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Invisiblebcfresh

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 61
Quinoa//Tryptophan -- Solubility in water...
    #5839023 - 07/09/06 02:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

As I understand, the grain quinoa is full of tryptophan, which is converted to psilocybin somewhere along the growing process(by the mycellium I guess?)if used as a substrate for inoculation(ie the alien tek).

My question then, is, if anyone knows or knows where I can find out if the tryptophan in quinoa is water-soluble and @ what degree. Wouldn't it be grand if you could just soak some grains in a pot of water for a day and water your crop with an enhanced water made to make your shroomies more potent.

Also, if its not water soluble, what about alcohol?

Is it safe to water your bed with alcohol?

I'm sure lots of others have thought of this..anybody have any links to lead me in the right direction?


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bcf


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Quinoa//Tryptophan -- Solubility in water... [Re: bcfresh]
    #5839031 - 07/09/06 02:39 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i'm going to assume it's not water-soluble, in fact, it's probably oil-soluble. Which means you could extract it with alcohol, unfortunately, ethanol/methanol are bad for growing mushies... so i'm going to say NO.

also, it would have to be present during incubation, not spraying it on while it's fruiting.

what you might be able to do, is double-boil some quinoa in cooking oil, make a nasty broth or paste out of that, and then use a little of that in each jar. but using quinoa WHOLE in your substrate would work just fine if not better anyways.

rarrrrr


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InvisibleUnderNose
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Re: Quinoa//Tryptophan -- Solubility in water... [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5839038 - 07/09/06 02:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

use seaweed extract. all kinds of useful fertilizers. nitrogen is good for potency, there is a lot of that in h/poo

(pictures thanks to otto :thumbup:)

I use this in my casings,
And also I dilute it and mist the casings after each flush with it.
So when I am re hydrating the casings they are getting extra nutrients


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LAGM 2.022

:dna::dna:


Edited by UnderNose (07/09/06 02:47 PM)


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Quinoa//Tryptophan -- Solubility in water... [Re: UnderNose]
    #5839103 - 07/09/06 02:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Soluability in water = 1.06 g/dL @ 20°C

You also might find this interesting...



-FF


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Invisiblebcfresh

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 61
Re: Quinoa//Tryptophan -- Solubility in water... [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5839108 - 07/09/06 03:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the info guys

Quote:

liamtheloser said:
i'm going to assume it's not water-soluble, in fact, it's probably oil-soluble. Which means you could extract it with alcohol, unfortunately, ethanol/methanol are bad for growing mushies... so i'm going to say NO.




What if you extracted the active ingredients from quinoa and then reduced this "tincture" to crystal form? Not that I could do that, but anyways

Quote:

also, it would have to be present during incubation, not spraying it on while it's fruiting.




I meant using this water to hydrate an outdoor bed/casing. Why does it have to be present during incubation? If the mycellium is growing all over and outdoor bed, its still growing just as if it were in a jar. Unless your saying the spores germinating is what causes the "absorption" of the tryptophan, I dont see why not.


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bcf


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Quinoa//Tryptophan -- Solubility in water... [Re: fastfred]
    #5839120 - 07/09/06 03:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> Wouldn't it be grand if you could just soak some grains in a pot of water for a day and water your crop with an enhanced water made to make your shroomies more potent.

Not a bad idea.  However tryptophan synthesis/absorption is probably not the limiting factor.  Tryptophan decarboxylase is probably the limiting factor.  Tryptamine has been shown to increase the potency greatly however and tryptophan is only 1 step away from tryptamine.

Also I'll start your rating off with  :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: for bringing up one of my more favorite topics.  I'm still waiting for someone to put me in my place here chemistry wise, I know there are people here who could do it too. :smile:


-FF


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Quinoa//Tryptophan -- Solubility in water... [Re: fastfred]
    #5839143 - 07/09/06 03:08 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> i'm going to assume it's not water-soluble, in fact, it's probably oil-soluble.

I guess assuming made an ass out of you!  JK  :wink:


It's actually quite water soluable.  1.06 g/dL @ 20°C (dL = 100 mL)

= 10.6 g/L @ 20C


-FF


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Invisiblebcfresh

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 61
Re: Quinoa//Tryptophan -- Solubility in water... [Re: bcfresh]
    #5839147 - 07/09/06 03:08 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks fred! Just what I was looking for. Now to do some testing...
Anybody have any predictions...will the mycellium absorb the tryptophan from the quinoa-water? Anybody ever done this before?

