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Offlinetallgreen
chillin like avillain
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Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 293
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5824435 - 07/05/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If you won't fight for your freedom you won't have any. Have a nice day . And you missed a spot




It's too bad this war has nothing to do with freedom and everything to do with oil and big business. If you think Bush is fighting for freedom and democracy you're deceived.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #5824451 - 07/05/06 05:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

when we capture enemy fighters in military operations, the usual thing to do is to hold them captive until we can be reasonably sure they will not take up arms against us again should we let them free.

when these fighters are members of the military forces of a foreign country, this is usually quite simple. they are released when the war ends. as members of a foreign military, there is very little chance of them taking up arms against us once peace has been made.

what do we do in the case of militants who are aligned with stateless ideologies? there is no official surrender. the hostilities do not cease. so how do we know when it is unlikely that they will take up arms and try to kill us again? we don't, and we could hold them indefinitely if we wanted. that, or we could let them go on the condition that they will not try to kill us again, and take them at their word.

if, after releasing them from captivity, they break their word, take up arms, and for a second time, try to kill us, what should be our proper response?


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: tallgreen]
    #5824461 - 07/05/06 05:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Right. I'm a fucking dumbass. Aside from the fact that for almost everybody in this country oil and big business are the manifestations of our freedom (feel free to live without a car or refrigerator, and oh, by the way, you can own part of those companies). If you don't think that, after all the evidence, Iraq was a threat to peaceloving people all over the world you are truly beyond any educational potentiality. Now you, get scrubbing my oven.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: wilshire]
    #5824468 - 07/05/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
when we capture enemy fighters in military operations, the usual thing to do is to hold them captive until we can be reasonably sure they will not take up arms against us again should we let them free.

when these fighters are members of the military forces of a foreign country, this is usually quite simple. they are released when the war ends. as members of a foreign military, there is very little chance of them taking up arms against us once peace has been made.

what do we do in the case of militants who are aligned with stateless ideologies? there is no official surrender. the hostilities do not cease. so how do we know when it is unlikely that they will take up arms and try to kill us again? we don't, and we could hold them indefinitely if we wanted. that, or we could let them go on the condition that they will not try to kill us again, and take them at their word.

if, after releasing them from captivity, they break their word, take up arms, and for a second time, try to kill us, what should be our proper response?




Same as it should have been the first time we encountered the uniformless spies. Shoot them.


--------------------


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Offlinetallgreen
chillin like avillain
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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: tallgreen]
    #5824508 - 07/05/06 05:35 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"Right. I'm a fucking dumbass."

If you say so. Thank you I will live without a refrigerator or a car. I will be doing that in about 2 months, indefinitely, and I'm quite happy to do so.

Why the hell would I want to own part of those companies. They have no interest in the progression of humanity, their interests lie in greed and material possession.

And what evidence do you speak of? The WMDs? Saddam was pretty much all bark and no bite. We are fighting al queda, not Iraq. How many civilians need to die before we declare freedom, we have already killed 40,000. You obviously can't digest anything except your diet of American propaganda. Do you watch fox news?


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: tallgreen]
    #5824635 - 07/05/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

tallgreen said:
"Right. I'm a fucking dumbass."

If you say so. Thank you I will live without a refrigerator or a car. I will be doing that in about 2 months, indefinitely, and I'm quite happy to do so.




See, you have the freedom to MAKE THAT CHOICE. Most of us wouldn't go that way and I suspect that you, after a short while, will also abandon that path, like 99% of those who have gone that way before. But, it was your choice to make. Please don't fuck with my and the rest of the civilized world's choices. Thank you for your respect for my freedom.
Quote:



Why the hell would I want to own part of those companies.



So you can be part of the solution and guide them to a better path. Unless of course everybody else thinks your path is lunatic, in which case you will be voted down and ignored. Democracy, you know.
Quote:


They have no interest in the progression of humanity, their interests lie in greed and material possession.



The progression of humanity has been achieved through greed and material possession. If you are confused by this see any information on the benefits of refrigeration and medicine. Or do you prefer dentistry without anesthesia?
Quote:



And what evidence do you speak of? The WMDs? Saddam was pretty much all bark and no bite. We are fighting al queda, not Iraq. How many civilians need to die before we declare freedom, we have already killed 40,000. You obviously can't digest anything except your diet of American propaganda. Do you watch fox news?




Actually, I was more thinking of his willingness to aid, and actual contribution to, very evil scumbags who would wish to kill you slowly. Al Qaeda does not own exclusive rights to that franchise, but he was more than willing to help them. I do not watch any news on television. Do you?


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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5824653 - 07/05/06 06:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
If you don't think that, after all the evidence, Iraq was a threat to peaceloving people all over the world you are truly beyond any educational potentiality.



That seems like a rather odd assertion. However, if you'd care to educate us on the facts of Iraq's military capabilities which posed a threat to peace loving people all over the world, that would be great. I would love for you to provide a compelling argument, as I have yet to encounter one since this whole sordid affair began. Here are some things to help you get started:

1) Tell us about Iraq's air force, it's long range bombers, payloads and available munitions. Tell us about their fighter aircraft and helicopters.

