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InvisibleAlex213
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Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck?
    #5822969 - 07/05/06 09:54 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Only a UN-led peace process can halt the Iraq catastrophe

The British and American governments like to pretend that things are getting better in Iraq. They are wrong. The facts belie their optimism. Between 2004 and 2005 the number of car and roadside bombs doubled, and suicide bombs trebled. Electricity supplies and oil production are still below prewar levels. Iraq stands on the threshold of civil war. The illegal invasion, launched on a flawed prospectus and with little understanding of the consequences, has resulted in the deaths of about 3,000 coalition soldiers, 40,000 civilians and many UN and humanitarian workers.

Since 2003 the coalition has met neither its obligations nor its objectives. There was a catastrophic failure to plan for postwar Iraq, followed by misjudgment and incompetence. This has been overlaid by a disproportionate use of military force, including gross human rights abuses. There are nearly 30,000 people being held without trial in Iraq. These failures and misjudgments have perpetuated the insurgency, increased corruption and criminality, and inhibited improvements to the lives of Iraqis. We must now face the possibility that Iraq could become a failed state. That would have devastating economic and security consequences for the region, and would risk taking the current humanitarian disaster to a completely new level.

The catalogue of errors means the capacity of the UK and the US to play a positive role in redeeming the situation is severely diminished. The legitimacy of the coalition, always questionable, is now simply not accepted by most Iraqis. A 2005 poll for the British Ministry of Defence found that eight out of 10 Iraqis strongly opposed the presence of coalition forces. Between 70%-90% want to see a timeline for the withdrawal of coalition troops.

Faced with this reality, the British and American governments seem to be in denial. The last time the British government allotted parliamentary time for a full debate on Iraq was July 20 2004, which was only the second occasion since March 18 2003. It appears to be running scared of critical evaluation. The coalition does not have an exit strategy, nor does it have a strategy for staying. But to continue as it has been is not a credible option. The British and US governments require a coherent stabilisation and exit strategy. The early moves by Iraq's government of national unity to form a reconciliation plan are positive, but vague on detail.

The foundation of a new strategy should be a peace process led by the UN to accelerate national reconciliation and the internationalisation of support for Iraq. If the problems of internecine conflict within Iraq have international dimensions, so too must the solutions. A new strategy would seek to build on the policies set out by the Iraqi prime minister and work towards an international "compact", similar to that agreed with Afghanistan, setting out the commitments of all sides and a comprehensive security and reconstruction strategy.

Only an international solution can shore up the legitimacy and effectiveness of Iraq's government, improve the delivery of essential services and facilitate the end of the militarisation. Every further association with the US and the UK taints the Iraqi administration.

What should that solution contain? First, establishing a regional contact group would strengthen the engagement of Iraq's neighbours, and require them to play a constructive role in reconstruction. A contact group could play a significant role in talking to insurgent groups, improving border controls and promoting economic stability.

Second, enhanced measures to train, equip and professionalise Iraqi security forces are needed to de-politicise them and improve security. Coalition forces should move towards training, advising and equipping. Third, a comprehensive, UN-led disarmament, demobilisation and reintegration strategy is necessary to make a reality of the Iraqi prime minister's policy that the militias must merge with the national security forces.

Fourth, there should be an end to systematic indefinite detentions by Iraqi and US forces, and full access should be granted to UN human rights monitors and the Red Cross. Fifth, the reconstruction process must be expedited and legitimised (60% of Iraqis believe the UN should have the lead role). Increasing UNDP and the World Bank involvement would enhance transparency and accountability. Donors must play their part and deliver on their aid pledges.

Sixth, Iraq needs a programme for phased security transfer and withdrawal of coalition troops. The Iraqis view them as occupiers. A limited British withdrawal is taking place but US troops are redeploying in other parts of the country. The UK should aim to achieve a series of withdrawals, in parallel with the US, according to milestones in the stabilisation and reconstruction process. A transparent agreement with the Iraqi administration would help to counter the perception of occupation and illegitimacy.

I have been supportive of British efforts to bring stability to Iraq. But, support for the government cannot be unconditional. Unless it shows that it has learned from its failures and is ready to look afresh at the way out of the Iraqi quagmire, it will be impossible to justify the continuing presence of British forces in Iraq. With distressing regularity, the Commons pays tribute to the brave men and women who have lost their lives in Iraq. If the government cannot explain why it is necessary that they should make the ultimate sacrifice, then it must be prepared to bring them home.

ยท Menzies Campbell is leader of the Liberal Democrats

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1812812,00.html


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5822999 - 07/05/06 10:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Ah yes, the two most sucessful governments in the entire world cant' solve the Iraq problem, but if the UN gets put in charge, they'll wave their magic wand that Kofi stores in his desk (near the oil-for-food scammed money) and things will fall directly into place.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5823001 - 07/05/06 10:11 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> Only a UN-led peace process can halt the Iraq catastrophe

Ah yes, because the UN has such a great history ...


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Seuss]
    #5823021 - 07/05/06 10:23 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

let's get out of the UN and then pull out of Iraq since they seem to know how to handle the situation properly. We can use the contractors coming to transport our troops and equipment out to bring the UN's in so we don't have to have our ships and planes dead heading in. That way they will be able to show us how much smarter and well prepared they are to make the world a happy place.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5823040 - 07/05/06 10:31 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Wow, wake up dude. The UN isn't going to stop two groups of bloodthirsty religious fanatics from tearing each ohters heads off any better than the US. Iraqis will be no more welcoming of an International led force versus the current coalition, it's all foreigners to the Iraqis.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5823259 - 07/05/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds good to me, it's high time we pull out of that shit hole waste of money, could care less if no one tries to clean it up. But if the UN thinks it can go for it heh.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5824168 - 07/05/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RosettaStoned said:somewhere
Sounds good to me, it's high time we pull out of that shit hole waste of money, could care less if no one tries to clean it up. But if the UN thinks it can go for it heh.




For a second there I thought you had managed to purchase a clue. Then I read the second sentence and realized you weren't talking about the UN.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Basilides]
    #5824205 - 07/05/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Wow, wake up dude. The UN isn't going to stop two groups of bloodthirsty religious fanatics from tearing each ohters heads off any better than the US. Iraqis will be no more welcoming of an International led force versus the current coalition, it's all foreigners to the Iraqis.




The UN hasn't slaughtered thousands of Iraqi's and led them around on dog leads. The US has. Big difference.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5824237 - 07/05/06 04:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

No, they were far to busy cornholing 8 year olds in Somalia and elsewhere.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5824253 - 07/05/06 04:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well, the US has cornholed plenty of Iraqis, maybe it's time they did a swap and took up cornholing somalians instead.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5824259 - 07/05/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

So, where's the improvement?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5824266 - 07/05/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

We'd have to see. Once you're in a clusterfuck there's not usually any problem free way out.


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5824340 - 07/05/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

So, after the almighty international ClusterFuckers take control, shit will still suck, the US won't have any power and we'll still be blamed for everything that goes bad. No thanks.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5824392 - 07/05/06 05:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
The UN hasn't slaughtered thousands of Iraqi's and led them around on dog leads. The US has. Big difference.




The real difference is that the US has had historical success in terms of nation building. Look at Japan and South Korea, I'd say they're pretty good. Even lesser nations that the US has rebuilt post-invasion have done well. Grenada has been a stable democracy ever since the US invasion, so has Panama. They may not have the most booming economies, but they have free and open elections which are routinely certified by international observers.

Meanwhile, what nation-building success stories does the UN have?

Somalia..er..East Timor..no..um..Sierra Leone..wait..um..maybe Cambodia...no not that either...how about Rwanda?

The point is, if my nation was in desperate need of reconstruction I'd happily throw my lot in the with US instead of the UN. At least I've got a chance at stable democracy if the US is put in charge. If the UN takes over, forget it.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Basilides]
    #5824942 - 07/05/06 07:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Alex:

Whatever force is needed to restore security in Iraq is going to involve the barrell of a gun either way. If an international force goes in there, it will be an international force accumulating collateral damage when fighting insurgents instead of the US/Coalition. Makes no difference, to the Iraqis it will still be the same shit, just a different asshole boss.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5826109 - 07/06/06 12:30 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The real difference is that the US has had historical success in terms of nation building.

