" you speak of in a far more logical way simply by nurturing the plants and growing them in my garden.

now, all that messy explaining aside. I never said one should not try it did I? All I did is give some examples of common reactions I KNOW to be accurate. I suggested that one would likely not enjoy it. also true, you must aggree.
your frustration, much apparent, lies where? In people (other than you) in the plants hazardous nature? where?

I ask the good questions. they are RIGHT to the point, and most people avoid answeing them because they don't know what the answer will mean. The BEST I say.

You're human, me too, Practically identical. and yet, you think otherwise. Or am I wrong?

Is there really this GIGANTIC difference that so DRASTICALLY alters the way we subjectively experience

one........little.......plant?

your answer will determine as much about you as me, since that difference is only relative to what we BOTH are without it.

Even if you just blow it off. it's the answer.



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OfflineOrganic
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: ngnyus]
    #5849701 - 07/12/06 02:31 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Don't die on us of an OD with Shroomery tatooted on yer nutbag


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: Organic]
    #5849793 - 07/12/06 03:46 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

this is pretty simple realy:
what you want isnt there.

you seem to be looking for a low dose that is safe, but strong enuff to achieve minor effects.
when the thing with these plants seem to be that if u took enuff to feel anything at all, you already got one foot in the grave.
threshhold and deadly doses are so close together thats its always going to be risky outside of a symbolic dose.

if i understand you correctly you want to do this in order to enhance
your relationship with the plant in a spriritual sense, or something like that.

so i would advise you take a symbolic dose, say 1 square cm of leaf and 5mm of leefstem or something like that.
(EDIT: NOT ACTUAL ADVICE, MERELY AN EXAMPLE)

see aside from the entoxicating effects, these plants also have a medicinal value.
so a minute dose like that wouldent provide anything u could experiance, but it does have a medicinal effect on your body.

(EDIT: any1 have any info on medicinal doses?)

allowing the plants healing powers to effect you wile respecting them enuff not to let the beast out seems like the most spiritual thing u can do with this plant.

also Organic has a point, that tattoo kinda makes u a rolemodel doesent it? :wink:

since ure into the religious aspects of drugs u should consider clicking the banner in my siggy, u may find the holy grail...


--------------------
-Know ye not that ye are gods?-
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Edited by Vertigo6911 (07/12/06 03:49 AM)


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #5849974 - 07/12/06 06:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vertigo6911 said:
so i would advise you take a symbolic dose,


allowing the plants healing powers to effect you wile respecting them enuff not to let the beast out seems like the most spiritual thing u can do with this plant.





ahh, symbolic dosage, what a perfect term.

technically tho, you ould acheive the same effects by NOT consuming it, technically you could just TALK to it, and spiritually, it is effective.

medicinally, Tropanes are used in surgery, for example, atropine is administered to correct a baracardia (sp) heart rythim. nasty stuff. Once upon a time datura was sold pharmaceutically in ciggarettes as a treatment for asthma.

In theory, i suppose a small dosage could treat pnemonia due to its radical diarrhetic qualities.

But as for it "healing" there are so many other plants that "heal" better. It is nothing shy of delision to think datura gained its notariety in spiritual circles for its "healing" qualities. Without the deleriant, it would just be another garden variety flower.

Avoiding the deleriant effects, but still consuming it (symbolic dose) Is effective ONLY because your mind makes it so. It is intention of the user to acheive placebo effect from the stongest of drugs. And therefore, it is fundementally silly.

It would do one well to have shaman administer dosage so he can exchange it with a non-toxic variety of plant and let you BELIEVE youre consuming datura.

SAME effect. Extrordinary, one must be, to fool ones self effectively, the pinnacle of dicipline, and similtaneously the opposite of insight.

sort of like in the hitchikers guide to the galaxy, the secret of flight is to throw yourself at the ground. and miss.
You can't do this intentionally, it must be accidental, for if you TRY to miss, you will fail to.

