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Offlinekotik
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only that which can destroy itself is fully alive
    #5826998 - 07/06/06 09:13 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

only that which can destroy itself is fully alive




- Carl Jung (as translated by Joseph Campbell)

I find this statement to be profound, and full of truth, at the same time being somewhat of a taboo subject.

perhaps the option of suicide is truly what makes us human. ?


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Offlineleery11
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: kotik]
    #5827017 - 07/06/06 09:20 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality.
Choosing to be here in this body.
Alive!


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: leery11]
    #5827078 - 07/06/06 09:52 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"SUICIDE" can be done for the greater good of the population, war ants, fighting against other ants, Kamikaze planes, Jihad, all make sacrifices for the common good of their people, desperate situations call for desperate measures, the domestic suicide can be attributed to drug use, poverty, relational breakups, whatever, but usually entail so sort of level of cowardice, or drama, that entails something extravagant, what does this say about us as being alive, to look at it this way, I'd say you can make that correlation with any human attribute, because we're the most complex species, but yeah, sucicide, also known for the material arts realm, in Japan people committed Heri Keri, to take ones own life is better to continue on, Ha Ha, I think sucide is always a option when dealing with despertion, does this make us alive, best avenue to ease suffering, suffering is more to fear than death, yeah maybe, I don't know


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OfflineIamHungry
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: kotik]
    #5827093 - 07/06/06 09:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I understand what you're saying, but the fact that we CAN resort to suicide is meaningless. The fact that we WOULD resort to suicide is more appropriate. Lots of animals have the ability to harm themselves, and some of them do. Bears, when they're living in zoos and aren't able to forage for their food because all their sustenance is provided for them, go crazy and end up hurting themselves as a reality check, much like autistic humans. But you're right, I've never seen a bear who felt like a burden and wanted to end it all because they thought it would stop other bears' suffering.


--------------------
Here comes the sun, do n do do,
Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright...


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Offlinekotik
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: IamHungry]
    #5827183 - 07/06/06 10:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

with the same statement, i see a correlation between suicide/life and choice/freedom


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OfflineIamHungry
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: kotik]
    #5827375 - 07/06/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Fundamentally I was agreeing with you. I was just fixing up your words a bit. That humans are AWARE of the option of suicide is what makes us human. Bears don't know why they go crazy, and they don't know what it is they desire. They know what makes them feel good, but no matter how crappy their situations get they will probably never CHOOSE suicide.


--------------------
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Here comes the sun, and I say,
It's alright...


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Offlinekotik
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: IamHungry]
    #5827392 - 07/06/06 11:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup:

wasn't disagreeing, just adding to my original statement, after reading your reply.


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OfflineMXNR
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: kotik]
    #5827618 - 07/06/06 01:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I agree. That's totally profound and totally true. I'm reminded of a Nietzsche quote:

"It is always consoling to think of suicide: in that way one gets through many a bad night."

It's really funny, but for a sentient being, life MUST be a choice! I mean, you have the ability to kill yourself painlessly (do a little research, many painless methods). SO, it follows that if you do not kill yourself painlessly, than you are CHOOSING TO LIVE. That's right, a choice. I know we hate to take responsibility and love blaming everyone else, but we choose to be here. It's like buying a ticket to a movie; don't go into the movie and them sit there be miserable and bitch at everyone else who may actually be enjoying the film, GET THE HELL OUT OF THE THEATER! NO ONE IS KEEPING YOU HERE.

I have thought about suicide many times, but each time I went through it intellectually/philosophically and realized that life was a better choice. I've been so miserable that believe me, fear was not a factor as Joe Rogan would say. Also, sometimes a friend will come to me and say they want to kill themselves. I say, "Well, OK. You have the right to do that you know, just make sure you are lucid and clear headed when making the decision. I mean you do OWN YOUR OWN BODY, RIGHT? Hell yes. After telling them that, they are instantly relieved, realize they have freedom and choice in the matter, and they usually become much more "awake" people after such an experience. They realize that they can't keep blaming others who want to push them around or force them to work, get married, etc. After they realize this, they take an ACTIVE approach in their lives. They realize they are fully in control of the show and can step out painlessly anytime they want. Seriously, consider this:

"It is always consoling to think of suicide: in that way one gets through many a bad night."