Difference is Bush has already said he isn't interested in nation-building. There's enormous differences between Japan and Iraq, there was a thread recently about it.

Even lesser nations that the US has rebuilt post-invasion have done well.

Afghanistan isn't looking too good is it.

Grenada has been a stable democracy ever since the US invasion

Come again?

bad enough that what actually happened in October 1983 in Grenada was the US overthrowing another government which was not a threat to anyone and covering it up with a campaign of lies that stood unmatched until the present-day Iraq fiasco, but here's what "the restoration of democracy to Grenada" looked like at the time: At the end of 1984, former Premier Herbert Blaize was elected prime minister, his party capturing 14 of the 15 parliamentary seats. Blaize, who in the wake of the invasion had proclaimed to the United States: "We say thank you from the bottom of our hearts," had been favored by the Reagan administration. The candidate who won the sole opposition seat announced that he would not occupy it because of what he called "vote rigging and interference in the election by outside forces." One year later, the Washington-based Council on Hemispheric Affairs reported on Grenada as part of its annual survey of human rights abuses:

Reliable accounts are circulating of prisoners being beaten, denied medical attention and confined for long periods without being able to see lawyers. The country's new US-trained police force has acquired a reputation for brutality, arbitrary arrest and abuse of authority.


Somalia

The US occupied Somalia don't forget. Look what a success that was.

least I've got a chance at stable democracy if the US is put in charge

The US doesn't need to be put in charge. They are in charge and have been for 3 years.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5826272 - 07/06/06 01:11 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

On Grenada - Your talking about 1 year after the invasion, US forces continued to work with the local police for YEARS afterwards, not just 12 months. Grenada has held regular elections ever since the invasion, this is a MAJOR achievement given the history of Caribbean and Latin American democracies. Perhaps things were rough during the first year, but many other nations in that region cannot claim twenty years of uninterrupted open elections.

On Afghanistan - And the US hasn't left yet, has it?

On Somalia - Please remember that the US was there at the behest of the UN, and that while the US operated separately in most military respects, the UN was very much in charge

On nation building in Iraq - What are you talking about? President Bush presented the idea of creating an open democracy in the middle east as one of the primary reasons for invasion. That sounds like nation building to me...

Also, still waiting on a UN nation-building success story...


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5826485 - 07/06/06 03:21 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

RosettaStoned said:somewhere
Sounds good to me, it's high time we pull out of that shit hole waste of money, could care less if no one tries to clean it up. But if the UN thinks it can go for it heh.




For a second there I thought you had managed to purchase a clue. Then I read the second sentence and realized you weren't talking about the UN.




You mean to tell me the US spent even close to the same amount of the tax payers money on the UN as iraq? Shit hole waste of money describes iraq better than any place on earth.

Someone definitely needs a clue here, or was that a pathetic attempt at humor?


--------------------
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"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5826506 - 07/06/06 03:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

On Grenada - Your talking about 1 year after the invasion

Why limit ourselves to after the invasion? We could talk the years before the invasion where Noreiga was considered an ally of the US. The list of brutal dictatorships who are allies of the US is as long as your arm. Uzbekistan for examples boils opponents alive. The US is a strong ally of Uzbekistan.

On Afghanistan - And the US hasn't left yet, has it?


It sure as hell isn't doing much. The Taliban are coming back strong and Karzai's authority extends to the bottom of his street in Kabul.

What are you talking about? President Bush presented the idea of creating an open democracy in the middle east as one of the primary reasons for invasion. That sounds like nation building to me...


Nah, nation-building costs a helluva lot more money than Bush wants to spend in Iraq. More money has been robbed from Iraq than is being spent on rebuilding the place.

Also, still waiting on a UN nation-building success story...

I'm still waiting on a US one to be honest.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5827060 - 07/06/06 09:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
On Afghanistan - And the US hasn't left yet, has it?





Actually...for all intents and purposes it has left. Canada has taken on the role of supplying forces to the region and a Canadian is in charge of the entire operation now.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/news/national/2003/07/17/command_kabul030717.html
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1719


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5827101 - 07/06/06 10:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The real difference is that the US has had historical success in terms of nation building. Look at Japan and South Korea

Why not look at Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia too?


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5827409 - 07/06/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
On Grenada - Your talking about 1 year after the invasion

Why limit ourselves to after the invasion? We could talk the years before the invasion where Noreiga was considered an ally of the US. The list of brutal dictatorships who are allies of the US is as long as your arm. Uzbekistan for examples boils opponents alive. The US is a strong ally of Uzbekistan.



Dude, sorry to tell you this, but you're thinking of Panama here, not Grenada. Incidentally, post-US invasion Panama has held regular free and open elections just like Grenada.

As for your point about the US being allies with brutal dictators, that has nothing to do with this discussion. No matter how many brutal dictators are allied with the US, even more are members of the UN and the point of this discussion is whether or not the UN would do a better job in Iraq than the US.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Nah, nation-building costs a helluva lot more money than Bush wants to spend in Iraq. More money has been robbed from Iraq than is being spent on rebuilding the place.



Can you back this up with anything? Either proof that more money has been "robbed" from Iraq than it would cost to a quote from Bush saying that he's unwilling to spend rebuilding monies?

The drop in reconstruction funds relates to increased security spending to fight the insurgency. Bush has never stated that the monetary aid with end the moment the insurgency dries up, and there have been no claims made about what aid will be offered to Iraq after the troops leave. So, what statements made by the Bush administration would you say are "proof" that they have no intention of rebuilding Iraq.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Also, still waiting on a UN nation-building success story...

I'm still waiting on a US one to be honest.



And it would be a point worth arguing if this thread was about whether or not the US had a good chance of successfully rebuilding Iraq.

But that's not the claim that started this thread. This thread was started with the claim that the UN should take over for the US. I believe that such a claim should be backed up by at least 1 UN success story, otherwise there's no good reason for the UN to take over.

Also, I'd still point to South Korea, Japan, Panama, and Grenada, as I did before. If there was a thread about how Japan was different, I didn't see it, as I've yet to see anything that shows a failure in democracy after the US invasions and rebuilding missions in Panama and Grenada.


Edited by Economist (07/06/06 12:00 PM)


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5827435 - 07/06/06 11:59 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
The real difference is that the US has had historical success in terms of nation building. Look at Japan and South Korea

Why not look at Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia too?



Well, let's see:

Vietnam - We don't know how successful elections would have been in South Vietnam, because it was invaded by North Vietnam

Laos - Last I checked the US didn't execute any sort of regime-change here, troops entered briefly, but the Laotian government was never the target

Cambodia - Funny story, as with Laos the US never attempted to set up a democracy in Cambodia...but the UN did! In one of the largest deployments in the history of the UN (about 17,000 personnel, including 15,000 peacekeepers from 1992-1993) And what a failure that's been.

On Aghanistan - Last I checked, putting a Canadian in charge of rebuilding efforts in no way signals a US withdrawl. US troops are currently involved in a offensive, but that doesn't mean they're going to leave the second the offensive is over, they'll just go back to rebuilding...


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5827559 - 07/06/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Vietnam - The government(The Diem Regime) we put into a power was despised by most of the people. When the buddhists would protest the regime by setting themselves on fire he referred to them as "Roadside Barbecues" He was deposed by his own military which made Vietnam even more unstable. Our only hope of success was the immediate training of ARVN forces. If the US military concentrated on the bombing of Vietnamese infrastructure in Hanoi the war could of possibly been won, By the time US forces left in 1973. In two years the US trained ARVN were completely routed by 1975 during the fall of Saigon.

Cambodia- Our training of the local indians and Khmers was negated by the Rise and power of Pol Pot, who systematically emptied all the cities and infrastructure and engaged in a 2-3 year genocide that left most intellectuals dead. Cambodia was invaded by the North Vietnamese and they uncovered absolutely derelict cities and they completely routed the Khmers.

Afghanistan- Is about as stable as Dagestan or Chechnya. The Puppet president we put into power has to constantly have shit tons of security because of all the attempts on his life. The only places that have security are large towns. The rest of the country is controlled by militans,drug lords, taliban and anyone else who may or may not be allied with the Coalition.