So i suppose as long as you don't KNOW that symbolic dosage is ultimatley fruitless outside of your coporeal mental landscape, It could be something to try. Just mentally block out all this nonsense about it being fruitless and try not to get distracted by "reality" while you try to experience it while NOT being on it, and thinking that you are.
After a few loops of logic like this, it will all become clear. And by that I mean totally obscured and murky, but 'accepted' as clear.

I knew a guy who used to consume aloe in joints because he beleived it was an "MAOI" and helped THC "oxidize"

He would get SO FRIGGIN HIGH!!!!

consider that


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: ngnyus]
    #5849994 - 07/12/06 06:52 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Without the deleriant, it would just be another garden variety flower.




well it obviously means more to ngnyus then that.

and when i say symbolic, i realy mean it litteraly.
but now that i think about it theres another approach to this idea:

what about the idea of using ayahuasca to communicate with a plant?

ngnyus can u elaborate and what exactly it is you want to do/achieve here?


--------------------
-Know ye not that ye are gods?-
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OfflineOrganic
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: ngnyus]
    #5850058 - 07/12/06 07:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I am not going to recommend you ingesting datura in any form...

That said, I have myself, probably 9 years ago now. I collected several hundred flowers, leaves, and pods of Strammonium (sp?) from a logging site. Ate two leaves and literally thought the world was ending and I was having lapses of memory, forgetting I had done the drug. I stayed in my basement for most of the experience which is something I would never do on any other drug. I went outside and saw shit I knew wasn't there (people that have died, a yellow vortex swirling in the clouds) and proceeded to try and pass out constantly to stop the experience. Interestingly, each time I would wake up, the pile of water, alcohol, and cigs beside me had grown enormously, when there were actually just two butts and a water jug sitting there :shrug:

Being young and dumb, I repeated the experience a few weeks later by smoking about a quarter sized portion of a dry leaf mixed with a flake of a flower. I felt more "stoned" off this amount and it was actually quite pleasant for the brief come-up. I still had strong hallucinations out of the corners of my eyes. I would be spooked because a tree limb/car whatever would start growing/rolling forward out of the corner of my eyes. Reminded me of amphetamine psychosis.

IMO, Datura is just going to detach you from what you are experiencing in Ayahuasca, and make the experience less memorable (literally). Datura should be not even be used on its own, in EXTREMELY minute doses, unless you have a sitter and are prepared for HELL. Even then, just don't do it.


--------------------


Edited by Organic (07/12/06 09:50 AM)


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OfflineOrganic
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: Organic]
    #5850066 - 07/12/06 08:01 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

BTW, be prepared to look like you've been injected LSD into your eyes for a few days...my pupils were massive (and eyes irritated) for at least 3-4 days after eating it.


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: Organic]
    #5850199 - 07/12/06 09:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

my eyes turned orange :P


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Offlinemr_minds_eye
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: Mitchnast]
    #5850257 - 07/12/06 09:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mitchnast said:
Quote:

Vertigo6911 said:
so i would advise you take a symbolic dose,


allowing the plants healing powers to effect you wile respecting them enuff not to let the beast out seems like the most spiritual thing u can do with this plant.





ahh, symbolic dosage, what a perfect term.

technically tho, you ould acheive the same effects by NOT consuming it, technically you could just TALK to it, and spiritually, it is effective.

medicinally, Tropanes are used in surgery, for example, atropine is administered to correct a baracardia (sp) heart rythim. nasty stuff. Once upon a time datura was sold pharmaceutically in ciggarettes as a treatment for asthma.

In theory, i suppose a small dosage could treat pnemonia due to its radical diarrhetic qualities.

But as for it "healing" there are so many other plants that "heal" better. It is nothing shy of delision to think datura gained its notariety in spiritual circles for its "healing" qualities. Without the deleriant, it would just be another garden variety flower.

Avoiding the deleriant effects, but still consuming it (symbolic dose) Is effective ONLY because your mind makes it so. It is intention of the user to acheive placebo effect from the stongest of drugs. And therefore, it is fundementally silly.

It would do one well to have shaman administer dosage so he can exchange it with a non-toxic variety of plant and let you BELIEVE youre consuming datura.

