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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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FBI plans new Net-tapping push
    #5839020 - 07/09/06 02:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

By Declan McCullagh
Staff Writer, CNET News.com

Published: July 7, 2006, 6:47 PM PDT

The FBI has drafted sweeping legislation that would require Internet service providers to create wiretapping hubs for police surveillance and force makers of networking gear to build in backdoors for eavesdropping, CNET News.com has learned.

FBI Agent Barry Smith distributed the proposal at a private meeting last Friday with industry representatives and indicated it would be introduced by Sen. Mike DeWine, an Ohio Republican, according to two sources familiar with the meeting.

The draft bill would place the FBI's Net-surveillance push on solid legal footing. At the moment, it's ensnared in a legal challenge from universities and some technology companies that claim the Federal Communications Commission's broadband surveillance directives exceed what Congress has authorized.

The FBI claims that expanding the 1994 Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act is necessary to thwart criminals and terrorists who have turned to technologies like voice over Internet Protocol, or VoIP.

"The complexity and variety of communications technologies have dramatically increased in recent years, and the lawful intercept capabilities of the federal, state and local law enforcement community have been under continual stress, and in many cases have decreased or become impossible," according to a summary accompanying the draft bill.

Complicating the political outlook for the legislation is an ongoing debate over allegedly illegal surveillance by the National Security Administration--punctuated by several lawsuits challenging it on constitutional grounds and an unrelated proposal to force Internet service providers to record what Americans are doing online. One source, who asked not to be identified because of the sensitive nature of last Friday's meeting, said the FBI viewed its CALEA expansion as a top congressional priority for 2007.

Breaking the legislation down
The 27-page proposed CALEA amendments seen by CNET News.com would:

• Require any manufacturer of "routing" and "addressing" hardware to offer upgrades or other "modifications" that are needed to support Internet wiretapping. Current law does require that of telephone switch manufacturers--but not makers of routers and network address translation hardware like Cisco Systems and 2Wire.

• Authorize the expansion of wiretapping requirements to "commercial" Internet services including instant messaging if the FCC deems it to be in the "public interest." That would likely sweep in services such as in-game chats offered by Microsoft's Xbox 360 gaming system as well.

• Force Internet service providers to sift through their customers' communications to identify, for instance, only VoIP calls. (The language requires companies to adhere to "processing or filtering methods or procedures applied by a law enforcement agency.") That means police could simply ask broadband providers like AT&T, Comcast or Verizon for wiretap info--instead of having to figure out what VoIP service was being used.

• Eliminate the current legal requirement saying the Justice Department must publish a public "notice of the actual number of communications interceptions" every year. That notice currently also must disclose the "maximum capacity" required to accommodate all of the legally authorized taps that government agencies will "conduct and use simultaneously."

Jim Harper, a policy analyst at the free-market Cato Institute and member of a Homeland Security advisory board, said the proposal would "have a negative impact on Internet users' privacy."

"People expect their information to be private unless the government meets certain legal standards," Harper said. "Right now the Department of Justice is pushing the wrong way on all this."

Neither the FBI nor DeWine's office responded to a request for comment Friday afternoon.

DeWine has relatively low approval ratings--47 percent, according to SurveyUSA.com--and is enmeshed in a fierce battle with a Democratic challenger to retain his Senate seat in the November elections. DeWine is a member of a Senate Judiciary subcommittee charged with overseeing electronic privacy and antiterrorism enforcement and is a former prosecutor in Ohio.

A panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington, D.C., decided 2-1 last month to uphold the FCC's extension of CALEA to broadband providers, and it's not clear what will happen next with the lawsuit. Judge Harry Edwards wrote in his dissent that the majority's logic gave the FCC "unlimited authority to regulate every telecommunications service that might conceivably be used to assist law enforcement."