Laos- Our CIA and military advisors were in this country since the early 60's training the local indian populations to fight communism. Didnt really help much.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5827609 - 07/06/06 01:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

So, as you outlined, in none of those instances did the US government actually execute regime change and try to build up a new government from scratch (as the US did in Japan, Panama, Grenada, and is trying to do in Iraq).


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5827855 - 07/06/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
So, as you outlined, in none of those instances did the US government actually execute regime change and try to build up a new government from scratch (as the US did in Japan, Panama, Grenada, and is trying to do in Iraq).




All those countries are a microcosm compared to Iraq. We never counted on Rival ethnicities all vying for a power vaccuum in Iraq. Iraq will more then likely be split up into autonomous regions similar to the Balkans, This would more then likely make it easier to control.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5828814 - 07/06/06 06:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The US didn't "occupy" Somalia. The whole mess started when the UN attempted to launch a poorly planned and executed humanitarian effort that got ambushed by militants. The US didn't like the prospect of militants killing humanitarian workers so they sent in reinforcements. Then some marines died, a manhunt ensued that resulted in more discombobulation before eventually they hightailed it out of there. You seem to think that very single US military action in history has somekind of "occupation" conspiracy to it. :shrug:


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Basilides]
    #5829097 - 07/06/06 07:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"War is important for consuming the products of human labour. If this work would be used to increase the standard of living, the control of the party over the people would decrease. War is the economy basis for a hierarchical society."

"the consciousness of being at war, and therefore in danger, makes the handing-over of all power to a small caste seem the natural, unavoidable condition of survival."


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5830404 - 07/07/06 02:09 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Dude, sorry to tell you this, but you're thinking of Panama here, not Grenada

I'm talking Grenada before the US invaded. Noreiga was never an ally of the US? Was Saddam ever an ally of the US?

post-US invasion Panama has held regular free and open elections just like Grenada.


The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, despite some improvements, there continued to be serious problems in several areas. Overall prison conditions remained harsh, with reports of abuse by prison guards. Prolonged pretrial detention was a problem. The judiciary was subject to corruption and political manipulation, and the criminal justice system was inefficient and often corrupt. Despite these shortcomings, the Supreme Court ruled repeatedly that the statute of limitations would not bar cases involving killings and disappearances during the 1968-89 military dictatorship. The media were subject to political pressure, libel suits, and punitive action by government officials. Women held some high positions in the Government, including the presidency for most of the year; however, discrimination against women persisted, and violence against women remained a serious problem. Trafficking in persons was a problem despite improved anti-trafficking laws and publicity and a government crack down on traffickers. Discrimination against indigenous people and minorities continued to be a problem. The Government improved its treatment of refugees and its attention to the persons with disabilities. Child labor was a problem.


And you agree that there's a long list of US allies who are savage dictatorships?

Can you back this up with anything? Either proof that more money has been "robbed" from Iraq than it would cost to a quote from Bush saying that he's unwilling to spend rebuilding monies?


9 billion "missing", 300 million spent.

Last year the congressional team reported that almost $9bn in Iraqi oil revenues disbursed to ministries had gone missing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1765048,00.html

When Paul Bremer, the American pro consul in Baghdad until June last year, arrived in Iraq soon after the official end of hostilities, there was $6bn left over from the UN Oil for Food Programme, as well as sequestered and frozen assets, and at least $10bn from resumed Iraqi oil exports. Under Security Council Resolution 1483, passed on May 22 2003, all these funds were transferred into a new account held at the Federal Reserve Bank in New York, called the Development Fund for Iraq (DFI), and intended to be spent by the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) "in a transparent manner ... for the benefit of the Iraqi people".

The US Congress also voted to spend $18.4bn of US taxpayers' money on the redevelopment of Iraq. By June 28 last year, however, when Bremer left Baghdad two days early to avoid possible attack on the way to the airport, his CPA had spent up to $20bn of Iraqi money, compared with $300m of US funds.

The auditors have so far referred more than a hundred contracts, involving billions of dollars paid to American personnel and corporations, for investigation and possible criminal prosecution. They have also discovered that $8.8bn that passed through the new Iraqi government ministries in Baghdad while Bremer was in charge is unaccounted for, with little prospect of finding out where it has gone. A further $3.4bn appropriated by Congress for Iraqi development has since been siphoned off to finance "security".



http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1522983,00.html


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5830413 - 07/07/06 02:12 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Vietnam - We don't know how successful elections would have been in South Vietnam, because it was invaded by North Vietnam

Laos - Last I checked the US didn't execute any sort of regime-change here, troops entered briefly, but the Laotian government was never the target

Cambodia - Funny story, as with Laos the US never attempted to set up a democracy in Cambodia...but the UN did! In one of the largest deployments in the history of the UN (about 17,000 personnel, including 15,000 peacekeepers from 1992-1993) And what a failure that's been.


Do you believe the US has ever made a mistake in attacking other countries? Or is it purer than the driven snow? Do those millions of people the US killed in south east asia count for anything?

US troops are currently involved in a offensive, but that doesn't mean they're going to leave the second the offensive is over, they'll just go back to rebuilding...

What "rebuilding" are they doing?


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5830435 - 07/07/06 02:33 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

If you're proposing an immediate withdrawal from Iraq before the Iraqi security forces are ept and ready, you're asking for a long term disaster in the region as opposed to a brief clusterfuck.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Basilides]
    #5830448 - 07/07/06 02:50 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah but this is the same old story we got in Vietnam - "we are getting the South Vietnamese to take over the war". Staying is just going to prolong the agony for decades. At the rate the Iraqi army are going it will be 2106 before the US is ready to pull out.

All we can do is pull out, let the UN find a role and make sure Bush is prosecuted as a war criminal so the next president will think twice before causing a clusterfuck.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5831671 - 07/07/06 01:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Do you believe the US has ever made a mistake in attacking other countries? Or is it purer than the driven snow? Do those millions of people the US killed in south east asia count for anything?




I definitely think the US has made mistakes, and Iraq is a huge one.

However, I am not proposing that the UN would do a better job, that is the suggestion you are supporting.

I have yet to see you provide ANY evidence WHATSOEVER that the UN could do a better job than the US. The UN is every bit as corrupt as the US, the UN has had no successful nationbuilding stories, and the UN is RUN by governments that have far worse human rights records than the US could ever have.

Alex213 you have claimed that the UN should take over, now I'm asking for some evidence on your part that they are even remotely capable of taking over.

EDIT -
On Grenada: Alex 213 you ARE thinking of Panama specifically because Noriega WAS NEVER A RULER OF GRENADA, he was, however, a dictator in Panama...

On Bush as a "war criminal": You better be joking. That is the biggest load of bull I have ever heard. The invasion of Iraq was a huge mistake, but if you want someone prosecuted on warcrimes, Bush is nowhere near the one to start with. Are you seriously suggesting that Bush is more deserving of prosecution than figures like Jiang Xemin, Vladimir Putin, any member of the Sudanese government, etc. et al.

If the international community was really going to spend the time and effort to prosecute a government, the US looks like the all-time champion of human rights compared to China, Russia, Sudan, Iran, the DR Congo, Papua New Guinea, Haiti, the list could go on for quite a while. Saying that Bush deserves prosecution when none of the leaders in those countries have ever been brought to justice just sounds whiny and juvenile.


Edited by Economist (07/07/06 01:28 PM)


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5832823 - 07/07/06 06:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Yeah but this is the same old story we got in Vietnam - "we are getting the South Vietnamese to take over the war". Staying is just going to prolong the agony for decades. At the rate the Iraqi army are going it will be 2106 before the US is ready to pull out.

All we can do is pull out, let the UN find a role and make sure Bush is prosecuted as a war criminal so the next president will think twice before causing a clusterfuck.




"The same old story we got?" Were you even a fetus then? No, grasshopper, the justification for the US taking over the French position in Vietnam was to prevent the spread of communism and the mass murder of the S. Vietnamese. Both of which happened when we left. That worked out well.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5833583 - 07/07/06 10:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I suggest we use the same method i use in the bedroom for Iraq: pull out quick, and hope none of your (sea)men are left behind.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: DinahTheCat]
    #5833591 - 07/07/06 10:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

since the "fighting zone" has already been "fucked" enough, hawr hawr funny, no thats not really wot i think on this, its more complicated than that, but i wanted to make a funy.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5834177 - 07/08/06 02:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

However, I am not proposing that the UN would do a better job, that is the suggestion you are supporting.


