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Alex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
#5827101 - 07/06/06 10:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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The real difference is that the US has had historical success in terms of nation building. Look at Japan and South Korea
Why not look at Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia too?
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Economist
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
#5827409 - 07/06/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: On Grenada - Your talking about 1 year after the invasion
Why limit ourselves to after the invasion? We could talk the years before the invasion where Noreiga was considered an ally of the US. The list of brutal dictatorships who are allies of the US is as long as your arm. Uzbekistan for examples boils opponents alive. The US is a strong ally of Uzbekistan.
Dude, sorry to tell you this, but you're thinking of Panama here, not Grenada. Incidentally, post-US invasion Panama has held regular free and open elections just like Grenada.
As for your point about the US being allies with brutal dictators, that has nothing to do with this discussion. No matter how many brutal dictators are allied with the US, even more are members of the UN and the point of this discussion is whether or not the UN would do a better job in Iraq than the US.
Quote:
Alex213 said: Nah, nation-building costs a helluva lot more money than Bush wants to spend in Iraq. More money has been robbed from Iraq than is being spent on rebuilding the place.
Can you back this up with anything? Either proof that more money has been "robbed" from Iraq than it would cost to a quote from Bush saying that he's unwilling to spend rebuilding monies?
The drop in reconstruction funds relates to increased security spending to fight the insurgency. Bush has never stated that the monetary aid with end the moment the insurgency dries up, and there have been no claims made about what aid will be offered to Iraq after the troops leave. So, what statements made by the Bush administration would you say are "proof" that they have no intention of rebuilding Iraq.
Quote:
Alex213 said: Also, still waiting on a UN nation-building success story...
I'm still waiting on a US one to be honest.
And it would be a point worth arguing if this thread was about whether or not the US had a good chance of successfully rebuilding Iraq.
But that's not the claim that started this thread. This thread was started with the claim that the UN should take over for the US. I believe that such a claim should be backed up by at least 1 UN success story, otherwise there's no good reason for the UN to take over.
Also, I'd still point to South Korea, Japan, Panama, and Grenada, as I did before. If there was a thread about how Japan was different, I didn't see it, as I've yet to see anything that shows a failure in democracy after the US invasions and rebuilding missions in Panama and Grenada.
Edited by Economist (07/06/06 12:00 PM)
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Economist
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
#5827435 - 07/06/06 11:59 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: The real difference is that the US has had historical success in terms of nation building. Look at Japan and South Korea
Why not look at Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia too?
Well, let's see:
Vietnam - We don't know how successful elections would have been in South Vietnam, because it was invaded by North Vietnam
Laos - Last I checked the US didn't execute any sort of regime-change here, troops entered briefly, but the Laotian government was never the target
Cambodia - Funny story, as with Laos the US never attempted to set up a democracy in Cambodia...but the UN did! In one of the largest deployments in the history of the UN (about 17,000 personnel, including 15,000 peacekeepers from 1992-1993) And what a failure that's been.
On Aghanistan - Last I checked, putting a Canadian in charge of rebuilding efforts in no way signals a US withdrawl. US troops are currently involved in a offensive, but that doesn't mean they're going to leave the second the offensive is over, they'll just go back to rebuilding...
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The_Red_Crayon
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
#5827559 - 07/06/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Vietnam - The government(The Diem Regime) we put into a power was despised by most of the people. When the buddhists would protest the regime by setting themselves on fire he referred to them as "Roadside Barbecues" He was deposed by his own military which made Vietnam even more unstable. Our only hope of success was the immediate training of ARVN forces. If the US military concentrated on the bombing of Vietnamese infrastructure in Hanoi the war could of possibly been won, By the time US forces left in 1973. In two years the US trained ARVN were completely routed by 1975 during the fall of Saigon.
Cambodia- Our training of the local indians and Khmers was negated by the Rise and power of Pol Pot, who systematically emptied all the cities and infrastructure and engaged in a 2-3 year genocide that left most intellectuals dead. Cambodia was invaded by the North Vietnamese and they uncovered absolutely derelict cities and they completely routed the Khmers.