SAME effect. Extrordinary, one must be, to fool ones self effectively, the pinnacle of dicipline, and similtaneously the opposite of insight.

sort of like in the hitchikers guide to the galaxy, the secret of flight is to throw yourself at the ground. and miss.
You can't do this intentionally, it must be accidental, for if you TRY to miss, you will fail to.

So i suppose as long as you don't KNOW that symbolic dosage is ultimatley fruitless outside of your coporeal mental landscape, It could be something to try. Just mentally block out all this nonsense about it being fruitless and try not to get distracted by "reality" while you try to experience it while NOT being on it, and thinking that you are.
After a few loops of logic like this, it will all become clear. And by that I mean totally obscured and murky, but 'accepted' as clear.

I knew a guy who used to consume aloe in joints because he beleived it was an "MAOI" and helped THC "oxidize"

He would get SO FRIGGIN HIGH!!!!

consider that



Interesting idea. The thing with any intoxicant is that there is physical intoxication and mental intoxication. This is why driving under the influince is bad even if you feel ok. Slowed reaction times and all that. Some people are more in tune with this than others. For an example my girlfriend honestly believes that she is still pretty much sober even after she starts to lose motor skills. Anyone experienced with Kava knows that your motor skills start to fade before you get drunk on it. Anyways point being, with Datura there is a tendency to underestimate how much it is really effecting you. Hence the "safe" trip tip of not redosing. At any rate. This isn't entirely the issue here. What I am getting at is that a small subdelierieant dose does have nonplacebo effects. In particullar, when combined with classic psychedelics. Personally I have had experience with the LSA-Datura combination. I took a dose of Datura which wouldn't have done anything noticable on it's own with about 300 mg seeds, which otherwise, wouldn't have been anything to write home about with spectacularly breathtaking results. So an itty bitty amount with some MAOI + DMT makes that small small amount of Datura very significant. By the way from your descriptions it sounds like your list is of people who had misadventures with Datura as the primary intoxicant. This is a different (although still potentially dangerous) story and situation.


--------------------
Our quest for discovery fuels our creativity in all fields, not just science. If we reached the end of the line, the human spirit would shrivel and die. But I don't think we will ever stand still: we shall increase in complexity, if not in depth, and shall always be the center on an expanding horizon of possibilities.
-Stephen Hawking


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InvisibleEdgarAllanPoe55
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... *DELETED* [Re: mr_minds_eye]
    #5850368 - 07/12/06 10:25 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by EdgarAllanPoe55

Reason for deletion: Covering Tracks



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OfflineChromeCrow
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: Mitchnast]
    #5850513 - 07/12/06 11:21 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mitchnast said:
I'm not going to try to stop you.
at least you KNOW what youre about to do and can therefore take precautions.

im fairly sure in the end youre just going to realize its not a good idea. but ive seen MANY people consume it. and although ALL had incomparable, BIZZARE and out-of-control dark journeys ending up in strange places.

none died....

well, that is to say one fell naked down a flight of stairs in back of a store, another packed up all his things into bags in the living room and spoke gibberish on immaginary phones to his mom. Still another got into an argument with the siding on his house that turned to "swings" resulting in bloddy knuckes and missing yards of siding...
one woke his father while trying to make coffee out of socks in his drawers. My best friend threw an imaginary party in his house while is parents watched him socialize with laundry hanging over chairs (must have been hippies)
one guy spent the night strapped to a bed after he was found crawling on his belly around an intersection digging into the pavement with his fingernails, trying to pick up cigarettes.
Oh, then there was the guy who grasped a knife by the blade and unkowinlgy sliced his hand all up while trying to fish tiny people out of a cup with the dull end.

dark, creepy, spotty, uncomfortable and downright hostile.
one popular fellow Ive not personally met managed to scrawl "DATUR" on his arm before circumstances occured that culminated with him waking up from a coma 2 weeks later.

but hey, better to know right?

let me know what happens, i will add you to the list if it's good.




I too havent had the ball to try, but an old buddy of mine, spent hours talking to his ( long ) dead grandfather... maybe he REALLY was , who can say.

after he finished that he spent the rest of the day watching cartoons on his bedroom door....