So what are the alternatives? The US continues as it is? Do you think things will suddenly come good?

The UN is every bit as corrupt as the US, the UN has had no successful nationbuilding stories, and the UN is RUN by governments that have far worse human rights records than the US could ever have.


Well the UN is largely run by the US. Always has been. That's why Israel and the US can break scores of UN resolutions and never get any action taken them against them. Of course when it's someone the US doesn't like breaking a UN resolution means war.

I have yet to see you provide ANY evidence WHATSOEVER that the UN could do a better job than the US

It's hard to see how they could do any worse. At least they might not face the same hatred from the Iraqi people.

The invasion of Iraq was a huge mistake

I don't think it was a mistake at all. I think it was planned for years and finally they came up with an excuse (WMD) that they thought they could con the american public with. It was a good con. It worked.

Now the guy who conned us and slaughtered countless thousands of innocent people needs to pay for it.

Saying that Bush deserves prosecution when none of the leaders in those countries have ever been brought to justice just sounds whiny and juvenile.

It sets the example. If you commit a war crime - and starting a war of aggression is the ULTIMATE war crime - then you face justice.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5834189 - 07/08/06 02:05 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"The same old story we got?" Were you even a fetus then? No, grasshopper, the justification for the US taking over the French position in Vietnam was to prevent the spread of communism and the mass murder of the S. Vietnamese. Both of which happened when we left. That worked out well.

You were around but it sounds like you never paid too much attention.

Soon after taking office. President Richard Nixon introduced his policy of "vietnamization". The plan was to encourage the South Vietnamese to take more responsibility for fighting the war. It was hoped that this policy would eventually enable the United States to withdraw gradually all their soldiers from Vietnam.

Does the story sound familiar?

Incidentally, the justification for invading Iraq wasn't "To make the Iraqi security services stronger and then leave". It was WMD.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5834536 - 07/08/06 09:14 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Alex213 writes:

Quote:

If you commit a war crime - and starting a war of aggression is the ULTIMATE war crime - then you face justice.




Only if someone steps up to the plate to serve justice. The only reason Saddam Hussein is facing justice today for his ULTIMATE war crimes is because Italy, Spain, Poland, Australia, the US, the UK and other member nations of the Coalition stepped up to the plate.



Phred


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Phred]
    #5834918 - 07/08/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Only if someone steps up to the plate to serve justice

So who'se going to dispense justice to Big George?

Spain, Poland, Australia

Don't forget the Federated Islands of Micronesia..


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5834929 - 07/08/06 12:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

On Afghanistan - And the US hasn't left yet, has it?


Actually I thought the US had left Afghanistan. Few troops left behind to protect Karzai from being torn limb from limb and some to hunt Mullah Omar and that's about it. The rest of the country has been handed over to deranged warlords to rule as they see fit.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5834982 - 07/08/06 12:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
So what are the alternatives? The US continues as it is? Do you think things will suddenly come good?

It's hard to see how they could do any worse. At least they might not face the same hatred from the Iraqi people.



This is the most profoundly backwards logic I have ever heard in my life.

"It's hard to see how they could do any worse" is not an affirmative response.

Personally I think tha the Russian Pop Group T.A.T.U. seems very personable, and what man doesn't like two attractive girls who get busy with each other while producing dance hits? Let's put THEM in charge of Iraq because "It's hard to see how they could do any worse" and besides, "at least they might not face the same hatred from the Iraqi people".

Or wait! There's an even better alternative! Let's put the board of directors of Mitsubishi corporation in charge of Iraq! They've managed to keep profits up despite rising production costs! Yay! Besides, "It's hard to see how they could do any worse, at least they might not face the same hatred from the Iraqi people".

The fact of the matter is that the statement "It's hard to see how they could do any worse," is NOT an endorsement of any sorts.

Again, Alex213, you have supported the suggestion that the UN should take over in Iraq. The same organization that ruined Haiti, Somalia, Sierra Leone, Cambodia, Angola, East Timor, etc. shoud be put in charge of Iraq. And again, I am asking for an affirmative reason why. What *benefit* would the UN have that other organizations would not?


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5835007 - 07/08/06 12:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

This is the most profoundly backwards logic I have ever heard in my life.


I'll take that as a compliment  :cool:

The fact of the matter is that the statement "It's hard to see how they could do any worse," is NOT an endorsement of any sorts.


True, true. But I still think the UN would have a better idea than TATU.

The same organization that ruined Haiti, Somalia, Sierra Leone, Cambodia, Angola, East Timor, etc. shoud be put in charge of Iraq.

WHOA there. Lets's not make things TOO simplistic and pat for the sake of the argument. Each of those countries has a whole load of history behind them that you can't blame on the UN.

And again, I am asking for an affirmative reason why

Try and look at it from an Iraqi viewpoint rather than an american. Put yourself in an Iraqis shoes for a moment. Lets make it even more obvious, put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi who lost his family to american gunfire. Why might you prefer a UN presence in the street rather than a US one?


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5838124 - 07/09/06 09:27 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
"The same old story we got?" Were you even a fetus then? No, grasshopper, the justification for the US taking over the French position in Vietnam was to prevent the spread of communism and the mass murder of the S. Vietnamese. Both of which happened when we left. That worked out well.

You were around but it sounds like you never paid too much attention.

Soon after taking office. President Richard Nixon introduced his policy of "vietnamization". The plan was to encourage the South Vietnamese to take more responsibility for fighting the war. It was hoped that this policy would eventually enable the United States to withdraw gradually all their soldiers from Vietnam.

Does the story sound familiar?




Nixon's "vietnamization" was the surrender. We ran away. They were slaughtered. It was hoped that this policy would eventually enable the United States to withdraw gradually all their soldiers from Vietnam. Bullshit. The whole fucking country knew it was a surrender and a death sentence for many S. Vietnamese. We spend years there, lose 50,000 troops, kill hundreds of thousands of the enemy, and they still keep coming. And there was some retard who had "hope" that the ARVN could hold up?????? You may be able to find some lying jackass who said he had hope to gild this particular turd (first defeat)but nobody believed him.
Quoting your own term papers again?
Quote:



Incidentally, the justification for invading Iraq wasn't "To make the Iraqi security services stronger and then leave". It was WMD.




As has been explained to you several times, there were numerous reasons given for invading Iraq, not only WMDs. Nor has anybody other than yourself offered the above as justification for invading Iraq. It probably isn't even a necessary condition for our departure if the Iraqi government decides it's time for us to go, but I doubt they'll do that.
For the impaired: "reason for invading" does not equal "condition for leaving". They are different things.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5838226 - 07/09/06 10:17 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quoting your own term papers again?

No, I'm quoting Richard Nixon. Substitute Iraq for Vietnam and see if anything sounds familiar.

In January I could only conclude that the precipitate withdrawal of American forces from Vietnam would be a disaster not only for South Vietnam but for the United States and for the cause of peace.

We have adopted a plan which we have worked out in cooperation with the South Vietnamese for the complete withdrawal of all U.S. combat ground forces, and their replacement by South Vietnamese forces on an orderly scheduled timetable. This withdrawal will be made from strength and not from weakness. As South Vietnamese forces become stronger, the rate of American withdrawal can become greater.

I have not and do not intend to announce the timetable for our program. And there are obvious reasons for this decision which I am sure you will understand


http://www.usconstitution.com/richardnixon'svietnamization.htm

As has been explained to you several times, there were numerous reasons given for invading Iraq, not only WMDs.

But as you never seem to grasp no matter how many times it's explained to you, WMD was the only remotely legal excuse for launching a war of aggression. All the other excuses were obviously illegal which is why the WMD bullshine was pushed so hard.

Nor has anybody other than yourself offered the above as justification for invading Iraq.

You're confused. I said WMD was the excuse for invading Iraq.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5838432 - 07/09/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Quoting your own term papers again?