Afghanistan- Is about as stable as Dagestan or Chechnya. The Puppet president we put into power has to constantly have shit tons of security because of all the attempts on his life. The only places that have security are large towns. The rest of the country is controlled by militans,drug lords, taliban and anyone else who may or may not be allied with the Coalition.
Laos- Our CIA and military advisors were in this country since the early 60's training the local indian populations to fight communism. Didnt really help much.
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Economist
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#5827609 - 07/06/06 01:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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So, as you outlined, in none of those instances did the US government actually execute regime change and try to build up a new government from scratch (as the US did in Japan, Panama, Grenada, and is trying to do in Iraq).
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The_Red_Crayon
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
#5827855 - 07/06/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said: So, as you outlined, in none of those instances did the US government actually execute regime change and try to build up a new government from scratch (as the US did in Japan, Panama, Grenada, and is trying to do in Iraq).
All those countries are a microcosm compared to Iraq. We never counted on Rival ethnicities all vying for a power vaccuum in Iraq. Iraq will more then likely be split up into autonomous regions similar to the Balkans, This would more then likely make it easier to control.
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Basilides
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
#5828814 - 07/06/06 06:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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The US didn't "occupy" Somalia. The whole mess started when the UN attempted to launch a poorly planned and executed humanitarian effort that got ambushed by militants. The US didn't like the prospect of militants killing humanitarian workers so they sent in reinforcements. Then some marines died, a manhunt ensued that resulted in more discombobulation before eventually they hightailed it out of there. You seem to think that very single US military action in history has somekind of "occupation" conspiracy to it.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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DinahTheCat
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Basilides]
#5829097 - 07/06/06 07:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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"War is important for consuming the products of human labour. If this work would be used to increase the standard of living, the control of the party over the people would decrease. War is the economy basis for a hierarchical society."
"the consciousness of being at war, and therefore in danger, makes the handing-over of all power to a small caste seem the natural, unavoidable condition of survival."
-------------------- "Sanity is not statistical."
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Alex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
#5830404 - 07/07/06 02:09 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Dude, sorry to tell you this, but you're thinking of Panama here, not Grenada
I'm talking Grenada before the US invaded. Noreiga was never an ally of the US? Was Saddam ever an ally of the US?
post-US invasion Panama has held regular free and open elections just like Grenada.
The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, despite some improvements, there continued to be serious problems in several areas. Overall prison conditions remained harsh, with reports of abuse by prison guards. Prolonged pretrial detention was a problem. The judiciary was subject to corruption and political manipulation, and the criminal justice system was inefficient and often corrupt. Despite these shortcomings, the Supreme Court ruled repeatedly that the statute of limitations would not bar cases involving killings and disappearances during the 1968-89 military dictatorship. The media were subject to political pressure, libel suits, and punitive action by government officials. Women held some high positions in the Government, including the presidency for most of the year; however, discrimination against women persisted, and violence against women remained a serious problem. Trafficking in persons was a problem despite improved anti-trafficking laws and publicity and a government crack down on traffickers. Discrimination against indigenous people and minorities continued to be a problem. The Government improved its treatment of refugees and its attention to the persons with disabilities. Child labor was a problem.
And you agree that there's a long list of US allies who are savage dictatorships?
Can you back this up with anything? Either proof that more money has been "robbed" from Iraq than it would cost to a quote from Bush saying that he's unwilling to spend rebuilding monies?
9 billion "missing", 300 million spent.
Last year the congressional team reported that almost $9bn in Iraqi oil revenues disbursed to ministries had gone missing.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1765048,00.html
When Paul Bremer, the American pro consul in Baghdad until June last year, arrived in Iraq soon after the official end of hostilities, there was $6bn left over from the UN Oil for Food Programme, as well as sequestered and frozen assets, and at least $10bn from resumed Iraqi oil exports. Under Security Council Resolution 1483, passed on May 22 2003, all these funds were transferred into a new account held at the Federal Reserve Bank in New York, called the Development Fund for Iraq (DFI), and intended to be spent by the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) "in a transparent manner ... for the benefit of the Iraqi people".
