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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: d33p]
#5852225 - 07/12/06 08:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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d33p said:
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Trepiodos said: Japan was defeated, they had been driven back. Japan was willing to surrender with conditions, the U.S. wanted unconditional surrender. The funny (or not) thing is that after they surrendered, we allowed them the conditions that they wanted.
Bolded to answer your question. I haven't seen that show on THC. Read the book, if you can't be bothered too, search the forum, i dont think the last debate on the subject has been deleted yet. And I actually just deleted the links i used from that debate two days ago when cleaning out my favoirtes folder, oh well.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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trauma47645
The MushroomKing


Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 771
Loc: Somewhere in this place c...
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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: d33p]
#5852262 - 07/12/06 08:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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all those old world, middle eastern, indian continent religions are all useless as far as I am concerned.. all they preach is hate, and intolerance.. all they do is fight.. and all that is obtained is multiple deaths for nothing... Its been going on for thousands of years... Just let that area of the world be and the fighting and killing will help to regulate the skyrocketing population..
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: RosettaStoned]
#5852278 - 07/12/06 08:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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RosettaStoned said: And I would also wager allowing their much loved emperor to continue to breathe and work to rebuild a new govt is a pretty damn big concession. They were also talking of surrender but the US would not stop short of unconditional.
What part of that again is revisionist?
That too(bolded). And bolding "they" in the second sentence was not a mistake.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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RosettaStoned
Stranger

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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: d33p]
#5853468 - 07/13/06 12:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Did you have a point?
-------------------- "Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson "Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa
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quiver
freedrug


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: RosettaStoned]
#5853530 - 07/13/06 01:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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well yours doesnt show where you're are from so ill assume your a refugee living in the west hypocrits and racists always presume their enemies are american,they're not the only ones who hate the east bro
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Edited by quiver (07/13/06 01:03 AM)
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RosettaStoned
Stranger

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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: quiver]
#5853555 - 07/13/06 01:09 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Happy?
-------------------- "Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson "Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa
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quiver
freedrug


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: RosettaStoned]
#5853596 - 07/13/06 01:30 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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swear on the quran and i might be,hang on,you are allowed to lie under oath with that comic book arent you?
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: RosettaStoned]
#5853633 - 07/13/06 02:02 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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RosettaStoned said: Did you have a point?
Once when i was four i was taking a bath with Mr. bubbles. It felt really good and i was splashing around having a fun time. Well, i was playing with mr. ducky and i accidently threw him out of the bath tub. After i got mr. ducky, when was getting back into the bath tub i rubbed up against the side of the tub as i was steping over the wall. It felt really strange, kind of like a tickle. When i got back into the tub i noticed something strange: I had a point!
But beside the point, i was only tring to correct a common misconception. I rarely act on these urges anymore in this forum becaause they usually lead nowhere fast but the ww2 one is so grevious in my eyes i always need to respond to it.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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RosettaStoned
Stranger

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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: d33p]
#5855956 - 07/13/06 08:40 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
But beside the point, i was only tring to correct a common misconception. I rarely act on these urges anymore in this forum becaause they usually lead nowhere fast but the ww2 one is so grevious in my eyes i always need to respond to it.
What exactly was so "grevious"? All you did was bold what I originally said. Which my info is backed up by the history channel. I'm am curious as to what errors you are trying to point out.
And I am asked to swear on the quran??? This is just too funny. If I ran out of toilet paper, I would reach for the quran as a substitute. But since I don't own one I'd reach for the pages out of my bible that I didn't rip out to roll a joint with when I was a teenager. Sorry, but I don't buy into mainstream bullshit.
-------------------- "Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson "Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: RosettaStoned]
#5856406 - 07/13/06 11:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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RosettaStoned said:
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But beside the point, i was only tring to correct a common misconception. I rarely act on these urges anymore in this forum becaause they usually lead nowhere fast but the ww2 one is so grevious in my eyes i always need to respond to it.
What exactly was so "grevious"? All you did was bold what I originally said. Which my info is backed up by the history channel. I'm am curious as to what errors you are trying to point out.
Dropping the bombs and ending the war was one of the best things the USA ever did in its history. I dislike when people try to make it seem like it wasn't. And i bolded what was incorrect as you asked me to point it out. Incorrect as in not true. And if that THC show does supposedly back up what you wrote then you either didn't comprehend the show's contents or the show was a bastardization of the book of the same name. Like i said, read the book or just search the forum on this topic. I have no desire to go into a long debate on the issue for the forth time in two years.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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quiver
freedrug


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: RosettaStoned]
#5856661 - 07/14/06 12:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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if you dont by into mainstream bs why do you defend YOUR enemies?
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RosettaStoned
Stranger

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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: quiver]
#5858454 - 07/14/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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quiver said: if you dont by into mainstream bs why do you defend YOUR enemies?
My enimies? What did they do to me?
-------------------- "Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson "Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa
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RosettaStoned
Stranger