No, I'm quoting Richard Nixon. Substitute Iraq for Vietnam and see if anything sounds familiar.

In January I could only conclude that the precipitate withdrawal of American forces from Vietnam would be a disaster not only for South Vietnam but for the United States and for the cause of peace.

We have adopted a plan which we have worked out in cooperation with the South Vietnamese for the complete withdrawal of all U.S. combat ground forces, and their replacement by South Vietnamese forces on an orderly scheduled timetable. This withdrawal will be made from strength and not from weakness. As South Vietnamese forces become stronger, the rate of American withdrawal can become greater.

I have not and do not intend to announce the timetable for our program. And there are obvious reasons for this decision which I am sure you will understand


http://www.usconstitution.com/richardnixon'svietnamization.htm





This was absent from your previous post, which is what I responded to. I also note that there isn't much mention in the above of any "hope" that the S. Vietnamese would be able to hold them off. "Withdrawal will be made from strength????" Oh we certainly had the strength to prevail, just not the will. This is what we called at the time "face saving bullshit." As I noted previously, and fully expected, you certainly were able to find one of those liars. And Nixon was a world champion liar. But nobody believed them then. Not even their dogs.

At any rate, the alleged term paper citation is this:

"Soon after taking office. President Richard Nixon introduced his policy of "vietnamization". The plan was to encourage the South Vietnamese to take more responsibility for fighting the war. It was hoped that this policy would eventually enable the United States to withdraw gradually all their soldiers from Vietnam."

You cited this as an authoritative source to illustrate my cluelessness, yet offered no link. Is it or is it not from either your or someone else's term paper? If not, where, pray tell, did it come from? I believe I've caught you doing this before.
Quote:




As has been explained to you several times, there were numerous reasons given for invading Iraq, not only WMDs.

But as you never seem to grasp no matter how many times it's explained to you, WMD was the only remotely legal excuse for launching a war of aggression. All the other excuses were obviously illegal which is why the WMD bullshine was pushed so hard.




Several nations have similarly concluded that that was one of several legally (what legally? The UN?)acceptable reasons. Failure to comply with the inspections was enough all by itself. Enough of this. It's been done over and over again.
Quote:



Nor has anybody other than yourself offered the above as justification for invading Iraq.

You're confused. I said WMD was the excuse for invading Iraq.




"the justification for invading Iraq wasn't "To make the Iraqi security services stronger and then leave"."

You're the only person I ever saw put "make Iraqi security forces stronger" in the context of justification.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5839387 - 07/09/06 04:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
True, true. But I still think the UN would have a better idea than TATU.



By my point was that this can't be backed up by anything. You can "think" the UN would do a better job in Iraq than TATU, or the US, or anyone, but there's no proof.

In 60 years of peacekeeping, decolonization, and nation building, the UN has failed to have 1 success story. Not ONE. Why should Iraqis trust an organization with such a history of failure?

Quote:

Alex213 said:
WHOA there. Lets's not make things TOO simplistic and pat for the sake of the argument. Each of those countries has a whole load of history behind them that you can't blame on the UN.



You mean like how it would be wrong to blame deaths based upon sectarian violence in Iraq on the us?

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Try and look at it from an Iraqi viewpoint rather than an american. Put yourself in an Iraqis shoes for a moment. Lets make it even more obvious, put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi who lost his family to american gunfire. Why might you prefer a UN presence in the street rather than a US one?



Are you an Iraqi? No? Then it's silly for you to claim to know "how they think".

As for me, if I was an Iraqi, prefering a UN presence in the street or a US one? Hmm...let's see...

The UN and the US both complained about corruption and oppression in my government, which I was powerless to change...but who actually DID something about it?

Furthermore, who would the UN send? The same peacekeepers that ESTABLISHED a child-prostitution ring in Bunia, Congo? Or just the ones who decapitated 13 year old girls after raping them in Sierra Leone? Maybe they'd send the same peacekeepers that happily stood by while the Rwanda genocide happened, armed but unwilling to intervene...

No thanks, I'll take the US forces.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5839407 - 07/09/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
It sets the example. If you commit a war crime - and starting a war of aggression is the ULTIMATE war crime - then you face justice.



And you honestly believe that President Bush deserved prosecution more than say...the government of Angola?

They started a war of aggression, committed massive human rights violations in the process, haven't even attempted to police their own military forces (when a US soldier commits a crime, he's brought to justice, not so in Angola).


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5839439 - 07/09/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The only war of aggression was instigated by Saddam. There was a cease fire with terms he was to abide by. He failed to abide. The war was resumed. Same war. What were you 7 years old for the Kuwait invasion, Alex? Did you get all of your knowledge of this from the Ward Churchills of the world?


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5839620 - 07/09/06 05:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The only war of aggression was instigated by Saddam. There was a cease fire with terms he was to abide by. He failed to abide. The war was resumed. Same war. What were you 7 years old for the Kuwait invasion, Alex? Did you get all of your knowledge of this from the Ward Churchills of the world?




Way to keep it civil zappa. How does age have anything to do with the history of a world event. I dont remember how the American Revolution took part because i wasnt born then but most people have a good idea of it. Your logic is flawed.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5839914 - 07/09/06 06:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I was civil.
I have read and heard so much bullshit written about the seventies and what went on that I just shake my head in wonderment. Almost everybody I know who lived through it agrees with me. The same goes for the Iraq situation. Todays 20 somethings never knew that it was an absolutely no brainer that Saddam did a hideous thing invading Kuwait and had to be dealt with. You do know that he basicly lit the whole country on fire when he retreated, don't you? Or did you "forget" that part? That's just one example of shit that gets glossed over. Or the Kuwaiti prisoners he never released. No, it's very different when you experience something in real time as opposed to reading about it in your lefty-tinged texts. I do not mean to infer or impute in any way that I was part of any operation. I was just an aware individual when decisions were being made and news was happening. It is very different. You'll see.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5841109 - 07/10/06 12:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I also note that there isn't much mention in the above of any "hope" that the S. Vietnamese would be able to hold them off.

Read it again.

Oh we certainly had the strength to prevail, just not the will. This is what we called at the time "face saving bullshit." As I noted previously, and fully expected, you certainly were able to find one of those liars. And Nixon was a world champion liar. But nobody believed them then. Not even their dogs.


What are you talking about? My point is the same story is being recycled from Vietnam for Iraq.

Several nations have similarly concluded that that was one of several legally (what legally? The UN?)acceptable reasons.

Source?

Failure to comply with the inspections was enough all by itself.

Wrong. That's why the UN refused to have anything to do with it.

You're the only person I ever saw put "make Iraqi security forces stronger" in the context of justification.


You're not making any sense. Staying there until the Iraqi security forces are stronger is the justification for staying in Iraq now. You claimed it was the justification for invading.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5841121 - 07/10/06 12:52 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

By my point was that this can't be backed up by anything. You can "think" the UN would do a better job in Iraq than TATU, or the US, or anyone, but there's no proof.


So is there proof the US will?

In 60 years of peacekeeping, decolonization, and nation building, the UN has failed to have 1 success story. Not ONE. Why should Iraqis trust an organization with such a history of failure?


No, I'm not buying this. Just like I'm not buying you're idea that everything the US touches turns into a paradise.

You mean like how it would be wrong to blame deaths based upon sectarian violence in Iraq on the us?


If the US hadn't invaded would those deaths be happening or not?

Are you an Iraqi? No? Then it's silly for you to claim to know "how they think".


You don't have to be an Iraqi to know how you react when foreigners invade your country and rape and slaughter your family. You just have to be human.

The UN and the US both complained about corruption and oppression in my government, which I was powerless to change...but who actually DID something about it?


In the process turning the place into the most dangerous country on earth where gangs roam Baghdad pulling people out of cars and slaughtering them at will? I'm not sure I'd consider that a positive if I lived in Baghdad.

The same peacekeepers that ESTABLISHED a child-prostitution ring in Bunia, Congo? Or just the ones who decapitated 13 year old girls after raping them in Sierra Leone? Maybe they'd send the same peacekeepers that happily stood by while the Rwanda genocide happened, armed but unwilling to intervene...
No thanks, I'll take the US forces.