--------------------
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Offlinethe man
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: ChromeCrow]
    #5850557 - 07/12/06 11:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

a day of barely beign able to see becaue of dry eyes and i think enourmous pupils. spitting blood from my dry throat. feeling like death. extreme disphoria.

teaspoon of seed befor bed. man that was dumb.


--------------------
And Moses Said "Let my mushrooms grow!"


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Offlinepod3
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- [Re: EdgarAllanPoe55]
    #5850598 - 07/12/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

-


Edited by pod3 (10/26/06 09:27 AM)


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: pod3]
    #5850996 - 07/12/06 02:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

hmm,
datura and the ego as compared to mushrooms and ego.

i think perhsps that datura no more effects ego than sleep depravation would. even in delusion, you are you, separate from peripheral reality AND hallucination.

whereas mushrooms connect you to halucination and reality by removing sence of psysical boundry and separation.

Datura also negatively effects memory.

just some ponts, i gotta go in a hurry, otherwise i would post more.


Edited by Mitchnast (07/15/06 12:48 AM)


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Offlinengnyus
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: Mitchnast]
    #5852638 - 07/12/06 09:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thanx vertigo I, it's like you were reading my mind.


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: ngnyus]
    #5853586 - 07/13/06 01:26 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

People have horrid trip off of datura type plants because they are not ready, have the wrong expectations in some way/dont like it, or they took to much.

Its a pretty hairy subject especially when dealing with maois.

A small amount is totally different if you have taken maois(obviously). Thats why a person would talk about it in VERY low dose terms when it involves ayahuasca. You can take a very small amount of datura with it and it can be much more intense, and safe as well as long as you are not an idiot in even one of the variety of ways I have described.

There is a reason people dont try to potentiate a low dose of datura with maois. It has to be a much lower dose to not really fuck yourself up in a very unsafe way. Dose info on the internet is pretty shady when it comes to so many of these substances. A low dose you read about on the internet is not neccessarily you ideal low dose at all. Just like mushrooms.

Less is more. Be safe. This drug is not bad, the devil, or uncomfortable for all people. Im just sick of the misinformation.

In case I didnt stress this enough, dont use it with maois.
If you choose to, you know who you are, and I hope you have chosen to for the right reasons, because it almost certainly is not going to make your trip more "fun". I hope its what you were asking for if you do so, in other words. I wouldnt recommend it, but I on the other hand got alot out of it. To each his own.

NEVER TAKE EVEN HALF OF A NORMAL DOSE OF DATURA PLANTS WITH ENOUGH MAOIS TO CAUSE FULL-MAOI-INHIBITION................ Thats just asking for trouble. A good, super small dose is a great additive to ayahuasca for the right people though, as difficult as it can be.

Even if you take a normal oral dose of datura seeds(most common), I hope you dont exceed you limit. Taking it by its self is hairy enough subject.



Edited by stemmer (07/13/06 02:37 AM)


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: stemmer]
    #5853821 - 07/13/06 05:15 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Thanx vertigo I, it's like you were reading my mind.




i think your also the only one here who actualy gets what im trying to say here lol.

i think the main thing whith what your doing is that u have to have a mental connection to the plant when the aya is coming on, it hs to be at the forefront of your thoughts.

i think maybe art is a good way to do that.
take a lon time to look at your plants and take in all the detail n stuff.
then include the drawing of the plant in your ritual as a preperation
and place your drawing at an alter of some sort.
then when the aya is coming on look at that picture and maybe sing a song about the plant, or one that reminds u of it, if there is such a thing for you etc.


--------------------
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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #5853863 - 07/13/06 06:36 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

how exactly do tropanes work with MAO inhibitors?

any documents on the matter where these ideas came from?
what reference was this information researched from?


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Offlinepod3
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- [Re: Mitchnast]
    #5854311 - 07/13/06 11:11 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

-


Edited by pod3 (10/26/06 09:25 AM)


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Offlinengnyus
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Re: O.K. I know all the warnings I'm gonna get but... [Re: pod3]
    #5859538 - 07/14/06 08:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thanx to all of you guys for such honest answers on such a touchy topic. :bow:


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