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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5845801 - 07/11/06 06:07 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Nice post Markos, my bday is this week too.

I think that learning to have lucid dreams is the key to surviving death.
As J.A. West puts it; "Learn to maintain a certain continuity of consciousness."

Maybe the Ba (heart) weighed against the feather represents self-awareness, more than thoughts or deeds.

I think that magnetic locality influences the process of dying as well as dreaming,
as most of the ancient fractal star map sites are known to be places of birthing and death.

I am still trying to understand the connection between DNA, the Soul, and Stars...


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5845867 - 07/11/06 07:05 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Has anyone ever done what Ram Dass suggested one do (psychedelics implied) - lying down and pretending that this is your time to die.




A couple days after reading The Psychedelic Experience a few times through during my sophomore year in college I did exactly that, and though it wasn't my Big Trip (it followed the next week), I feel strongly this experiment was the precursor. I dosed 4 hits of blotter, locked my door, unplugged my phone, turned off the light, got in bed, and closed my eyes. Upon closing my eyes I sort of idled out with a belief that I was waiting for a cue to instruct me further and was swept away with introspection for some many moments before it dawned on me that I had an experiment sitting on the back burner! I fell into this pattern more than a handful of times, though through the repition there was less latency in recognizing the pattern and resistance in releasing it. I realized the notion that I was waiting for cues amounted to not paying attention. I began to become aware of the matrix of interdependent sensory organs that my awareness moved through as they began to get a word in edge wise as the gravitational field of awareness was no longer fixated in my head/thoughts anymore. Some of sensations were pleasurable and some were fatigued and sore, and my awareness traveled through these body locations one at a time and its presence allowed them to become limp and heavy and relaxed like you hear in reference to hypnosis. I remember feeling my breath become slower and lighter and my heart rate slowing down a sense of bliss was circulating through my body that kept soaring off charts with intensity, and we're talking raw data downloads of bliss so previously inconceivable that a line had been blurred between fantasy and reality, simulating leaving the body and really leaving the body for good. I wasn't frightened, but that capped my ascention for the evening. It opened my eyes in another half hour feeling as if though my body had gotten the most restful sleep in its life and my mind felt so awake and rejuvinated. I remember taking a walk outside my friend Jeff who had been trying to get me to take interest into Eastern mysticism for months cried out to me "BACK FROM THE DEAD!!!" and a sense of eerie wonder creeped over me and replied "Wha?!?!?!?" and he laughed and said he just hadn't seen me for a couple weeks was all.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: Middleman]
    #5845873 - 07/11/06 07:15 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Nice post Markos, my bday is this week too.




Hmmm, what? Was it literally your B-day Mr. Markos?


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: Viveka]
    #5846263 - 07/11/06 11:55 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Reading your response, I see much in agreement between us, but I also perceive a departure. We are living in a temple, and it is our body. The finite is an "image and likeness" of God in Biblical writ, and of 'Cosmic Man [generic]' called Adam Kadmon in Kabbalism. In the Kargyutpa school of Vajrayana Buddhism, the building called a 'stupa' is a representation of the five chakras (Buddhism combines upper two and lower two) and the three realms of Earth, Man and Heaven. The chakras or psychic centers are points in form wherein 'psychocosmic' forces interface with the psychospiritual human being. So form me, entering into form opens up into the Formless if one enters in at a portal.

You are quite right about silence with regard to the Experiences. Words are not capable vehicles except in the sense of 'seed syllables' - mantric sounds that may symbolize or even reproduce the 'sound' quality of certain states of being (as Terrence McKenna was discovering in the jungle on DMT substances). Christian hymns may convey more with the 'AH' sound in a long 'Amen' than in the verbal content of the entire hymn. Gregorian chants may convey the same sound qualities that Vajrayana mantras do, but the abstract sound quality belongs to actual Latin words. Like my earlier assertion of finding it impossible to experience pure Identity (Ontos, Being) without associations to real attributes, a hymn or a Gregorian chant may embody abstract 'seed syllables' in the 'form' of actual words. Christianity of course so merges the abstract Christ with the concrete form of Jesus, that one must learn to discern the 'spirit from the soul' in these matters. We can be "in Christ," but we cannot be 'in Jesus.'