Yeah, the ones who rape 16 year olds and then slaughter their entire families, massacre civilians and shoot handicapped people in the face.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5841127 - 07/10/06 12:55 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Todays 20 somethings never knew that it was an absolutely no brainer that Saddam did a hideous thing invading Kuwait and had to be dealt with. You do know that he basicly lit the whole country on fire when he retreated, don't you?

What is this? "Make up a different excuse every time your other excuse gets demolished?".

It's a no-brainer that Iraq wasn't invaded in 2003 because Saddam set the oil wells on fire in 1991. Not even Bush claimed that as an excuse.

I was just an aware individual when decisions were being made and news was happening. It is very different. You'll see.

You obviously wern't that aware. You hadn't even heard of Vietnamization before I told you about it.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5841710 - 07/10/06 09:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

If you're not buying that the UN can't fix Iraq, then show us a success story.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5841759 - 07/10/06 09:25 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Too vague a question, too big a topic.

Here's a book that will give you more information (350 pages and this is just the first volume):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0833035894/202-6161480-8395844?v=glance&n=266239


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5841777 - 07/10/06 09:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not reading a book to answer a single question. If you think the UN can do a better job than the US, what history of the UN leads you to believe this?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5841784 - 07/10/06 09:32 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well what do you mean by "success"? The US invasion of Iraq could be seen as a succes by some people and as a failure by others. The invasion of Afghanistan could be considered a success in one way and a failure in another. We could go on describing the successes and failures of different UN or US operations forever. There's no easy simple, pat answer.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5841791 - 07/10/06 09:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Stop beating around the bushes and give me an example of a nation that the UN built that has been stable afterwards.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5841804 - 07/10/06 09:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

El Salvador, Eastern Slavonia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Sierra Leone.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5841810 - 07/10/06 09:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you; that's all I wanted.

I have some reading to do now, it seems. :wink:


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5841878 - 07/10/06 10:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It's not about getting the UN in there NEARLY as much as getting the Americans the fuck out...
(Although I don't see the UN doing anywhere as much harm as the Coalition has in a million years)

They've proved their point, they can spend more money than anyone else in the world to accomplish huge numbers of meaningless killings... but there's nothing left to gain anymore.

To (think) this was said to be a war to disarm weapons of mass destruction... obviously it's only been an excuse to use them...


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Know your source.

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Edited by ExplosiveMango (07/10/06 11:56 AM)


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #5842147 - 07/10/06 11:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

To this was said to be a war to disarm weapons of mass destruction... obviously it's only been an excuse to use them...




What is just absolutely amazing, is how clear a lie can be to some yet still others are completely incapable of seeing the elephant in the living room.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5842289 - 07/10/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
El Salvador, Eastern Slavonia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Sierra Leone.



I seriously hope you're kidding about these, but I'll take them one-by-one:

El Salvador - Calling this a UN success story is the same as calling the resolution of the American Revolution a French success story. The reality is that both sides agreed to end the fighting and both sides asked the UN to mediate:
Quote:

From the UN Website:
In September 1989, following a formal request from the Government of El Salvador and the Frente Farabundo Martรญ para la Liberaciรณn Nacional (FMLN), the Secretary-General began assisting in talks aimed at ending the civil war in that country. The first major accord was achieved in 1990, when the parties agreed to ensure respect for human rights. To verify this and future agreements, the Security Council established in 1991 the United Nations Observer Mission in El Salvador (ONUSAL).



It's not a nationbuilding success story if all the UN did was mediate talks between two groups who already agreed that they wanted a negotiated peace. If all the rebel groups in Iraq suddenly decided they wanted peace and formally requested mediated negotiations, this might be an applicable success story. As they haven't, the resolution in El Salvador doesn't apply.

Eastern Slavonia - This was part of one of the least successful operations in UN history. A UN Peacekeeping force was deployed to hold the Croatians apart from the Serbs in four separate "Protected Areas". The UN utterly failed and the Croatians occupied three of the four protected areas within a few months of fighting. The UN then basically agreed to give Eastern Slavonia back to Croatia in an effort to stop the Croatian offensive from spreading. So, if Eastern Slavonia is a UN "success story", then the Peace Accord between the US and North Vietnam is a "success story" for the US.

Bosnia - Well, let's see, the ceasefire in Bosnia was negotiated by US Secretary of State Richard Holbrooke, the Bosnian army came to the negotiation tables after being bombed by NATO forces, and was decimated on the ground by Croation forces which the UN failed to stop (same offensive mentioned above under Eastern Slavonia). And you're calling this a "UN Success Story"? Considering the UN didn't provide the military, didn't bring anyone to the table, and didn't get the initial agreement negotiated, there's no way this can be considered a UN success story. Infact, given how big a role NATO and US played, Bosnia might even be a US success story.

Kosovo - Same as Bosnia, Kosovo was a success story for NATO and the US, not the UN

Sierra Leone - God I hope you're joking with this one. Where to begin? Was this a UN success story because UN Peacekeepers successfully carried out a systematic rape of the women of Sierra Leone? ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/01/17/wleon17.xml ) Was this a UN Success story because it took 3 years from the time of UN deployment for a national election to be held, and 5 years for any local election? Was it a success because hundreds of UN Peacekeepers who were deployed without training and weapons were captured by rebel groups and used as hostages to renegotiate the ceasefire? And if 2002 and 2004 elections were at all successful, why did the UN have to send a new mission in 2006 with the stated goal of "to build capacity to hold free and fair elections in 2007"?

Hell, if Sierra Leone is a UN Success, then the current operation in Iraq is the mother of all successes.

No, I'm sorry, none of these are UN success stories. That is most likely because the UN has NO success stories.

And, nice try mischaracterizing me as thinking the US is "pure as the driven snow". The US makes loads of mistakes. The difference is, I've never claimed that the situation in Iraq will notably improve if any specific action is taken. Alex213, you have claimed that the situation will improve if the UN takes over, and I am still waiting for some justification of that.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5843036 - 07/10/06 03:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Todays 20 somethings never knew that it was an absolutely no brainer that Saddam did a hideous thing invading Kuwait and had to be dealt with. You do know that he basicly lit the whole country on fire when he retreated, don't you?

What is this? "Make up a different excuse every time your other excuse gets demolished?".




You continue to make my point that you have absolutely no concept of what transpired 15 years ago. Thank you.
Quote:



It's a no-brainer that Iraq wasn't invaded in 2003 because Saddam set the oil wells on fire in 1991. Not even Bush claimed that as an excuse.




And that your reading skills are weak.
Quote:



I was just an aware individual when decisions were being made and news was happening. It is very different. You'll see.

You obviously wern't that aware. You hadn't even heard of Vietnamization before I told you about it.




Oh, I heard about it, the word wasn't at all unfamiliar. It's just that I knew it was a lie told to save face. Utter bullshit from a master bullshit artist. It was total fucking nonsense. And everybody knew it. The difference between me and you is that you pick up a book and find a convenient quotation from a discredited loon and think it reflected the times. I was around and know better. Ask anybody else who was alive then and paying attention if they thought S. Vietnam would hold. We all knew they were being handed a death sentence. You don't know that because you are lost in the universe of convenient quotes. You will wade through miles and miles of contradictory information to find the one true nitwit who agrees with you and then present that opinion as fact. You are not a seeker of knowledge. You are a wannabe pontiff.

The difference between then and now is that there is actually a real chance for Iraq to govern itself. There never was any chance that S. Vietnam could hold off the commies without us. None. Ever.

So, who's term paper was it that you quoted as an authoritative source? Yours? Or the kid down the hall? And why do you keep doing that?


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5843648 - 07/10/06 06:17 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Bosnia - Well, let's see, the ceasefire in Bosnia was negotiated by US Secretary of State Richard Holbrooke, the Bosnian army came to the negotiation tables after being bombed by NATO forces, and was decimated on the ground by Croation forces which the UN failed to stop (same offensive mentioned above under Eastern Slavonia). And you're calling this a "UN Success Story"? Considering the UN didn't provide the military, didn't bring anyone to the table, and didn't get the initial agreement negotiated, there's no way this can be considered a UN success story. Infact, given how big a role NATO and US played, Bosnia might even be a US success story.