The US Congress also voted to spend $18.4bn of US taxpayers' money on the redevelopment of Iraq. By June 28 last year, however, when Bremer left Baghdad two days early to avoid possible attack on the way to the airport, his CPA had spent up to $20bn of Iraqi money, compared with $300m of US funds.
The auditors have so far referred more than a hundred contracts, involving billions of dollars paid to American personnel and corporations, for investigation and possible criminal prosecution. They have also discovered that $8.8bn that passed through the new Iraqi government ministries in Baghdad while Bremer was in charge is unaccounted for, with little prospect of finding out where it has gone. A further $3.4bn appropriated by Congress for Iraqi development has since been siphoned off to finance "security".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1522983,00.html
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Alex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
#5830413 - 07/07/06 02:12 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Vietnam - We don't know how successful elections would have been in South Vietnam, because it was invaded by North Vietnam
Laos - Last I checked the US didn't execute any sort of regime-change here, troops entered briefly, but the Laotian government was never the target
Cambodia - Funny story, as with Laos the US never attempted to set up a democracy in Cambodia...but the UN did! In one of the largest deployments in the history of the UN (about 17,000 personnel, including 15,000 peacekeepers from 1992-1993) And what a failure that's been.
Do you believe the US has ever made a mistake in attacking other countries? Or is it purer than the driven snow? Do those millions of people the US killed in south east asia count for anything?
US troops are currently involved in a offensive, but that doesn't mean they're going to leave the second the offensive is over, they'll just go back to rebuilding...
What "rebuilding" are they doing?
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Basilides
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
#5830435 - 07/07/06 02:33 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you're proposing an immediate withdrawal from Iraq before the Iraqi security forces are ept and ready, you're asking for a long term disaster in the region as opposed to a brief clusterfuck.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Alex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Basilides]
#5830448 - 07/07/06 02:50 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah but this is the same old story we got in Vietnam - "we are getting the South Vietnamese to take over the war". Staying is just going to prolong the agony for decades. At the rate the Iraqi army are going it will be 2106 before the US is ready to pull out.
All we can do is pull out, let the UN find a role and make sure Bush is prosecuted as a war criminal so the next president will think twice before causing a clusterfuck.
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Economist
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
#5831671 - 07/07/06 01:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: Do you believe the US has ever made a mistake in attacking other countries? Or is it purer than the driven snow? Do those millions of people the US killed in south east asia count for anything?
I definitely think the US has made mistakes, and Iraq is a huge one.
However, I am not proposing that the UN would do a better job, that is the suggestion you are supporting.
I have yet to see you provide ANY evidence WHATSOEVER that the UN could do a better job than the US. The UN is every bit as corrupt as the US, the UN has had no successful nationbuilding stories, and the UN is RUN by governments that have far worse human rights records than the US could ever have.
Alex213 you have claimed that the UN should take over, now I'm asking for some evidence on your part that they are even remotely capable of taking over.
EDIT - On Grenada: Alex 213 you ARE thinking of Panama specifically because Noriega WAS NEVER A RULER OF GRENADA, he was, however, a dictator in Panama...
On Bush as a "war criminal": You better be joking. That is the biggest load of bull I have ever heard. The invasion of Iraq was a huge mistake, but if you want someone prosecuted on warcrimes, Bush is nowhere near the one to start with. Are you seriously suggesting that Bush is more deserving of prosecution than figures like Jiang Xemin, Vladimir Putin, any member of the Sudanese government, etc. et al.
If the international community was really going to spend the time and effort to prosecute a government, the US looks like the all-time champion of human rights compared to China, Russia, Sudan, Iran, the DR Congo, Papua New Guinea, Haiti, the list could go on for quite a while. Saying that Bush deserves prosecution when none of the leaders in those countries have ever been brought to justice just sounds whiny and juvenile.