2) Tell us about Iraq's navy, including troop carriers, submarines, aircraft carriers and battle ships.

3) Tell us about Iraq's ICBMs their range, payload, and warheads.

4) Tell us about Iraq's modern army, the number and kind of tanks they used, targeting systems training and weapons.

5) Tell us about Iraq's brilliant military minds and how they single handedly defeated Iran in a matter of days.

6) Compare the above with U.S. forces, Israeli forces, British forces, Chinese forces, Russian forces.

7) Lastly, tell us how Iraq's military capabilites had improved in comparison to the above nation's forces since the start of the first Gulf War, after over a decade of sanctions and daily air sorties by the U.S.

I am sure with your superior knowledge of the subject, you should be able to convince us of your prior assertion.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5824896 - 07/05/06 07:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

How about I just point out their willingness to assist any and all bad actors against the US and other civilized nations? Their offer of sanctuary and training facilities to bin laden. Their payment to the families of suicide bombers. Their invasion of Kuwait. Their refusal to adhere to the terms of the disclosure agreement. Their possession of uranium ore. Their corruption of the UN.

Just because their shit is relatively weak in the above board military sense doesn't mean they were not utter scum or dangerous. Ted Bundy didn't have an army. Should we have left him alone? 40,000? Yeah, OK, whatever you say. Less with Saddam, more with Saddam? We can masturbate all day. They NOW have a chance to be real people making their own fate. They sure as shit didn't have that before. And they are a little too busy to send bombs to NY. Good.


--------------------


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Offlinetallgreen
chillin like avillain
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Registered: 05/21/06
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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5824910 - 07/05/06 07:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
See, you have the freedom to MAKE THAT CHOICE. Most of us wouldn't go that way and I suspect that you, after a short while, will also abandon that path, like 99% of those who have gone that way before. But, it was your choice to make. Please don't fuck with my and the rest of the civilized world's choices. Thank you for your respect for my freedom.




First, I will not abandon that path, but you won't beleive me because you can't imagine being happy with that lifestyle.
Second, I never "fucked" with anyones choice, But it's clear to me that some choices are bad for everyone, especially ones that pretend to help when in actuality they rape and pillage.

Quote:


So you can be part of the solution and guide them to a better path. Unless of course everybody else thinks your path is lunatic, in which case you will be voted down and ignored. Democracy, you know.



Not feasible. Rarely do companies want to hear ideas that do anything except make them more money. They don't care how fucked up they are being, those facts are ignored. So you're right, even if I had massive shareholdings I would get voted down. Democracy works poorly when the participants are ignorant. It's not a coincidence that public education is despicable.

Quote:


The progression of humanity has been achieved through greed and material possession. If you are confused by this see any information on the benefits of refrigeration and medicine. Or do you prefer dentistry without anesthesia?



Human progression is not about technology. I've seen cancer cured with 3000 year old chinese remedies. We don't need more bells and whistles, at this point technology is making it harder to live, not easier. Human advancement is about counsciousness, but that seems to be out of your scope of awareness, so I don't expect you to understand.

Quote:


Actually, I was more thinking of his willingness to aid, and actual contribution to, very evil scumbags who would wish to kill you slowly. Al Qaeda does not own exclusive rights to that franchise, but he was more than willing to help them. I do not watch any news on television. Do you?




Willingness to aid? You mean like how we did bin laden? The CIA generates over $30 billion a year, they have their own agenda. We did not take out saddam for freedom, we took him out for financial interests, interests of rich privileged assholes, not our interests, unless you happen to be one. Our government has not been by the people for the people for decades. I don't own a TV.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: tallgreen]
    #5825031 - 07/05/06 07:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Bye. Have fun. What are you doing on the corporation built internet that you access with your corporation built computer with signals over corporation laid wires/cables using corporation supplied electricity that you learned about in your corporation paid for school? See ya, it's been fun.


--------------------


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5825121 - 07/05/06 08:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

why do so many threads here wind up devolving into personal arguments that hijack the thread?


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing


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Offlinetallgreen
chillin like avillain
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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: tallgreen]
    #5825126 - 07/05/06 08:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Bye. Have fun. What are you doing on the corporation built internet that you access with your corporation built computer with signals over corporation laid wires/cables using corporation supplied electricity that you learned about in your corporation paid for school? See ya, it's been fun.



Great comeback. I can tell you are very educated.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles


Edited by tallgreen (07/05/06 08:06 PM)


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Offlinetallgreen
chillin like avillain
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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: Konnrade]
    #5825131 - 07/05/06 08:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:
why do so many threads here wind up devolving into personal arguments that hijack the thread?




My apologies. These are emotional issues, that's why. People take things personally becuase they involve everyone.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: Konnrade]
    #5826686 - 07/06/06 05:37 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> why do so many threads here wind up devolving into personal arguments that hijack the thread?

This is the reason we added a new moderator... it takes time to figure out the ebbs and flows, but hopefully Redstorm will soon be able to help calm us down before our emotions get the better of us.