The organizations behind the lawsuit say Congress never intended CALEA to force broadband providers--and networks at corporations and universities--to build in central surveillance hubs for the police. The list of organizations includes Sun Microsystems, Pulver.com, the American Association of Community Colleges, the Association of American Universities and the American Library Association.

If the FBI's legislation becomes law, it would derail the lawsuit because there would no longer be any question that Congress intended CALEA to apply to the Internet.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5839173 - 07/09/06 03:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

if dewine had his way..he would draught the following one-line constitutional amendment ..

Quote:

the fourth article of amendment to the united states constitution is hearby repealed




and he prolly will have the opportunity to do so too..with polls showing the majority overwhelmingly supporting unrestricted surveillance...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5839203 - 07/09/06 03:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Since when did the FBI draftl egislation?


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Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: David_vs_Goliath]
    #5839290 - 07/09/06 03:50 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

If you are not a terrorist or criminal, then you have nothing to worry about, right?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5839377 - 07/09/06 04:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

mabey my country going down the shitter? our democracy is falling fast


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5839385 - 07/09/06 04:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
If you are not a terrorist or criminal, then you have nothing to worry about, right?




I am so saddened by attitudes like this. Why in hell do we need to have a fucking govt looking over our damn shoulder?! It should not matter weather you have a damn thing to hide or not! Govt monitoring of it's citizens is total fucking bullshit. They are suppose to have to get a warrant to go through our private affairs, not data mine for dirt to charge who ever falls in the damn net.

The US govt is systematically dismantling the role of the courts by actions like this. Why bother having a forth amendment at all? Lets just put cameras in our living rooms to watch our every move. Why not? If you have nothing to hide then you shouldn't object to it. /sarcasm off


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


Edited by RosettaStoned (07/09/06 04:19 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5839408 - 07/09/06 04:27 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RosettaStoned said:
Why in hell do we need to have a fucking govt looking over our damn shoulder?!




Because some of "us" are evil scumbags who don't exactly wear "I am an evil scumbag" badges. Capisce?


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Offlinetoastandjam
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5839577 - 07/09/06 05:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xDuckYouSuckerx said:
Since when did the FBI draftl egislation?




That's an excellent point. All they have to do is find someone(s) in the right places to introduce legislation by proxy, as is the case here. Infiltrate their own government with agents?

"FBI Agent Barry Smith distributed the proposal at a private meeting last Friday with industry representatives and indicated it would be introduced by Sen. Mike DeWine, an Ohio Republican, according to two sources familiar with the meeting."


--------------------
Q: We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons... and for one brief moment, you did.
PICARD: When I realized the paradox...
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you'd never considered. That's the exploration that awaits you...not mapping stars and studying nebulae... but charting the unknowable possibilities of existence.

To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening. -Dogen Zenji


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5839827 - 07/09/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Does this mean you don't think the FBI should have the tools it needs to fight the war on terror?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (07/09/06 06:23 PM)


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5839845 - 07/09/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

they should definitely not be given such tools..because the war on terror is a class war being waged by the rich against the poor...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5839885 - 07/09/06 06:40 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I suppose it is true that most terrorists are poor.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5839924 - 07/09/06 06:49 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
they should definitely not be given such tools..because the war on terror is a class war being waged by the rich against the poor...




See my sig for anna's position on the war on terror. It is a 100% acurate quote.


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Offlinefreedomislost
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5839973 - 07/09/06 07:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Also we should have to put cameras in our homes at every angle with with FBI access. We should have to turn in statements for everything we buy. Fuck that...... We should call this the war on american freedom.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: freedomislost]
    #5840015 - 07/09/06 07:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

We should have to turn in statements for everything we buy.

No need, Visa and the banks will mail us the statements and probably already copy the government...


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (07/09/06 07:22 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5840024 - 07/09/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The only gummint agency likely to go through your Visa statements is the IRS


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5840047 - 07/09/06 07:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The only gummint agency likely to go through your Visa statements is the IRS

Link or just pure speculation on your part?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5840086 - 07/09/06 07:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

A lifetime of experience.
What makes your paranoid self think that anybody gives a fuck about what you do? What on earth makes you think that there is enough people who can go through this gargantuan amount of info to bother with your, or my, insignificant ass?