Edited by Economist (07/07/06 01:28 PM)
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zappaisgod
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
#5832823 - 07/07/06 06:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex213 said: Yeah but this is the same old story we got in Vietnam - "we are getting the South Vietnamese to take over the war". Staying is just going to prolong the agony for decades. At the rate the Iraqi army are going it will be 2106 before the US is ready to pull out.
All we can do is pull out, let the UN find a role and make sure Bush is prosecuted as a war criminal so the next president will think twice before causing a clusterfuck.
"The same old story we got?" Were you even a fetus then? No, grasshopper, the justification for the US taking over the French position in Vietnam was to prevent the spread of communism and the mass murder of the S. Vietnamese. Both of which happened when we left. That worked out well.
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DinahTheCat
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5833583 - 07/07/06 10:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I suggest we use the same method i use in the bedroom for Iraq: pull out quick, and hope none of your (sea)men are left behind.
-------------------- "Sanity is not statistical."
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DinahTheCat
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: DinahTheCat]
#5833591 - 07/07/06 10:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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since the "fighting zone" has already been "fucked" enough, hawr hawr funny, no thats not really wot i think on this, its more complicated than that, but i wanted to make a funy.
-------------------- "Sanity is not statistical."
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Alex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
#5834177 - 07/08/06 02:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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However, I am not proposing that the UN would do a better job, that is the suggestion you are supporting.
So what are the alternatives? The US continues as it is? Do you think things will suddenly come good?
The UN is every bit as corrupt as the US, the UN has had no successful nationbuilding stories, and the UN is RUN by governments that have far worse human rights records than the US could ever have.
Well the UN is largely run by the US. Always has been. That's why Israel and the US can break scores of UN resolutions and never get any action taken them against them. Of course when it's someone the US doesn't like breaking a UN resolution means war.
I have yet to see you provide ANY evidence WHATSOEVER that the UN could do a better job than the US
It's hard to see how they could do any worse. At least they might not face the same hatred from the Iraqi people.
The invasion of Iraq was a huge mistake
I don't think it was a mistake at all. I think it was planned for years and finally they came up with an excuse (WMD) that they thought they could con the american public with. It was a good con. It worked.
Now the guy who conned us and slaughtered countless thousands of innocent people needs to pay for it.
Saying that Bush deserves prosecution when none of the leaders in those countries have ever been brought to justice just sounds whiny and juvenile.
It sets the example. If you commit a war crime - and starting a war of aggression is the ULTIMATE war crime - then you face justice.
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Alex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5834189 - 07/08/06 02:05 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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"The same old story we got?" Were you even a fetus then? No, grasshopper, the justification for the US taking over the French position in Vietnam was to prevent the spread of communism and the mass murder of the S. Vietnamese. Both of which happened when we left. That worked out well.
You were around but it sounds like you never paid too much attention.
Soon after taking office. President Richard Nixon introduced his policy of "vietnamization". The plan was to encourage the South Vietnamese to take more responsibility for fighting the war. It was hoped that this policy would eventually enable the United States to withdraw gradually all their soldiers from Vietnam.
Does the story sound familiar?
Incidentally, the justification for invading Iraq wasn't "To make the Iraqi security services stronger and then leave". It was WMD.
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Phred
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
#5834536 - 07/08/06 09:14 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Alex213 writes:
Quote:
If you commit a war crime - and starting a war of aggression is the ULTIMATE war crime - then you face justice.
Only if someone steps up to the plate to serve justice. The only reason Saddam Hussein is facing justice today for his ULTIMATE war crimes is because Italy, Spain, Poland, Australia, the US, the UK and other member nations of the Coalition stepped up to the plate.
Phred
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Alex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Phred]
#5834918 - 07/08/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Only if someone steps up to the plate to serve justice
So who'se going to dispense justice to Big George?
Spain, Poland, Australia
Don't forget the Federated Islands of Micronesia..
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