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InvisibleAlex213
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Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck?
    #5822969 - 07/05/06 09:54 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Only a UN-led peace process can halt the Iraq catastrophe

The British and American governments like to pretend that things are getting better in Iraq. They are wrong. The facts belie their optimism. Between 2004 and 2005 the number of car and roadside bombs doubled, and suicide bombs trebled. Electricity supplies and oil production are still below prewar levels. Iraq stands on the threshold of civil war. The illegal invasion, launched on a flawed prospectus and with little understanding of the consequences, has resulted in the deaths of about 3,000 coalition soldiers, 40,000 civilians and many UN and humanitarian workers.

Since 2003 the coalition has met neither its obligations nor its objectives. There was a catastrophic failure to plan for postwar Iraq, followed by misjudgment and incompetence. This has been overlaid by a disproportionate use of military force, including gross human rights abuses. There are nearly 30,000 people being held without trial in Iraq. These failures and misjudgments have perpetuated the insurgency, increased corruption and criminality, and inhibited improvements to the lives of Iraqis. We must now face the possibility that Iraq could become a failed state. That would have devastating economic and security consequences for the region, and would risk taking the current humanitarian disaster to a completely new level.

The catalogue of errors means the capacity of the UK and the US to play a positive role in redeeming the situation is severely diminished. The legitimacy of the coalition, always questionable, is now simply not accepted by most Iraqis. A 2005 poll for the British Ministry of Defence found that eight out of 10 Iraqis strongly opposed the presence of coalition forces. Between 70%-90% want to see a timeline for the withdrawal of coalition troops.

Faced with this reality, the British and American governments seem to be in denial. The last time the British government allotted parliamentary time for a full debate on Iraq was July 20 2004, which was only the second occasion since March 18 2003. It appears to be running scared of critical evaluation. The coalition does not have an exit strategy, nor does it have a strategy for staying. But to continue as it has been is not a credible option. The British and US governments require a coherent stabilisation and exit strategy. The early moves by Iraq's government of national unity to form a reconciliation plan are positive, but vague on detail.

The foundation of a new strategy should be a peace process led by the UN to accelerate national reconciliation and the internationalisation of support for Iraq. If the problems of internecine conflict within Iraq have international dimensions, so too must the solutions. A new strategy would seek to build on the policies set out by the Iraqi prime minister and work towards an international "compact", similar to that agreed with Afghanistan, setting out the commitments of all sides and a comprehensive security and reconstruction strategy.

Only an international solution can shore up the legitimacy and effectiveness of Iraq's government, improve the delivery of essential services and facilitate the end of the militarisation. Every further association with the US and the UK taints the Iraqi administration.

What should that solution contain? First, establishing a regional contact group would strengthen the engagement of Iraq's neighbours, and require them to play a constructive role in reconstruction. A contact group could play a significant role in talking to insurgent groups, improving border controls and promoting economic stability.

Second, enhanced measures to train, equip and professionalise Iraqi security forces are needed to de-politicise them and improve security. Coalition forces should move towards training, advising and equipping. Third, a comprehensive, UN-led disarmament, demobilisation and reintegration strategy is necessary to make a reality of the Iraqi prime minister's policy that the militias must merge with the national security forces.

Fourth, there should be an end to systematic indefinite detentions by Iraqi and US forces, and full access should be granted to UN human rights monitors and the Red Cross. Fifth, the reconstruction process must be expedited and legitimised (60% of Iraqis believe the UN should have the lead role). Increasing UNDP and the World Bank involvement would enhance transparency and accountability. Donors must play their part and deliver on their aid pledges.

Sixth, Iraq needs a programme for phased security transfer and withdrawal of coalition troops. The Iraqis view them as occupiers. A limited British withdrawal is taking place but US troops are redeploying in other parts of the country. The UK should aim to achieve a series of withdrawals, in parallel with the US, according to milestones in the stabilisation and reconstruction process. A transparent agreement with the Iraqi administration would help to counter the perception of occupation and illegitimacy.