Much thanks again
:laugh:


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bcf


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Quinoa//Tryptophan -- Solubility in water... [Re: bcfresh]
    #5839166 - 07/09/06 03:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think anyone's done much research on it. People do grow on quinoa though. There's only one way to find out.

Actually wait, I remember a reference on radiolabeled tryptophan incorporation. Hmm... It was in a post in advanced. It is incorportated somewhat, to it must be able to be absorbed. I'll see if I can find the reference.


-FF


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Quinoa//Tryptophan -- Solubility in water... [Re: fastfred]
    #5839278 - 07/09/06 03:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Ha! Found it...

Code:

Incorporation of Labelled Precursors into Psilocybin
-----------------------------------------------------

"Dilution"
(Spec. activity of precursor/
Precursor introduced spec. activity of psilocybin)
------------------------------------------------------
L-Tryptophan-H^3 132
Tryptamine-C^14 33
N-Methyltryptamine-H^3 2
N,N-Dimethyltryptamine-C^14 31
Psilocin-H^3 6
DL-4-OH-Tryptophan-H^3 >500
------------------------------------------------------

The results (Table) show that 4—OH-tryptophan in contrast to tryptophan
(I) does not function as a precursor. Tryptamine (II) which is readily
formed from tryptophan by P. cubensis (3) serves as a better precursor of
psilocybin than tryptophan. N—Methyltryptamine (III) is a still better
progenitor of psilocybin but N,N-dimethyltryptamine (IV) is rather poorly
incorporated as judged from the dilution figures. However, if the poor
absorption of this compound by the fungus (less than 5%) is taken into
account, the high dilution factor does not make it an unlikely
intermediate. Psilocin (V) is effectively converted into psilocybin.
4-Hydroxytryptamine—C^14 is also incorporated into psilocybin but the
introduction of this compound led to the formation of one or two other
minor products not normally detectable in the cultures. Thus, it may be
questioned if this route via 4-hydroxytryptamine is normally occuring in
the fungus.




Hope this helps...


-FF


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Quinoa//Tryptophan -- Solubility in water... [Re: fastfred]
    #5839297 - 07/09/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

dayamN!  i got pwned :frown:

haha, nah, i assumed it was oil soluble just because i've seen quinoa oil at the hippie co-op.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Quinoa//Tryptophan -- Solubility in water... [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5839337 - 07/09/06 04:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

With two nitrogens and a carboxyl group it's probably not soluable in non-polar substances. It probably also has quite a bit of hydrogen bonding going on.


-FF


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Invisiblebcfresh

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 61
Re: Quinoa//Tryptophan -- Solubility in water... [Re: fastfred]
    #5841422 - 07/10/06 05:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Tryptamine (II) which is readily formed from tryptophan by P. cubensis (3) serves as a better precursor of psilocybin than tryptophan




Hmmmmm..:mushroom2: I wonder what kind of stuff is chalk full of 100% tryptamine

Quote:

N—Methyltryptamine (III) is a still better
progenitor of psilocybin




Mimosa bark anyone? Is this stuff water soluble? I'm going to say yes :wink:
This is so great.

Quote:

Psilocin[b/] (V) is effectively converted into psilocybin.




'Could even use a previous batch of shroomies to make a new bed.  :shocked:

Quote:

4-Hydroxytryptamine—C^14 is also incorporated into psilocybin but the
introduction of this compound led to the formation of one or two other
minor products not normally detectable in the cultures. Thus, it may be
questioned if this route via 4-hydroxytryptamine is normally occuring in
the fungus.





Trippy... "Minor products not normally detectable in the cultures"... Whats that supposed to mean! I wonder what they are..

Thanks a lot for the help and the links fred. I'll keep the forum updated when I test some of these ideas out. Although it seems to have the least likely effect, I'm going to go with quinoa due to its availability vs.the other contenders. What a (hopefully) simple method to bring the potency up. I'm excited with just the concepts.

Thanks again


--------------------
bcf


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