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5840163 - 07/09/06 08:08 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
If you are not a terrorist or criminal, then you have nothing to worry about, right?




I'm no terrorist, but if the government keeps shoving its entire populace around, I'm going to get increasingly willing to shove back. And I am not alone.


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5840208 - 07/09/06 08:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What makes your paranoid self think that anybody gives a fuck about what you do?




the fact that they want to data-mine every last fart that comes out of everyones' ass...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Invisible8374837
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5840227 - 07/09/06 08:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

just a few more years untill 1984....


--------------------
"There are three side effects of acid: enhanced long-term memory, decreased short-term memory, and I forget the third."-the man in the middle


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: 8374837]
    #5840842 - 07/09/06 11:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5841227 - 07/10/06 01:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Does this mean you don't think the FBI should have the tools it needs to fight the war on terror?




I think people like you would just as well have a chip gps tracking implant and believe it would be for your "protection". It's damn well obvious this isn't for the war on terror. This is data mining to bust anyone who falls in the net, if it was just for the war on terror they would put a terrorist only prosecution mandate in it, is that there? I don't think so.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5841230 - 07/10/06 01:31 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

RosettaStoned said:
Why in hell do we need to have a fucking govt looking over our damn shoulder?!




Because some of "us" are evil scumbags who don't exactly wear "I am an evil scumbag" badges.  Capisce?




Oh please mr bush, protect me from the evil scumbags what would we ever do with out your wisdom  :rolleyes:

From my view the scumbags are the ones with badges.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


Edited by RosettaStoned (07/10/06 03:10 AM)


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5841590 - 07/10/06 07:30 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think people like you would just as well have a chip gps tracking implant and believe it would be for your "protection".

You seem to somehow "know" a lot about me (are you a psychic?) and my political views from my asking a couple of hypothetical questions designed to create debate.

The fact is that you neither know me nor my political views.

When you assume you make an ass out of u and me.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (07/10/06 07:31 AM)


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OfflineBooby
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5841614 - 07/10/06 07:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
When you assume you make an ass out of u and me.




I've heard that same phrase elsewhere. I assume it's a colloquialism; Does that assumption make us asses? No. What is the intent of that phrase then? (some people have control issues)


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.


Edited by Booby (07/10/06 07:50 AM)


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: Booby]
    #5841635 - 07/10/06 08:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I've heard that same phrase elsewhere. I assume it's a colloquialism; Does that assumption make us asses? No. What is the intent of that phrase then? (some people have control issues)

The phrase means to me that if we jump to conclusions about someone we may judge them wrongly which makes us wrong as well. Of course, the phrase is more catchy and easier to remember than my interpretation.

IMO with most issues things are not nearly as "cut and dried" as many people judge them to be. The truth usually lies somewhere near the middle with most people (at least nowadays) at the far left or far right. The chasm in between is deep and dark...


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineBooby
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5841646 - 07/10/06 08:18 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Sorry to be off-topic but let's clear this up.

LunarEclipse asks a couple of hypothetical questions designed to create debate and then slams someone by judging them to be an ass. Then he/she defends his/her action by claiming defense from judgment. Sorry but it doesn't wash with me; I still think it's a control issue.


--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: Booby]
    #5841732 - 07/10/06 09:12 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think you better get back on topic.


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: Redstorm]
    #5841852 - 07/10/06 09:59 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The real issue the article talks about is our government starting to control the business world as well. Requiring a manufacturer to include a backdoor for the government to look into anyone using their product.

The 27-page proposed CALEA amendments seen by CNET News.com would:

• Require any manufacturer of "routing" and "addressing" hardware to offer upgrades or other "modifications" that are needed to support Internet wiretapping. Current law does require that of telephone switch manufacturers--but not makers of routers and network address translation hardware like Cisco Systems and 2Wire.

