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Offlinefj0932jf02fjf2
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Strain degradation? (spores)
    #5837568 - 07/09/06 12:37 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Collecting spores from the latest harvest and using them to set up a new batch of spores, and then doing it all over again... will this in the end lead to a degradation of the strain, and what can be done to prevent this degradation?


Edited by fj0932jf02fjf2 (07/09/06 12:40 AM)


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Invisibleliamtheloser
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Re: Strain degradation? (spores) [Re: fj0932jf02fjf2]
    #5837572 - 07/09/06 12:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

no, only if you CLONE mushrooms over and over again does that happen. you can print forever... how do you think we all have prints now?


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OfflineCyano
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Re: Strain degradation? (spores) [Re: liamtheloser]
    #5837719 - 07/09/06 01:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I am not so sure about this. In the long run it should lead to inbreed. May be mixing spores of some good specimens can prevent this. The same technique used in breeding marihuana.


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Offlinemikeownow
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Re: Strain degradation? (spores) [Re: Cyano]
    #5837812 - 07/09/06 02:37 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It will probably adapt to indoor over 200 years?


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Strain degradation? (spores) [Re: mikeownow]
    #5837829 - 07/09/06 02:54 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I couldn't imagine much evolution to the point where the potency and yield lowers in your own life time.

I hope not, I plan on growing mushrooms forever. It's always a fun way to make good money and supply your town with magic.

Of course I don't grow or sell, my friend does. :wink: :wink:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Strain degradation? (spores) [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5837896 - 07/09/06 05:06 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

A strain will degrade over time. Penis Envy is a perfect example.
RR


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Offlinefj0932jf02fjf2
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Re: Strain degradation? (spores) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5837918 - 07/09/06 05:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Is it maybe so that the strain doesn't neccesarily have to degrade over time, but do change accordingly to the enviromental conditions which the strain is adapting to without us being able to do anthying about it? So to prevent degradation/change, one should select the spore source carefully and also change the environmental parameters a little?


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Strain degradation? (spores) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5837992 - 07/09/06 06:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
A strain will degrade over time. Penis Envy is a perfect example.
RR




I am so confused. Penis Envy came from another strain? Or does it just suck now because of the way people breeded it?

Since strains cannot mix, and wouldn't in nature (I don't think) wouldn't they continually go the same route unless their environment changed and they needed to change to stay alive?


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OfflineCyano
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Re: Strain degradation? (spores) [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5838013 - 07/09/06 07:37 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

If one buys a print, grows shrooms from it, makes another print from one of the shrooms and so on for many generations, the strains loses genes. In ´´Marihuana Botany´´ I read one has to establish at least 3 breeding lines when cultivating pure strains. (Not wit hybrids. Hybridization brings new genes into the strain and causes hybrid vigor. The opposite of degeneration caused by inbreed)If one buys a print and grows shrooms from it one should at least make 3 prints. Named A,B and C. Spores of A can be mixed with B and with C. Spores from B can be mixed with C. Now one has 3 mixes: A+B, A+C and B+C. From each batch of these mixes one makes 1 print and calls them A1 (A+B), B1 (A+C) and C1 (B+C). The spores of thes prints can be mixed the same way every generation. More lines are better since the sporeprints are then less related to each other. This should prevent degeneration by inbreed. Of course one never knows if the prints are really a result of mixing 2 prints. But, unless one has a microscoop and can isolate single spores, it is the best one can do.
I have never read of someone doing this with mushrooms but I assume the laws of genetics are, more or less, the same for mushrooms as for marihuana or any other plant or animal species under cultivation.


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: Strain degradation? (spores) [Re: Cyano]
    #5838043 - 07/09/06 08:11 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well I'm doing it. It's not like its all that hard.

Actually if my plan works, using an LC and constantly adding honey to it when the mycelium is low, I wont have to!

What worries me though is that my strain might be already pretty degraded coming from a major spore dealer like Ralph, hopefully he's realised that by being lazy he can inbreed and lose potency, yield and whatever.

If that's the case, I wont even want to be breeding these shrooms because they'll just suck.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Strain degradation? (spores) [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5838781 - 07/09/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Mushrooms have been inbreeding for hundreds of thousands of years. You're not likely to see any problems in your lifetime.

Inbreeding is not a problem in species that regularly inbreed. It only becomes a problem when lack of inbreeding causes undetected mutations to percolate through a species. Then you get problems with rare recessive mutations causing deformities and other problems.

Every gene carries an energy penalty. Nature favors adaptability and genetic variation. But in lab conditions there is a selective pressure against variability and adaptability. So if you culture something under identical conditions eventually it will lose unused and nonusefull genes. Eventually you end up with a weak strain that is very sensitive to any changes in environment because it has lost the ability to deal with changes. It has nothing to do with inbreeding, although outcrossing would tend to counteract the effects.

That's why you should change media types every so often. It makes sure that you are preserving at least some adaptability. Unless you are planning a long term breeding program it is nothing to worry about though.


-FF


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OfflineCoolMojo
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Re: Strain degradation? (spores) [Re: fastfred]
    #5838897 - 07/09/06 01:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah PF had this happen to him a few years back I beleive, Grew his mushrooms out on brf so much it died out. If you just change your substrate every so often should be fine.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Strain degradation? (spores) [Re: CoolMojo]
    #5838923 - 07/09/06 01:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yep, a hundred generations on the same substrate, in the same conditions and you'll have a very weak strain.

A hundred generations is not a hyperbole either, PF was around easily that long.


-FF


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Strain degradation? (spores) [Re: fastfred]
    #5839112 - 07/09/06 03:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"Mushrooms have been inbreeding for hundreds of thousands of years. You're not likely to see any problems in your lifetime."

Ahem. Mushrooms release spores into the air by the billions. Where the wind takes those spores to land is completely random. The chances of spores from the same cap landing in the same place to mate with other spores from the same cap, generation after generation for hundreds of thousands of years is nil.

Mushrooms breed and cross strains with other mushrooms of the same species in nature. That's why the wild strains we isolate have much more vigor than the ones we cultivate. Changing substrate does not change genetics.
RR


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Strain degradation? (spores) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5839412 - 07/09/06 04:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Plenty of spores land right next to each other. When spores are released they travel together somewhat. I would bet that the vast majority of wild mates are to the same strain.

While outcrossing may be common in the spores that are dispersed over long distances as you suggest, for every one of those there are hundreds of thousands that make just a few feet and land right next to sibling spores.

Also many species of mushroom are homothalic and rarely mate. Some species of fungi don't even appear to have a functional sexual cycle.

There's not much point in arguing the subject since neither of us has done the large scale research to determine the frequency of outcrossing in nature. My point is though, that fungi inbreed to a much greater extent than most other organisms, so inbreeding is a way of life for them rather than a problem.

> Changing substrate does not change genetics.

It changes the selective pressure on them, so yes it will change their genetics. I know what you mean though, it won't magically bring back lost genes caused by continuous cultivation under the same conditions.


-FF


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Strain degradation? (spores) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5839431 - 07/09/06 04:38 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The chances of spores from the same cap landing in the same place to mate with other spores from the same cap, generation after generation for hundreds of thousands of years is nil.




It doesn't have to be from the same cap to be inbreeding. If a patch of myc that produces say 12 fruits and the spores from any one of those 12 fruits land near one another and mate then that is a brother-sister mate. Inbreeding also changes the genetic dynamic in that a product of inbreeding will be more related to ALL other family members than a non-inbred specimen.

I also wasn't trying to say that continuous inbreeding always takes place unbroken for hundreds of thousands of years. But if there is an outcross even every say 5 generations then that is still highly inbred.


-FF


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