I am not sure what you meant by not modelling the Infinite on the finite, but the interface is constant. Personally, I believe that God (Pure Being) creates, sustains and destroys creation continually (as the Hindus represent in their trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva). Kabbalistically, our bodies and senses draw existence from the Kabbalistic sphere of Malkuth [Kingdom], our 'soul' telescopes up drawing from three further spheres, and our 'spirit' emerges from three higher yet. Above our 'spirit' is Divinity in three uppermost spheres on the glyph of the Tree of Life, and above that, the Godhead.

The point here is that the Formless creates/emanates form. Ontos begets Existence, and we are beings created at the interface of Heaven and Earth, so-to-speak. Aldous Huxley said our mind [i.e., soul] was "amphibious," and can choose to identify with the physical realm or the spiritual realm. However, we must come to terms with both realms, and learn to slide the emphasis closer to the spiritual as we approach 'discorporation.' Not knowing when that moment will come, we must exercise our ability to Identify with the Highest at any given moment if we remain in the world. Sitting in an outer temple or monastery, one tries to remain out of the body constantly, but to be in the world and in the body, it seems that we need to "Be Prepared" as the Boy Scout motto says.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5846424 - 07/11/06 12:55 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Twice, after recklessly high doses of tranquilizers combined with marijuana, I seriously thought I was about to die. There was no doubt in my mind that quite soon, my breathing was going to stop entirely. I was surprisingly accepting of this fact. The idea of death, at the time, didn't seem frightening at all. Unfortunately, all the drugs really skewed my perception of these two NDEs. Whether I would've experienced the same emotional state during a sober NDE, I cannot say.

Fear of death made sense to me when I was a Christian. (A period of my life I like to refer to as "The Dark Ages.") Since, as a naughty naturally-born-to-sin being, I was constantly afraid of not meeting God's quota. Hell didn't sound like much fun. But, as a materialist, I now have a hard time understanding how nihilation of the self could be scary. At first, soon after switching perspectives, "Oh noes! I'm not going to exist anymore!" was a troubling thought. Luckily, eventually, this thought vanished along with my addiction to the self. Nothing else is permanent, why should I expect myself to be?

I see myself as a unique and temporary phenomena. Although I may prefer to live for a thousand years, I have no aspirations for immortality. Being able to briefly participate in existence seems fulfilling enough for me.




YOU were born.

People sometimes ignore this part of life when they factor in death.

They think "oh you die".

Yes, you die. You are also born. The ego doesn't sustain consciousness along for the rides.... so in essence you are right, you won't be here anymore. But there will always be a you that exists in some fundamental way, with differing levels of consciousness, always something that is passed on. This is because consciousness always exists, somewhere, in some time, in some conceivable dimension, because it exists right now.

Look at delta sleep. Delta sleep is very close, brainwave wise, to death... and yet our consciousness persists upon staying integrated so much so that we go into a dreamstate until we wake up again.

The dreamstate is a clear indication that after the initial sleep of death, whatever you have colored all over yourself will randomly piece itself back together into something new. You will wake up eventually.

To me anyway.

The fact that you can be born implies that you can be again.
Quote:

Jinx said:
Nice post Markos, my bday is this week too.

I think that learning to have lucid dreams is the key to surviving death.
As J.A. West puts it; "Learn to maintain a certain continuity of consciousness."

Maybe the Ba (heart) weighed against the feather represents self-awareness, more than thoughts or deeds.

I think that magnetic locality influences the process of dying as well as dreaming,
as most of the ancient fractal star map sites are known to be places of birthing and death.