Where are you getting your facts from? The bosnian army was never bombed by Coalition forces. In the 91 to 95 war, NATO started doing massive bombings of Serb and Montenegran positions throughout Bosnia, The Bosniaks had already pushed most of the forces and liberated about 85% of Bosnia from Chetnik forces. NATO entered the fray in 95 when the war was already coming to close.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5843900 - 07/10/06 07:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Where are you getting your facts from?



The UN Website, specifically the information on UNMIBH, the relevant UN peacekeeping mission.

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
The bosnian army was never bombed by Coalition forces. In the 91 to 95 war, NATO started doing massive bombings of Serb and Montenegran positions throughout Bosnia, The Bosniaks had already pushed most of the forces and liberated about 85% of Bosnia from Chetnik forces. NATO entered the fray in 95 when the war was already coming to close.



Yeah, I know this, I don't know why I posted just "Bosnian" before, I meant to post "Bosnian Serb" so as not to make it sound like Nato was bombing Serbia, but I guess I left out the key part, that being Serb, sorry about that.

In any case, the account still proves my point. NATO didn't get involved until late in the game, and the UN got involved AFTER the NATO forces were already there, so calling it a UN success story is silly.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5844517 - 07/10/06 09:35 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

True, if your also interested in some UN failures in Bosnia, Check out the Third World Relief Agency, It was a UN offshoot to ship arms to bosnian mujahadin with the arms embargo.

Or Srebenitsa Massacre where 2000 thousand something Dutch UN peacekeepers allowed more then 8,000 bosnian men to be executed by Serb forces.

UN is a absolute failure, i cant even mention the amount of bullshit they have done. In Rwanda they stood by and did nothing even though their were "peacekeepers" in the country, The only thing those "Peace Keepers" are good for is supporting the local brothel industry where ever they are stationed.

However saying the United States has done an outstanding job is a farce as well, United States has made terrible fuckups many times, The United Fruit takeover of Guatemala in the early 60,s, Starting the School Of Americas That trained mercenaries in the Various coups that we supported through out South America which led to massive destabilization through out the last 30 years.


To me i think the United States antithesis is slow burn guerrilla warfare, The Guerrillas use our weaknesses and attrition against us, we can kill thousands upon thousands of insurgents yet their is always another person to sling on a explosives belt, This is no coincidence.

The US's Management and mismanagement of the war is based purely on Moral grounds, Whoever has the highest moral ground usually has a positive outcome of a war. The problem with the United States is that for years we have prided ourselves as a Rule abiding nation, Yet today now with modern media, Events negative towards the war can be blared on news and internet daily, Worldwide news of the American Occupation is very negative, and the problem is, is we make it negative.

The Guerrillas can cut the heads off woman and innocent people, yet they can always recruit more people no matter what, they simply have the positive moral highground, and when a war is turned into this, it turns into a absolute warfare, which inevetibly will draw in civilians, and will more then likely lead to more destabilization.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5845409 - 07/11/06 12:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

El Salvador - Calling this a UN success story is the same as calling the resolution of the American Revolution a French success story. The reality is that both sides agreed to end the fighting and both sides asked the UN to mediate:


Neatly side-stepping the catastrophic role of the US in funding and training the death squads. Clearly US "nation-building" didn't go too well there. The UN contribution was peace. The US contribution was torture and death squads. I think most people in El Salvador will know which they prefer.

if all the UN did was mediate talks between two groups who already agreed that they wanted a negotiated peace

If it was that easy why couldn't the US do it?

Eastern Slavonia - This was part of one of the least successful operations in UN history

Bosnia - Well, let's see, the ceasefire in Bosnia was negotiated by US Secretary of State Richard Holbrooke, the Bosnian army came to the negotiation tables after being bombed by NATO forces, and was decimated on the ground by Croation forces


Could you provide your source for these versions of history? Or are you making them up yourself?

Alex213, you have claimed that the situation will improve if the UN takes over, and I am still waiting for some justification of that.

The US was involved in El Salvador for years. The result? Nothing but war, torture and death. The UN brokered peace.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5846839 - 07/11/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Neatly side-stepping the catastrophic role of the US in funding and training the death squads. Clearly US "nation-building" didn't go too well there. The UN contribution was peace. The US contribution was torture and death squads. I think most people in El Salvador will know which they prefer.



I didn't side-step anything. You're trying to use El Salvador as a proxy for Iraq. I pointed out the situations were radically different, and you have been unable to dispute that point.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
If it was that easy why couldn't the US do it?



Because the US didn't enter AFTER the conflict was over, the UN did. It's very easy to "broker" peace once both sides have already agreed to stop fighting.

Getting involved in El Salvador when the US did was a major mistake. I never said the US didn't make mistakes, despite your repeated attempts to put those words in my mouth. However, you have also yet to prove that the UN is capable of creating a peaceful resolution to any conflict on its own.

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Could you provide your source for these versions of history? Or are you making them up yourself?



Unlike you, I provide sources, you will see above that I suggested visiting the UN website for UNMIBH, if that's not good enough for you, check out the encarta article on the subject, you can find it at ( http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761563626_7/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina.html )

Also, since you're posting books, I would suggest reading this one ( http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=1401352014&itm=2 ) for a better look at the UN since it was written by people who actually did work "on the ground".

Quote:

Alex213 said:
The US was involved in El Salvador for years. The result? Nothing but war, torture and death. The UN brokered peace.



Again, as stated above, it's easy to "broker peace" if you only get involved once the fighting has stopped.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5847376 - 07/11/06 03:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I didn't side-step anything. You're trying to use El Salvador as a proxy for Iraq. I pointed out the situations were radically different




How many times have I seen people try to compare nation building in iraq to japan and germany on this board? You want to talk about radically different, where were you when those comparisons were made?


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5847495 - 07/11/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I never made the comparison to Germany, but I think the comparison to Japan holds up pretty well:

Populace prepared to defend their land to the death against Americans (remember who *invented* the kamikazi)
Massive devastation throughout the country
US had to build them a new government from the ground up, starting with the constitution

The only thing missing here is the sectarian conflict and religiously-based violence. So with respect to that, yes Japan is different. But it's not as different as El Salvador, where the sides fighting the conflict agreed to stop fighting and to begin talks *before* the UN got involed.

Besides, I shouldn't have to prove anything, Alex213 has repeatedly made the claim that the UN could do a better job in Iraq than the US, which is something I have yet to see him (or anyone else) demonstrate.


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5849530 - 07/12/06 12:51 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I didn't side-step anything. You're trying to use El Salvador as a proxy for Iraq. I pointed out the situations were radically different, and you have been unable to dispute that point.


Isn't that the trouble with your "The UN had problems in this country while the US had success in this country so that means the US is better..." tho? All countries and all involvements will be different. Different countries, different histories, different problems. That's why your comparisons don't work.

Because the US didn't enter AFTER the conflict was over, the UN did.

So what? If conflict was over anyway why didn't the US broker the peace?

It's very easy to "broker" peace once both sides have already agreed to stop fighting.


Obviously not for the US, otherwise they would have done it not the UN.

Unlike you, I provide sources, you will see above that I suggested visiting the UN website for UNMIBH

No, I asked you where you were getting your accounts of the UN involvement from. Accounts you wrote like this:

Eastern Slavonia - This was part of one of the least successful operations in UN history. A UN Peacekeeping force was deployed to hold the Croatians apart from the Serbs in four separate "Protected Areas". The UN utterly failed and the Croatians occupied three of the four protected areas within a few months of fighting. The UN then basically agreed to give Eastern Slavonia back to Croatia in an effort to stop the Croatian offensive from spreading. So, if Eastern Slavonia is a UN "success story", then the Peace Accord between the US and North Vietnam is a "success story" for the US.

You provided no source for this or any of your other accounts.

Again, as stated above, it's easy to "broker peace" if you only get involved once the fighting has stopped.

So if the US was involved, and then the fighting stopped all on it's own, are you citing El Salvador as example of successful US involvement?


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5849542 - 07/12/06 12:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
I never made the comparison to Germany, but I think the comparison to Japan holds up pretty well:

Populace prepared to defend their land to the death against Americans (remember who *invented* the kamikazi)
Massive devastation throughout the country
US had to build them a new government from the ground up, starting with the constitution

The only thing missing here is the sectarian conflict and religiously-based violence. So with respect to that, yes Japan is different.