I have been supportive of British efforts to bring stability to Iraq. But, support for the government cannot be unconditional. Unless it shows that it has learned from its failures and is ready to look afresh at the way out of the Iraqi quagmire, it will be impossible to justify the continuing presence of British forces in Iraq. With distressing regularity, the Commons pays tribute to the brave men and women who have lost their lives in Iraq. If the government cannot explain why it is necessary that they should make the ultimate sacrifice, then it must be prepared to bring them home.

ยท Menzies Campbell is leader of the Liberal Democrats

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1812812,00.html


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5822999 - 07/05/06 10:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Ah yes, the two most sucessful governments in the entire world cant' solve the Iraq problem, but if the UN gets put in charge, they'll wave their magic wand that Kofi stores in his desk (near the oil-for-food scammed money) and things will fall directly into place.


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Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5823001 - 07/05/06 10:11 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> Only a UN-led peace process can halt the Iraq catastrophe

Ah yes, because the UN has such a great history ...


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Seuss]
    #5823021 - 07/05/06 10:23 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

let's get out of the UN and then pull out of Iraq since they seem to know how to handle the situation properly. We can use the contractors coming to transport our troops and equipment out to bring the UN's in so we don't have to have our ships and planes dead heading in. That way they will be able to show us how much smarter and well prepared they are to make the world a happy place.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5823040 - 07/05/06 10:31 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Wow, wake up dude. The UN isn't going to stop two groups of bloodthirsty religious fanatics from tearing each ohters heads off any better than the US. Iraqis will be no more welcoming of an International led force versus the current coalition, it's all foreigners to the Iraqis.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5823259 - 07/05/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds good to me, it's high time we pull out of that shit hole waste of money, could care less if no one tries to clean it up. But if the UN thinks it can go for it heh.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5824168 - 07/05/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RosettaStoned said:somewhere
Sounds good to me, it's high time we pull out of that shit hole waste of money, could care less if no one tries to clean it up. But if the UN thinks it can go for it heh.




For a second there I thought you had managed to purchase a clue. Then I read the second sentence and realized you weren't talking about the UN.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Basilides]
    #5824205 - 07/05/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Wow, wake up dude. The UN isn't going to stop two groups of bloodthirsty religious fanatics from tearing each ohters heads off any better than the US. Iraqis will be no more welcoming of an International led force versus the current coalition, it's all foreigners to the Iraqis.




The UN hasn't slaughtered thousands of Iraqi's and led them around on dog leads. The US has. Big difference.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5824237 - 07/05/06 04:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

No, they were far to busy cornholing 8 year olds in Somalia and elsewhere.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5824253 - 07/05/06 04:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well, the US has cornholed plenty of Iraqis, maybe it's time they did a swap and took up cornholing somalians instead.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5824259 - 07/05/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

So, where's the improvement?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5824266 - 07/05/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

We'd have to see. Once you're in a clusterfuck there's not usually any problem free way out.


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5824340 - 07/05/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

So, after the almighty international ClusterFuckers take control, shit will still suck, the US won't have any power and we'll still be blamed for everything that goes bad. No thanks.


--------------------
Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5824392 - 07/05/06 05:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
The UN hasn't slaughtered thousands of Iraqi's and led them around on dog leads. The US has. Big difference.




The real difference is that the US has had historical success in terms of nation building. Look at Japan and South Korea, I'd say they're pretty good. Even lesser nations that the US has rebuilt post-invasion have done well. Grenada has been a stable democracy ever since the US invasion, so has Panama. They may not have the most booming economies, but they have free and open elections which are routinely certified by international observers.

Meanwhile, what nation-building success stories does the UN have?

Somalia..er..East Timor..no..um..Sierra Leone..wait..um..maybe Cambodia...no not that either...how about Rwanda?

The point is, if my nation was in desperate need of reconstruction I'd happily throw my lot in the with US instead of the UN. At least I've got a chance at stable democracy if the US is put in charge. If the UN takes over, forget it.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Basilides]
    #5824942 - 07/05/06 07:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Alex:

Whatever force is needed to restore security in Iraq is going to involve the barrell of a gun either way. If an international force goes in there, it will be an international force accumulating collateral damage when fighting insurgents instead of the US/Coalition. Makes no difference, to the Iraqis it will still be the same shit, just a different asshole boss.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5826109 - 07/06/06 12:30 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The real difference is that the US has had historical success in terms of nation building.