• Authorize the expansion of wiretapping requirements to "commercial" Internet services including instant messaging if the FCC deems it to be in the "public interest." That would likely sweep in services such as in-game chats offered by Microsoft's Xbox 360 gaming system as well.


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5842114 - 07/10/06 11:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

When you respond to this as "a tool for the fbi to fight terrorism" one can only think that you agree with every stinking dung pile that drops out the govts ass. This is quite possibly the least likely tool to fight "terror" that they have ever came up with. This net data mining is a tool, but it is a tool to bypass due process and as David_vs_Goliath points out, a tool to strengthen govt control of business under the guise of protection.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


Edited by RosettaStoned (07/10/06 11:35 AM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push *DELETED* [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5842926 - 07/10/06 03:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by zappaisgod

Reason for deletion: Redstorm said to



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OfflineMustNotBe
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5843006 - 07/10/06 03:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Like there is much anyone reading what I am writing right now will make a difference? I am going to have to say that I doubt this bill will be passed though. For the sake of our rights as "Americans"?


--------------------
Junkies United we stand , Devided we're sick as fuck.
-                  -                -
"Hallucinations are something heroin users are not at all accustomed to," said Const. Conor King, Victoria police drug expert. "They react like you or I would react if we took Aspirin and all of a sudden the TV got up and started walking across the room."
-                  -                -
Make drugs legal, or alcohol and tobacco illegal. Either way it's more fair.


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OfflineDavid_vs_Goliath
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: MustNotBe]
    #5843054 - 07/10/06 03:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think most Americans would be happy with this bill, that is what scares me...


--------------------
"People living deeply have no fear of death."
"Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."
"Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5844392 - 07/10/06 09:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"When you respond to this as "a tool for the fbi to fight terrorism" one can only think that you agree with every stinking dung pile that drops out the govts ass. This is quite possibly the least likely tool to fight "terror" that they have ever came up with. This net data mining is a tool, but it is a tool to bypass due process and as David_vs_Goliath points out, a tool to strengthen govt control of business under the guise of protection."

Perhaps I should have put smirk smileys after my questions and you would have known I was being hypothetical or playing devil's advocate or whatever you want to call it.  I am not in support of increased government control of business just for the record.  Does that make me a Republican, because they want less government? :smirk:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (07/10/06 09:12 PM)


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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5844624 - 07/10/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

When the government taps into the communications of such large numbers of people, it is statistically a waste of resources in the detection of terrorists. The numbers of terrorists are so minuscule among the subjects of government spying, that (if in fact the purpose is to catch terrorists) so many false leads will be generated as to overwhelm investigators and send them on wild goose chases, reducing the chances to what is essentially equivalent to random picks from the population at large. Couple this with the fact that anyone of minimal intelligence engaged in a terrorist plot will in fact encrypt their communications, or resort to physical meeting or message drops out of the reach of the eavesdropping of electronic communications and the justification is patently ridiculous.

The only statistically logical reason for such wide nets as we see coming from the administration and their toadies is to detect who in fact are their political opponents and to intimidate them or target them, as political opponents are much more numerous and a greater threat to the powers that currently control our government. I seriously doubt that the sycophantic cheerleaders of the nascent Bush police state would have been happy if Bill and Hillary were engaged in such trolling. I know from past discussions and tuning in to right-wing talk radio, that the vast majority seemed quite displeased with Hillary's access to the paltry 900 plus FBI files and the Clinton administration's targeting of political opponents utilizing the IRS. That they should so blithely dismiss the growing threat of tyranny posed by the Bush administration reeks of self serving, blind allegiance, a total lack of principles, and extreme short-sightedness for the health and longevity of the republic.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5844643 - 07/10/06 10:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

My apologies I will take that into note next time. I didn't not know you was playing devils advocate at all. You simply said, "do you not want the fbi to have tools to fight terror" or something like that. A little smiley face would have helped  :tongue2:

Guess I have been too busy I missed zappa's reply, did I miss getting called any interesting names? I hate to miss zappa's gems of truthiness  :lol:


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5844808 - 07/10/06 10:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"Guess I have been too busy I missed zappa's reply, did I miss getting called any interesting names? I hate to miss zappa's gems of truthiness"

I missed the whole day.  Some of us have to work.