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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: d33p]
#5858512 - 07/14/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Dropping the bombs and ending the war was one of the best things the USA ever did in its history. I dislike when people try to make it seem like it wasn't.
That is NOT a historical fact. It is your opinion. And I dislike it when people try to pass their opinion off as fact. You seem to want to overlook the fact that japan's ability to wage any offensive warfare was diminished to the point of almost non-existence; which the H channel clearly documented. Like I said in an earlier post here, weather the bomb use was justified is based on your point of view. Weather the war was already won is not based on point of view, it is fact. I'm not outright saying that using the bomb was a mistake, I'm simply pointing out it wasn't "necessary to end the war". Did it shorten it? Perhaps. Did it prevent more loss of american lives? Perhaps, but at what cost? Did we really "need" unconditional surrender from japan? Would surrender with terms not have worked just as well? We'll never know.
It is most certainly not cut and dry as you try to make it. And it is a point which will continue to be debated further for many centuries to come, provided there are still intellectuals left to discuss it.
-------------------- "Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson "Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: RosettaStoned]
#5858539 - 07/14/06 04:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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You really need to do more research on this than just recalling what you thought you saw on a single television program.
Japan was NOT on the verge of surrender. There is abundant and unassailable documentary proof of this, most of it Japanese. This isn't my opinion (or anyone's opinion, for that matter), this is fact, well supported by records and documents of the time.
There were SOME Japanese who felt like throwing in the towel, true. But they weren't the ones making the decision.
It can be argued Japan was ready to cave after the first bomb was dropped on Hiroshima (although the evidence in support of that claim is at best debatable) and that the second bomb on Nagasaki was overkill. But to argue they were willing to surrender before Hiroshima is to argue against fact.
Phred
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: RosettaStoned]
#5858624 - 07/14/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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RosettaStoned said: That is NOT a historical fact. It is your opinion. And I dislike it when people try to pass their opinion off as fact. You seem to want to overlook the fact that japan's ability to wage any offensive warfare was diminished to the point of almost non-existence; which the H channel clearly documented. Like I said in an earlier post here, weather the bomb use was justified is based on your point of view. Weather the war was already won is not based on point of view, it is fact. I'm not outright saying that using the bomb was a mistake, I'm simply pointing out it wasn't "necessary to end the war". Did it shorten it? Perhaps. Did it prevent more loss of american lives? Perhaps, but at what cost? Did we really "need" unconditional surrender from japan? Would surrender with terms not have worked just as well? We'll never know.
It is most certainly not cut and dry as you try to make it. And it is a point which will continue to be debated further for many centuries to come, provided there are still intellectuals left to discuss it.
It is not my opinion. Read "Japan's Longest Day: The Pacific War Research Society" The most striking information which I'm asuming they withheld from the THC show is what we had no way of knowing about the workings of Japan's government in the final days. Without that information dropping the bombs were damn good decisions for a variety of reasons. In hindsight with that information it was one of the best decisions the US ever made. It is not my opinion.
It is a very good read. You will enjoy it and learn a lot at the same time.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
Edited by d33p (07/14/06 05:04 PM)
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RosettaStoned
Stranger

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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: Phred]
#5860679 - 07/15/06 03:33 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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You really need to do more research on this than just recalling what you thought you saw on a single television program
Nice assumption. I merely stated that was what that one show said, not that it was my only source of information on the subject.
Quote:
Japan was NOT on the verge of surrender
Correction: They were not on the verge of unconditional surrender. They were considering terms to end the hostilities because they were crawling back the mainland on their bellies and had no fuel left for jack shit and no navy left at all. Tell me exactly how they were going to fight us off with a) no fuel b) no navy and c) do so while getting the shit bombed out of you?
Main Entry: un·con·di·tion·al Pronunciation: "&n-k&n-'dish-n&l, -'di-sh&-n&l Function: adjective 1 : not conditional or limited : ABSOLUTE, UNQUALIFIED <unconditional surrender> <unconditional love>
This is what they weren't willing to do, however they were already beaten before the bombs were dropped. When an army has lost the ability to wage war they are beaten it is as simple as that. No matter how you try to pass your opinion off as fact, the facts show they already had gotten their asses kicked. Dropping the bomb was a short cut to save more american lives at the costs of massive japanese casualties. Would more bombing runs on their major cities been enough without dropping the a-bomb? Would a show of force by dropping the a-bomb in a not so populated area have worked? These are serious questions that can be asked. But the fact that the japanese army was beaten back and beaten down is NOT arguable.
-------------------- "Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson "Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa
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quiver
freedrug