Difference is Bush has already said he isn't interested in nation-building. There's enormous differences between Japan and Iraq, there was a thread recently about it.

Even lesser nations that the US has rebuilt post-invasion have done well.

Afghanistan isn't looking too good is it.

Grenada has been a stable democracy ever since the US invasion

Come again?

bad enough that what actually happened in October 1983 in Grenada was the US overthrowing another government which was not a threat to anyone and covering it up with a campaign of lies that stood unmatched until the present-day Iraq fiasco, but here's what "the restoration of democracy to Grenada" looked like at the time: At the end of 1984, former Premier Herbert Blaize was elected prime minister, his party capturing 14 of the 15 parliamentary seats. Blaize, who in the wake of the invasion had proclaimed to the United States: "We say thank you from the bottom of our hearts," had been favored by the Reagan administration. The candidate who won the sole opposition seat announced that he would not occupy it because of what he called "vote rigging and interference in the election by outside forces." One year later, the Washington-based Council on Hemispheric Affairs reported on Grenada as part of its annual survey of human rights abuses:

Reliable accounts are circulating of prisoners being beaten, denied medical attention and confined for long periods without being able to see lawyers. The country's new US-trained police force has acquired a reputation for brutality, arbitrary arrest and abuse of authority.


Somalia

The US occupied Somalia don't forget. Look what a success that was.

least I've got a chance at stable democracy if the US is put in charge

The US doesn't need to be put in charge. They are in charge and have been for 3 years.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Alex213]
    #5826272 - 07/06/06 01:11 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

On Grenada - Your talking about 1 year after the invasion, US forces continued to work with the local police for YEARS afterwards, not just 12 months. Grenada has held regular elections ever since the invasion, this is a MAJOR achievement given the history of Caribbean and Latin American democracies. Perhaps things were rough during the first year, but many other nations in that region cannot claim twenty years of uninterrupted open elections.

On Afghanistan - And the US hasn't left yet, has it?

On Somalia - Please remember that the US was there at the behest of the UN, and that while the US operated separately in most military respects, the UN was very much in charge

On nation building in Iraq - What are you talking about? President Bush presented the idea of creating an open democracy in the middle east as one of the primary reasons for invasion. That sounds like nation building to me...

Also, still waiting on a UN nation-building success story...


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5826485 - 07/06/06 03:21 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

RosettaStoned said:somewhere
Sounds good to me, it's high time we pull out of that shit hole waste of money, could care less if no one tries to clean it up. But if the UN thinks it can go for it heh.




For a second there I thought you had managed to purchase a clue. Then I read the second sentence and realized you weren't talking about the UN.




You mean to tell me the US spent even close to the same amount of the tax payers money on the UN as iraq? Shit hole waste of money describes iraq better than any place on earth.

Someone definitely needs a clue here, or was that a pathetic attempt at humor?


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5826506 - 07/06/06 03:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

On Grenada - Your talking about 1 year after the invasion

Why limit ourselves to after the invasion? We could talk the years before the invasion where Noreiga was considered an ally of the US. The list of brutal dictatorships who are allies of the US is as long as your arm. Uzbekistan for examples boils opponents alive. The US is a strong ally of Uzbekistan.

On Afghanistan - And the US hasn't left yet, has it?


It sure as hell isn't doing much. The Taliban are coming back strong and Karzai's authority extends to the bottom of his street in Kabul.

What are you talking about? President Bush presented the idea of creating an open democracy in the middle east as one of the primary reasons for invasion. That sounds like nation building to me...


Nah, nation-building costs a helluva lot more money than Bush wants to spend in Iraq. More money has been robbed from Iraq than is being spent on rebuilding the place.

Also, still waiting on a UN nation-building success story...

I'm still waiting on a US one to be honest.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Iraq - a route out of the clusterfuck? [Re: Economist]
    #5827060 - 07/06/06 09:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
On Afghanistan - And the US hasn't left yet, has it?





Actually...for all intents and purposes it has left. Canada has taken on the role of supplying forces to the region and a Canadian is in charge of the entire operation now.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/news/national/2003/07/17/command_kabul030717.html
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1719


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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