Nah, there's massive differences between Japan and Iraq. Here's a few.

I have no doubt that huge numbers of Iraqis would welcome the end of repression and establishment of a democratic society, but any number of considerations make the situation there very different than it was in Japan. Apart from lacking the moral legitimacy and internal and global support that buttressed its occupation of Japan, the United States is not in the business of nation-building any more - just look at Afghanistan. And we certainly are not in the business of promoting radical democratic reform. Even liberal ideals are anathema in the conservative circles that shape U.S. policy today. And beyond this, many of the conditions that contributed to the success of the occupation of Japan are simply absent in Iraq.

The reforms that were introduced in the opening year and a half or so of the occupation were quite stunning. They amounted to a sweeping commitment to what we now call 'nation-building' - the sort of hands-on commitment that George W. Bush explicitly repudiated in his presidential campaign. The Americans introduced in Japan a major land reform, for example, that essentially took land from rich landlords, eliminated widespread tenancy, and created a class of small rural landowners. The argument for this was that rural oppression had kept the countryside poor, thwarted democracy, constricted the domestic market, and fuelled the drive to control overseas markets. We introduced labour laws that guaranteed the right to organize, bargain collectively, and strike, on the grounds that a viable labour movement is essential to any viable democracy. We encouraged the passage of a strong labour standards law to prevent exploitation of workers including women and children. We revamped both the content and structure of the educational system. In all this the input of Japanese bureaucrats and technocrats was essential to implement such reforms, and serious grass-roots support was basic to their survival.

One of our major initiatives was to create an entirely new constitution. There were no citizens in Japan in 1945. There was no popular sovereignty. Under the existing constitution, sovereignty was vested in the emperor and all Japanese were his 'subjects.' So, the Americans drafted - but the Japanese translated, debated, tinkered with, and adopted - a new national charter that remains one of the most progressive constitutions in the world. The emperor became a 'symbol' of the state. An extensive range of human and civil rights was guaranteed - including an explicit guarantee of gender equality. Belligerency of the state was repudiated. Changing the constitution meant, moreover, that much of the civil code had to be rewritten to conform to these new strictures concerning equality and guaranteed rights. Although the occupation ended in 1952 and there are no restrictions on amending the constitution, not a word of it has been changed.

John Stuart Mill has a wonderful line somewhere to the effect that a country can be laid waste by fire and sword, but in and of itself this really doesn't matter where recovery is concerned. What matters is not so much what is destroyed but rather what human resources survive. Even though Japan had been laid to ruin by the terror-bombing of its cities, what survived was an exceptionally literate populace whose long war effort had, in fact, contributed to great and widespread advances in technological and technocratic skills. At the same time this was an essentially homogeneous populace that had been mobilized behind a common national cause.

The failure and discredit of the cause did not destroy this general sense of collective national purpose. It meant, however, that these great human resources were available to be mobilized to new ends that were more peaceful and progressive. Put simply, one of the reasons the reformist agenda succeeded is that Japan was spared the type of fierce ethnic, religious, and political factionalism that exists in countries like Iraq today.


http://www.historyandpolicy.org/archive/policy-paper-10.html


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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5893253 - 07/24/06 01:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Sorry for taking so long to reply, I had several major projects come up and didn't have time for Shroomery debating,  :frown: .

I read the article and found it interesting.  I was personally taken aback because I've studied Japan quite a bit (as a hopeully-one-day economist the Meiji Restoration is one of the most interesting bits of history in the world) and I've always found John Dower to have brilliant insights.  He's easily THE leading scholar on Japan in America (albeit most of his studies take place post-WWII, so not really in the period I'm interested in, but I've read his stuff nonetheless).

At any rate, I'm forced to conclude that his lust for peace (he's a HUGE peace-at-all-costs advocate) have lead him to try and influece policy here, in a way that's somewhat sloppy, as his other work is great, and I'd usually recommend him.

I don't really have time to attack the whole piece, so I'll just point out the parts I really take issue with:

1) In trying to point out that Iraq is different from Japan, he makes the following descriptive arguments about Japan:
Quote:

There were no citizens in Japan in 1945. There was no popular sovereignty. Under the existing constitution, sovereignty was vested in the emperor and all Japanese were his 'subjects.' So, the Americans drafted - but the Japanese translated, debated, tinkered with, and adopted - a new national charter that remains one of the most progressive constitutions in the world.




The implication, of course, is that there was some semblance of all of this in Iraq.  I take major issue with that.  I simply do not think that, despite what "guarantees" Saddam may have made to "the Iraqis" on paper, there was anything resembling citizenship in pre-invasion Iraq.  Could the Iraqis truly point to a set of rights that were guaranteed to all of them, and that the government would defend?  Surely that is the barest minimum of citizenship.

Similarly, Saddam did not rule by popular sovereignty.  He ruled by popular fear of bullets.  This may be different from some form of transcendant mandate, but I would argue that the end result was the same.  There was no popular sovereignty in Iraq pre-invasion either, so making the claim that Japan is somehow wildly different for this reason just doesn't do much.

Quote:

What made the occupation of Japan a success was two years or so of genuine reformist idealism before U.S. policy became consumed by the Cold War, coupled with a real Japanese embrace of the opportunity to start over.



He goes on at some length about FDR and liberalism and such.

I don't think this is something that I'll be able to change any minds over, but suffice it to say that I don't buy it, and neither do most practitioners of neo-liberal economics.

Japan had a quick recovery because business models in Japan were, by some happy coincidence, VERY similar to business models in the US.  Professional managers were comonplace, the idea of the corporation had been in place since the 1880s, and there was a developed property law that went back to the 1600s.  (I don't have time to find a better citation right now, but on the off chance you have access to it I would recommend "Company: A Short History of a Revolutionary Idea" by Micklethwait and Wooldridge)

This made it easy to hand out grants, contracts, etc. and made it easy to organize "the means of production" without excessive government involvement.

The point I'm making with all of this is that the argument relating to America's "idealism" of 1945 being responsible for anything is debatable at best.

Dower's last big point is about "moral highground" and "moral mandate".  I'd get a quote, but it's pretty ubiquitous in the piece, so I'm hoping you'll take my word on it.

On this point, again, I just don't buy into it.  When Saddam fell there was partying in the streets, and while polls show that Iraqis are not happy with the "present situation" the polls have also been unchanging in the fact that the Iraqi's believe firmly that things will get better in the future.

To me this means that there's at least some "moral mandate" in the eyes of the Iraqis.  So, what's left is to examine where the moral mandate doesn't exist:
1) In the United States: It definitely doesn't exist here.  A majority of Americans think the invasion was a mistake.  However, this would only result in reconstruction failing if belief that the invasion was a mistake results in a horrendous under-allocation of resources.  But the same could be said about any endevor: if we do it half-assed it will fail.
2) In the Arab World: This is also a problem, but I don't think any worse than in the WWII scenario.  Consider this: while the Americans had an international mandate in the occupation of Japan, they had a major enemy in its reconstruction: The Soviet Union.  The Soviets hated the idea of the US getting to rebuild Japan all by its lonesome, since that would likely result in a capitalist Japan.  The Arab World at large cannot be any scarier than the 1946 Soviet Union, so I'm going to write this off as a loss.
3) Everyone not in the coalition: America also doesn't have a moral mandate here.  France and Germany made their stance pretty clear.  By my question then is: What does it matter?  France and Germany are not about to retard to process of rebuilding Iraq, and major corporations from both countries have (in one way or another) already been involved.

So, from all of this, I'm simply left to question the validity of Dower's argument about the moral high ground, since the only major difference would be from US voters choosing to fail in Iraq.

Now, I can see why anyone would agree with much of this, but it doesn't really matter, because I just don't think it has much bearing on this topic.

While I believe that the US would do a better job (in the long run) than the UN, you don't have to buy that argument in order for the topic of this thread to be refuted.

I simply fail to see a reason beyong "they can't do a worse job..." why the UN should take over in Iraq.  And since "they can't do a worse job..." is an argument inherently without weight, I've yet to see anything supporting the main idea of this thread.


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