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: RosettaStoned]
#5860700 - 07/15/06 03:51 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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your replies are idiotic they were stealing everything and making pows do all the work for them while at the same time starving and brutalising them to death
are you north korean?
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: quiver]
#5861167 - 07/15/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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No flaming in PAL. Enjoy your one day vacation.
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d33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: RosettaStoned]
#5861711 - 07/15/06 12:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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RosettaStoned said: Correction: They were not on the verge of unconditional surrender. They were considering terms to end the hostilities because they were crawling back the mainland on their bellies and had no fuel left for jack shit and no navy left at all. Tell me exactly how they were going to fight us off with a) no fuel b) no navy and c) do so while getting the shit bombed out of you?
Main Entry: un·con·di·tion·al Pronunciation: "&n-k&n-'dish-n&l, -'di-sh&-n&l Function: adjective 1 : not conditional or limited : ABSOLUTE, UNQUALIFIED <unconditional surrender> <unconditional love>
This is what they weren't willing to do, however they were already beaten before the bombs were dropped. When an army has lost the ability to wage war they are beaten it is as simple as that. No matter how you try to pass your opinion off as fact, the facts show they already had gotten their asses kicked. Dropping the bomb was a short cut to save more american lives at the costs of massive japanese casualties. Would more bombing runs on their major cities been enough without dropping the a-bomb? Would a show of force by dropping the a-bomb in a not so populated area have worked? These are serious questions that can be asked. But the fact that the japanese army was beaten back and beaten down is NOT arguable.
Half of the Supreme War Council and most of the foreign office and envoys wanted to end the war, even unconditionally, but they had no way of doing so. But you don't understand a damn thing about what was happening in the japanese government in August 1945, do you?
They were not crawling back to the mainland. They were saving, amassing, and waiting for the final battle in which many expected to fight till the last man. Much of the Japanese military idolized Okinawa and were hoping the battle for the mainland if needed would be fought as honorously. But, half of the supreme war council did not expect this would even need to happen. They actually believed that the usa would allow Japan to retain its government and independence if it were clear that the cost of a mainland invasion would be too high. Coupled with this, they knew the Americans would not want the soviets overtaking all the land in the Asian mainland that the Japanese had conquered and they thought this would also lead to their chance at independence.
No fuel, are you fucking kidding me? Who fed you this load of bullshit? The Japanese had all the aviation gasoline on the home islands in august they needed for ketsu-go. The japanese were planning to send about 5,000 suicide aircraft at the expected american invasion fleet. They were not expecting to win, they only expected to make victory so hard and costly that the americans would decide to just allow them to have independence. Most other vechicles that required fuel were modified to run on pine root oil(they even started making jet fuel from this, its quite interesting) and alcohol. And they didnt give a fuck about a navy, they lost the sea battle, but they were still expecting to stalemate the battle of Japan.
Main Entry: jack·shit Pronunciation: "jack-shit" Function: noun 1 : what Rosettastone knows about how the imperial japanese government operated: nothing, nada <Rosettastone knows jackshit about VJ-day>
They had not lost their ability to wage a defensive war. Their stockpiles and twisted core beliefs about honor were all that they needed to resist the invasion. The war needed to end to prevent monumental loss of life in an invasion and to prevent the soviets from over running most of mainland asia. Even with both a-bombs and the last raid, Japan may still have refused surrender or the coup may have succeded had it not been for translators in the foreign office intentionally mistranslating the formal note of surrender and the byrnes reply. You have no idea how close the war was to not ending. But the fact remains, as evidenced in JLD, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the turning point for Hirihito's position on surrender.
Read the god damn book or you will continue to think all of these things that are completely fucking wrong. I take it you are afriad of learning something new or to find out you were wrong about this?
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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RosettaStoned
Stranger

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Re: Tuesday terror: Six blasts rock Mumbai railway statio, as long as it furthers there cause....ns [Re: d33p]
#5862399 - 07/15/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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With the capture of Saipan, Japan was finally within range of B-29 bombers.
The Japanese had prepared a rigorous defense and used the last of their naval forces in a failed attempt to destroy the invasion force in the Battle of Leyte Gulf
Throughout 1944, American submarines and aircraft attacked Japanese merchant shipping and deprived Japan's industry of the raw materials it had gone to war to obtain. The effectiveness of this stranglehold increased as U.S. Marines captured islands closer to the Japanese mainland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II#Pacific_Theatre_3
I guess I shouldn't have said "no fuel". But they had little of it compared to the US. What the H channel show had pointed out about the fuel situation, was that we bombed their major fuel depot on the mainland and sunk their last ocean going tanker coming to resupply. Thus they were very hard pressed in the fuel department and a few more well placed B2 runs and there wouldn't have been anything left to be effective at even kamazee.
All of their bases were within B2 bombing range, how long would it have taken to deprive them of the planes they had left? Look, we all know they were willing to fight to the last man. I'm not denying this. All I'm saying is that there are facts that show the japanese ability to fight was greatly diminished and in some cases non-existent. Bombing them into submission with conventional bombs was not out of the realm of possibility.
And yes I also know about their war counsel and most of them did not want to surrender under our terms. But eventually they did didn't they? Because of the a-bomb. Like I said, it was a shortcut to end the war. Any other means of ending the war would have taken longer. But I am inclined to believe that conventional bombing could have had the same effect given some time. Not to mention dropping the a-bomb in a less populated area would certainly had made it clear we could drop one in tokyo. Which would have had the same result without the massive slaughter.
But I guess this subject is quite old so we are beating the dead horse so to speak. The a-bombs usage will always be remembered as what we did to end the war to save more american lives. It's necessity and their choice of targets will continue to be a point of debate weather certain people want to deny that or not.
-------------------- "Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson "Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa
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