I know suicide is a taboo subject but that's just because the Christians rule these days (and that damn biological reproductive drive thing, which is so passe, don't you think?).

You are your intelligent awareness! You are living because you choose to! You are responsible! Remember that.


--------------------
Master: Everyday change your clothes and eat your food and you will become enlightened.

Pupil: Master, I do not understand...

Master: If you don't understand, eat your food and change your clothes.


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: MXNR]
    #5830496 - 07/07/06 03:50 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MXNR said:
I agree. That's totally profound and totally true. I'm reminded of a Nietzsche quote:

"It is always consoling to think of suicide: in that way one gets through many a bad night."

It's really funny, but for a sentient being, life MUST be a choice! I mean, you have the ability to kill yourself painlessly (do a little research, many painless methods). SO, it follows that if you do not kill yourself painlessly, than you are CHOOSING TO LIVE. That's right, a choice. I know we hate to take responsibility and love blaming everyone else, but we choose to be here. It's like buying a ticket to a movie; don't go into the movie and them sit there be miserable and bitch at everyone else who may actually be enjoying the film, GET THE HELL OUT OF THE THEATER! NO ONE IS KEEPING YOU HERE.

I have thought about suicide many times, but each time I went through it intellectually/philosophically and realized that life was a better choice. I've been so miserable that believe me, fear was not a factor as Joe Rogan would say. Also, sometimes a friend will come to me and say they want to kill themselves. I say, "Well, OK. You have the right to do that you know, just make sure you are lucid and clear headed when making the decision. I mean you do OWN YOUR OWN BODY, RIGHT? Hell yes. After telling them that, they are instantly relieved, realize they have freedom and choice in the matter, and they usually become much more "awake" people after such an experience. They realize that they can't keep blaming others who want to push them around or force them to work, get married, etc. After they realize this, they take an ACTIVE approach in their lives. They realize they are fully in control of the show and can step out painlessly anytime they want. Seriously, consider this:

"It is always consoling to think of suicide: in that way one gets through many a bad night." 

I know suicide is a taboo subject but that's just because the Christians rule these days (and that damn biological reproductive drive thing, which is so passe, don't you think?).

You are your intelligent awareness! You are living because you choose to! You are responsible! Remember that.




And you are responsible for your self-righteous-ness.  :rolleyes:

I wanted to kill myself from reading your post. . . Hehehehe eheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh. Yeah ... umh.. What was I supposed to say again?

Yeah. Now I remember.

Just because we can suffer enough to override our survival-instincts long enough to kill ourselves, it doesn't make us sentient beings or truly alive. I would deem it very much the other way around.

When you can let your instincts be your instincts, and be what you are, rather than having to lean on the fact that you could always just die if things get hairy - perhaps you truly are alive.

My neighbours dog is more alive than me.  :smirk:


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: slaphappy]
    #5830687 - 07/07/06 06:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

so lack of civilization = alive? i beg to differ.

those that live on instincts alone are obviously alive, but not in the same sense as we are talking about here.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: kotik]
    #5830706 - 07/07/06 07:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

How come we cannot make a civilization which isn't based upon inhibiting some instincts and perversing others?

Civilization = Against instincts??

I beg to differ.

And yes. Lack of civilization as we know it = alive.

What sense are you talking about here?


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: slaphappy]
    #5832046 - 07/07/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Fantastic posts, Slaphappy. The bird on the wire down the street IS more alive than me in the sense of being more immersed in the experience of living. I'm not sure what other sense of being alive other posters on this thread might be talking about.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: slaphappy]
    #5832406 - 07/07/06 04:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

slaphappy said:
How come we cannot make a civilization which isn't based upon inhibiting some instincts and perversing others?





go ahead, i personally am not stopping you, but if you mean "we" as in you and i creating a civilization, it's because I don't think we work on the same logic, or perhaps even in the same reality.

Quote:

Civilization = Against instincts??




yes and no. is that really hard to see? civilization is compromise on a massive scale. suppress some instincts, in order to endulge in others.