> I would love for you to provide a compelling argument

To me, terrorism is like cancer. We can ignore it and hope it goes away, or we can cut it out of our body and hope it doesn't come back. Ignoring "little threats" of terrorism is just as dangerous as ignoring "little cancerous tumors". They don't just go away. Quite the opposite, they get worse and worse. These people don't want peace, they don't want compromise. They would rather kill me (and you) than share with us. This is based off of twenty plus years of personal observation and not off the current events as portrayed by CNN. If somebody can come up with a better way to deal with people that will die for a chance to kill you or somebody that you love, I am all ears.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinetallgreen
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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: Seuss]
    #5827086 - 07/06/06 09:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
To me, terrorism is like cancer. We can ignore it and hope it goes away, or we can cut it out of our body and hope it doesn't come back.




Cutting it out and hoping it doesn't come back is not a good way to treat cancer. I have done a significant amount of research on cancer, and it's a fact that it exists in all life at all stages. Plants have cancer, you and I have cancerous brain cells, heart cells, lung cells, all the time. It's just that our immune system takes them out before they get rampant. A good way to treat "rampant" cancer is drastic lifestyle changes for the better. Environmental factors are becoming horrendously responsible for disease these days. For example, 25% of Native Americans have diabetes, which is obviously from diet, because it was non-existent before westernization. Most of the food we eat today is pretty much just rations. Most of the air we breath and the water we drink is polluted. Most people live extremely stressful lives and sometimes their only happiness is around substance abuse. It seems obvious to me that cancer would appear in a situation like this.

So, back on the subject. We need to change the lifestyle of humanity. We cannot just cut out terrorism, we need to correct the way we live so that it corrects itself. This would look like education for the poorest people on the planet, and humanitarian aid at unprecedented levels. Humanity is sick, and suppressing the "bad parts" won't work. For many people terroism is a natural option.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: tallgreen]
    #5827212 - 07/06/06 10:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I agree with the education part, but not the aid. We already spend billions of dollars in aid with no visible improvement to the status of the world's poor. What we need is to teach them to be self-sufficient. Rather than sending them huge containers of raice or grain, we should send a dozen people learned in the way of agriculture, bulding infrastructure, and setting up better school systems. By doing this, we can hope to create an environment where people abroad can provide for themselves.

By the way: it seems like this thread has calmed down again, but I don't want to see any more attacks on other posters. I may be new, but I'm not going to allow this place to degrade into a shit-flinging contest.

Quote:

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally "argument against the person") or attacking the messenger, involves replying to an argument or assertion by attacking the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself.




Avoid doing what's in the quote above, and you guys can continue to post here.


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Offlinetallgreen
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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: Redstorm]
    #5827243 - 07/06/06 11:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Word. I'll try to take things less personally. Do you recommend using PMs instead when things get heated? It's hard to not respond to comments that seem obviously uninformed, especially when they are aimed at disproving your viewpoint.

I think you're right about the more education less aid perspective. Welfare is retarded! Why the hell should we pay for people to live wasteful lives, many people on welfare have no interest in contributing anything to anyone? But we barely do anything about spreading education, and at a certain level providing education is aid, like providing building materials for irrigation systems, or water purification, etc. I think the Internet and that $100 laptop project will make a massive difference. Healthy happy people are not angry. It is natural to love thy neighbor. But when your family is murdered, and you’re hungry, things change, radical viewpoints seem necessary. So if we could just get everyone taken care of I believe terrorism would fizzle out. But we need to make it sustainable, knowledge is power.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: tallgreen]
    #5827279 - 07/06/06 11:15 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Getting heated is fine and natural when debating politics. It's a thin line to cross, but when the discussion veers off-topic and becomes more of a personal argument than a academic debate. If you feel like you must address a poster personally, we have the correct venue for that (pm's, or preferably, OTD.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: tallgreen]
    #5827589 - 07/06/06 01:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

We need to change the lifestyle of humanity. We cannot just cut out terrorism, we need to correct the way we live so that it corrects itself. This would look like education for the poorest people on the planet, and humanitarian aid at unprecedented levels. Humanity is sick, and suppressing the "bad parts" won't work. For many people terroism is a natural option.




Are you claiming that all we need to do is make the world even? That if nobody is rich and nobody is poor, then everybody will be nice to one another? I don't mean to be sound demeaning, I am simply taking what I think you are saying and extending it to the extreme.

How would a change in lifestyle have prevented the Oklahoma City Bombing, or the biological attack by the Rajneeshee Cult in Oregon?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Cheaper and Cleaner [Re: Redstorm]
    #5827594 - 07/06/06 01:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I agree with the education part, but not the aid. We already spend billions of dollars in aid with no visible improvement to the status of the world's poor. What we need is to teach them to be self-sufficient. Rather than sending them huge containers of raice or grain, we should send a dozen people learned in the way of agriculture, bulding infrastructure, and setting up better school systems. By doing this, we can hope to create an environment where people abroad can provide for themselves.





And what happens when some gaggle of idiots decides to chop their heads off in the name of allah?


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing


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