And yes, that zappa is a gem although in a bit of a "rough state".  :grin:


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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5845283 - 07/11/06 12:13 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
When the government taps into the communications of such large numbers of people, it is statistically a waste of resources in the detection of terrorists. The numbers of terrorists are so minuscule among the subjects of government spying, that (if in fact the purpose is to catch terrorists) so many false leads will be generated as to overwhelm investigators and send them on wild goose chases, reducing the chances to what is essentially equivalent to random picks from the population at large. Couple this with the fact that anyone of minimal intelligence engaged in a terrorist plot will in fact encrypt their communications, or resort to physical meeting or message drops out of the reach of the eavesdropping of electronic communications and the justification is patently ridiculous.

The only statistically logical reason for such wide nets as we see coming from the administration and their toadies is to detect who in fact are their political opponents and to intimidate them or target them, as political opponents are much more numerous and a greater threat to the powers that currently control our government. I seriously doubt that the sycophantic cheerleaders of the nascent Bush police state would have been happy if Bill and Hillary were engaged in such trolling. I know from past discussions and tuning in to right-wing talk radio, that the vast majority seemed quite displeased with Hillary's access to the paltry 900 plus FBI files and the Clinton administration's targeting of political opponents utilizing the IRS. That they should so blithely dismiss the growing threat of tyranny posed by the Bush administration reeks of self serving, blind allegiance, a total lack of principles, and extreme short-sightedness for the health and longevity of the republic.




thats almost the same idea as outlawing guns to keep them out of the hands of criminals...but in this case..the "guns" that the govt aims to restrict are simply closed channels of communication...


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5845512 - 07/11/06 01:27 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

What would be the legal implications of a business that markets software which blocks backdoors so the government can't stick its big nose into them?


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I find your lack of faith disturbing


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: Konnrade]
    #5846456 - 07/11/06 11:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

im not sure if its possible to block the backdoors so as to prevent the govt from viewing a packet of data...OTOH..its easy to encrypt or disguise the said data...an illegible encryption..however..would be cause for suspicion..and if the govt restricts the technology..criminal charges...

the only practical option for the govt to restrict the use of encryption technology would be through licensing...vendors cannot be required to provide a "skeleton key" for use by the govt..since that key would quickly fall into the wrong hands...so in order to purchase encryption software..you would first have to apply for a govt license...but encryption software is easy to code..so the restrictions will be ineffective against illicit users...its just like a silencer..which is illegal but which anyone can make themselves...


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5847087 - 07/11/06 01:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
When the government taps into the communications of such large numbers of people, it is statistically a waste of resources in the detection of terrorists. The numbers of terrorists are so minuscule among the subjects of government spying, that (if in fact the purpose is to catch terrorists) so many false leads will be generated as to overwhelm investigators and send them on wild goose chases, reducing the chances to what is essentially equivalent to random picks from the population at large. Couple this with the fact that anyone of minimal intelligence engaged in a terrorist plot will in fact encrypt their communications, or resort to physical meeting or message drops out of the reach of the eavesdropping of electronic communications and the justification is patently ridiculous.

The only statistically logical reason for such wide nets as we see coming from the administration and their toadies is to detect who in fact are their political opponents and to intimidate them or target them, as political opponents are much more numerous and a greater threat to the powers that currently control our government. I seriously doubt that the sycophantic cheerleaders of the nascent Bush police state would have been happy if Bill and Hillary were engaged in such trolling. I know from past discussions and tuning in to right-wing talk radio, that the vast majority seemed quite displeased with Hillary's access to the paltry 900 plus FBI files and the Clinton administration's targeting of political opponents utilizing the IRS. That they should so blithely dismiss the growing threat of tyranny posed by the Bush administration reeks of self serving, blind allegiance, a total lack of principles, and extreme short-sightedness for the health and longevity of the republic.