Quote:

Lack of civilization as we know it = alive.




ironically, that particular case of "alive" would have a much shorter lifespan

Quote:

Panoramix said:
Fantastic posts, Slaphappy. The bird on the wire down the street IS more alive than me in the sense of being more immersed in the experience of living. I'm not sure what other sense of being alive other posters on this thread might be talking about.




if this was sarcastic, i could not pick up on it. just in case, i would argue that the ability to know the difference between life and death, gives you the ability to understand what life is, and therefore truly be alive. If you are unaware of the duality, then you are in ignorance.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: kotik]
    #5832799 - 07/07/06 06:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I know what you mean


but the core of life, is, well, to live, and when life decides not to live, it steps outside of its natural definition, meaning it is malfunctioning.
When a washing machine does not wash, it is broken.

I really never heard of anyone killing themselfs simply because they don't feel like living anymore. These people are either in really deep shit and depressed, or are psychotic, whish is more or less the same thing


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: slaphappy]
    #5832809 - 07/07/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

slaphappy said:
How come we cannot make a civilization which isn't based upon inhibiting some instincts and perversing others?

Civilization = Against instincts??

I beg to differ.

And yes. Lack of civilization as we know it = alive.

What sense are you talking about here?




hmm, lack of civilsation means life..

well, when I go to sleep I like knowing a bear won't eat me in my sleep, I like drinking coffee, I like having clothes, I like using my computer, I like having a house, I wouldn't like living in a cave..
I guess I like civilisation, so no thanks, I'd rather be not alive then


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinekotik
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5832842 - 07/07/06 06:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

so you admit, suicide is the only way to live?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: kotik]
    #5832888 - 07/07/06 06:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
so you admit, suicide is the only way to live?




if death=civilisation, then yes, I've commited suicide when I learned by first word, I've traded my freedom (which I don't feel I need) for a sea of conveniences, like having other people manufacture my beloved 501's, or being safe from animals.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5834234 - 07/08/06 02:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"I've traded my freedom (which I don't feel I need) for a sea of conveniences, like having other people manufacture my beloved 501's, or being safe from animals." --OldWoodSpectre

So yes, that means you're less alive.  Endure some hardship and odds are you'll agree with me.  It's unpleasant, but that doesn't mean it's not exhilerating.  And yes, you'll die sooner.  But hey, it's quality, not quantity, right?  Right.

"i would argue that the ability to know the difference between life and death, gives you the ability to understand what life is, and therefore truly be alive. If you are unaware of the duality, then you are in ignorance." --Kotik

That's a nice argument, but you realize you're claiming to know the secrets of life and death with such a statement?  You KNOW what death is?  You really KNOW about it, and it's in diametric opposition to life?  Are you sure it isn't part of life, an inevitablity?  You sure they aren't actually the same thing, more or less?  You think maybe the bird on the wire doesn't know that, isn't at peace with that?  Are you going to struggle gracelessly against what is natural with your last ounce of strength and down to your last penny?  That bird won't and I'd like to think that I'll have the cahones not to either, when my time comes.

Maybe it's the person claiming knowledge beyond the scope of their understanding that's truly in ignorance.  :smirk: :smirk:


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Offlinekotik
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: Panoramix]
    #5834713 - 07/08/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i DO know that death is the absense of life as we know it on the physical plane.  I don't know anything more than that, but its still more than what a fish knows.

Or perhaps i make huge assumptions...  :lol:


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: only that which can destroy itself is fully alive [Re: kotik]
    #5834865 - 07/08/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The whole argument as suicide being an option as to the present difficult situation, I'd think eventually you'd have to take yourself seriously for it to have any relevance in making you feel assured of having that option, If you never truly entertained the idea, then you really not showing it to be any relevance to your situation, which then the option would have no bearing on the situation,

But what type of mind one would need to entertain to make such a course seem viable, that death is a reassuring option to the present moment, can this attitude make me feel more alive and immersed in the present moment, well if you had to contemplate on a underlining state of demise to continue on, I'd say that really your just tricking yourself,


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