I am still trying to understand the connection between DNA, the Soul, and Stars...



mmmm i think conscious deep sleep is the ultimate liberation, lucid dreams a way of perhaps circumventing rebirth, but conscious deep sleep being complete mastery of continual awareness, even where there is no longer self.

from a lucid dream you would have to back-pedal, if you were dead, into the voidness of being if you didn't want to reincarnate... plop down and meditate away........ which is advised in the psychedelic experience/tibetan book of the dead on if you should find yourself in the lower bardos.
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
"BACK FROM THE DEAD!!!" and a sense of eerie wonder creeped over me and replied "Wha?!?!?!?" and he laughed and said he just hadn't seen me for a couple weeks was all.



lol.

synchrony is amazing like that!


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (07/11/06 12:56 PM)


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OfflineViveka
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5846576 - 07/11/06 01:35 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I think I should place my statement about modelling infinite on finite in a bit more of a context. One of the things that intrigues me the most about my perception is how certain proportions are found everywhere and repeat at different scales within an organism. Have you ever seen a picture of some part of a human body and thought you were seeing something else, for instance seeing a crease of the hand and thought you were seeing part of the abdomen, or shoulder instead of thigh? Or a dog lying in a certain position but you thought you were looking at a completely different side of it, until your perception is adjusted enough so you recognize the blunder? I don't trust my perception enough to know if this phenomenon is a residual effect of past flawed perception, or if it is purely an observation of golden mean expressed throughout the organism, probably a bit of both.

But then of course there are the observable similarities between the way mountains form and the way trees grow. And the same patterns that govern how those trees roots descend into the earth can be observed in how stars are scattered through space. Surely this is all constant evidence that all things are somehow alike, the same, at least in the observable universe. Again, another disconnect occurs in my mind because I am not certain that because something is expressed in the observable Universe, that it is an expression of infinity. Perhaps the only reason that something has descended to the level of physical phenomenon is because it is somehow out of step with infinity. Or perhaps my idea that that could be so is a result of my awareness being tainted by noise and intellectual reaction, betrayal of silence.

I guess the real sentiment behind my statement that the infinite should not be modelled on the finite is the realization that the map is not the territory. No matter how many ways we can observe that "as above, so below", these are still just maps and models for something that is infinitely unmappable, and unknowable from our current perspective. And, as much as I seem to condemn maps here, I am very intrigued by Kabbalism and Tree of Life symbology. For several years now I have desired to have a tangible understanding of this system, but have not taken it upon myself to study it, perhaps to avoid confounding my mind even further.


Edited by Viveka (07/11/06 01:41 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: Viveka]
    #5847016 - 07/11/06 03:37 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)



If you decide to read a book on Kabbalism, let me recommend this one for under $5. I have between 40 and 50 books on the subject and this little book is the most clear and even illustrates the most accurate parallel with the Hindu Yogic centers. Certain central themes are explained including the piercing of the Veil of Paroketh, which means realizing one's essential nature as being spirit as opposed to the natural identity of being an embodied personality that has a spirit. It is moving from the 'Astral Triangle' to the 'Ethical Triangle.' Associated with this movement is the Sacred Marriage of Sun and Moon - Tiphereth and Yesod - which (like Hatha Yoga, Ha=Sun, tha=moon) effects an inner Union as well as an outer Union between couples.

You may appreciate the levels of mathematical subtlety more than I have the capacity to. The 10 spheres emanate and separate from Absolute Being and its integrated opposite Absolute Nothing (like spots of an Unknown Substance separating out on a strip of column chromatography paper Perhaps you'll appreciate the chemical metaphor as well  :wink:).


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5847678 - 07/11/06 06:47 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I get the impression that people like to control the ideas in their heads too much
it is like sticking one's head in a bucket.
unique clues are all around and within all the time
dance.
live.
take heads out of the death bucket.




I agree 100% with you on this one red.  :thumbup:


--------------------


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: Basilides]
    #5847872 - 07/11/06 07:49 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Someone once asked a Zen master, "What happens when you die?"
The Zen master responded, "I don't know."
The person then replied, "You don't know? But, aren't you a Zen master?"
He replied, "Yes, but I'm not a dead Zen master!"


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5848170 - 07/11/06 08:53 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Now that's hardcore zen!