Do you not understand how data-mining works, or are you just a conspiracy nut?

I do not agree with the government keeping tabs on anyone without at least having probably cause, but that said, the logical jump you made here is ridiculous.

The whole purpose of data mining is that you need A LOT of data. They're not just looking at everyone who visits a given website and then investigating them, that would be a waste of time.

Instead, you have to look at trends. A professor I had the opportunity to work with was actually approached by the government to help them identify such trends, and from what he told me the process goes something like this:

There are certain lifestyles that only terrorists will lead. If you look at the 9/11 terrorists you'll see the following patterns (again this is from the professor and he was generalizing to me without documents infront of him, so some of these might be off, and I know I'm missing a few):

They never paid mortgage, rent, or utility bills
They never owned any form of insurance
They frequently made cash withdrawls from ATMs in the largest amounts possible, and did so one after another (i.e. there would be 6 or 7 $500 cash withdrawls in a row)
They routinely carried out the same internet operations (be they e-mailing the same people, visiting the same websites, etc.)
They never opened non-checking accounts (i.e. savings, money markets, etc.)
They paid several large bills every month (presumably flight school) despite not paying utilities, rent, etc. as mentioned above.

Now, if you're going to try and catch a terrorist, it's a waste of time to investigate everyone who e-mails a suspected terrorist, or makes a $500 cash withdrawl from an ATM.

So, what's the solution? You cast a very wide net and look for someone who shows all or most of the above listed behaviour. If you don't open an investigation unless someone always makes $500 withdrawls, does so in sequence with other people, does not appear to be paying any for of rent or utility, and owns no insurance, then you have a pretty good chance of finding a terrorist with very few investigations.

But, the only way to do this successfully is to cast a very wide net. You would have to know about banking transactions, insurance parments, atm activity, school enrollments, etc.

So, please stow your conspiracy crap and actually look into how data mining works before making similar ridiculous claims.

If we want to stop the Bush administration, the best way to do it is to make realistic arguments, and fight within the law. Make sure investigators have probable cause, make sure warrants require the involvement of courts and judges, etc. Making up conspiracies because you don't understand what's going on won't help anyone, and oftentimes it can serve to make the entire opposition look silly.


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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: FBI plans new Net-tapping push [Re: Economist]
    #5847490 - 07/11/06 03:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I know very well what data mining is and how it works, having worked in information systems for over a dozen years and on systems that perform it. The fact is that with your example criteria, you would turn up so many false positives as to make the amount of leads too great to be followed up, diverting resources to many false leads, overwhelming investigators. Terrorists will also not be repeating the same patterns as they did in the run-up to 9/11, as this attack was already tried, and government has put into place policies addressing the particular circumstances of that particular attack. The only thing that would make the mining REALISTICALLY useful is to have a significant percentage of the data you are looking at (comprising a significant percentage of the population) lead to actual targets of investigation. I explained this, how did you miss it? Also, you seem to have missed this very important part,
Quote:

anyone of minimal intelligence engaged in a terrorist plot will in fact encrypt their communications, or resort to physical meeting or message drops out of the reach of the eavesdropping of electronic communications


Intelligence professionals know this, the terrorists know this.

I am making no ridiculous claims. What is ridiculous is assuming that the government will not use data to target political opposition. There is historical precedents for this all over the world, even in the U.S. To deny the possibility is to deny reality. Have you heard of CONTELPRO? Have you heard about the Clinton administration's use of FBI files and tax information to target political opposition? Have you heard how our current administration treats political opponents? Do you think that the outing of Valerie Plame was an accident?


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'


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