:grin:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5850119 - 07/12/06 10:30 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I don't really know what "happens" after death.. but alot of people in this world seem pretty sure, whether religious fundamentalists who without a doubt expect somekind of earthly paradise or pearly white gates, or materialists who without a doubt expect non-being. As Markos said, we are compelled to accept pure ideas that are more allegorical than reality (such as visions of sex at death). Various mythologies also highlight the experience of death as a re-establishment of identity (following the death of the original personality) into the fullness of ultimate reality. I don't expect my personality to be dragged into eternity, as I don't believe individualism can exist in the Holy of Holies. The most humble of expectations have come from mystics, whether Rumi (who contended that "there is no salvation except to fall in love) or Boehme (the increased glory that is man becoming love through his personality). What does it feel like to be formless? I don't know entirely, but discorporated mystical experiences give me a very vivid glimpse of what Holy Simplicity is like, with the finality of it to reappear completely frozen and suspended in the Holy Reality, while the body-mind-personality is eaten by larvae worms..

The Zen master's body hasn't died yet, but I doubt he's going down with his ship (body/temple).


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5850191 - 07/12/06 11:06 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I think there is a strong link between death and the psychedelic experience. I've contemplated my own death many times. But it's not so much the experience of death that I fear. Rather, I fear dying before I have the chance to fulfill my purpose here on Earth.


--------------------


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: Basilides]
    #5850511 - 07/12/06 01:19 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Cool!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5850525 - 07/12/06 01:27 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Rather, I fear dying before I have the chance to fulfill my purpose here on Earth.




Each moment is the fufillment of purpose. You cannot fufill "more" purpose. You can, however, bring more awareness into one's purpose. :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5850536 - 07/12/06 01:32 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Do you have something in mind that you believe to be central to your purpose in this life? That I am a being who asks the question about purpose makes me a philosopher (Freud would say a neurotic), and that has come to be about as purposeful as I can come up with. I mean, I suppose that identifying oneself as a philosopher (schooled or unschooled) means that one is an 'example' of a 'deeper' (less shallow-minded) human being - one who can [bracket] one's sensory experiences of life as but one (howsoever predominant) mode of knowing.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5850577 - 07/12/06 01:46 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Do you have something in mind that you believe to be central to your purpose in this life?



When I had that acid trip where I saw Jesus and was filled with the Holy Spirit, I asked Christ to let me be the vehicle through which he could end world poverty. I feel that I have a covenant, and I fear dying before I can at least make some of the necessary steps to fulfill it.


--------------------


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5850613 - 07/12/06 02:02 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

OK. That's a pretty tall order. Perhaps gaining entrance into, and rising in the Bill Gates Foundation for example, linking wealthy philanthropists together? Just a thought. Jesus said: "For ye have the poor with you always..." (Mark 14:7) which may be a statement of the human condition for all time. It's a relative statement of course - Hugh Hefner might be considered to be poor relative to Bill Gates, and I have found people living hand-to-mouth who didn't realize they were dirt poor.

Perhaps you should teach the world how to end starvation instead. Food is more immediate than money. Sometimes the spiritual impulse is strong and the interpretation needs to be tweaked, but it was your Experience. People generally know what to do with food but the same thing cannot be said for money. Many if not most people become completely stupid when given money.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5850651 - 07/12/06 02:17 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
dying before I have the chance to fulfill my purpose here on Earth.



if every internet user in north america gave a meager $40 a YEAR starvation would be eliminated, perhaps you could work on telling people that?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (07/12/06 02:21 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: leery11]
    #5850668 - 07/12/06 02:23 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
dying before I have the chance to fulfill my purpose here on Earth.



if every internet user in north america gave a meager $40 a YEAR starvation would be eliminated, perhaps you could work on telling people that?



No, it's not about charity. It's about changing the way our society is structured. I already have it mostly figured out as far as how it can be done. The problem is going to be getting my message heard by the right people.


--------------------


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Enlightenment, Self-Realization, Gnosis, Liberation...Who Cares?! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5851110 - 07/12/06 04:54 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

exactly

you could have all the right answers, and no one would ever listen to you.


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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