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OfflineShampioenier
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SUPA LIQUID CULTURE TRICK. yeah baby!
    #5822706 - 07/05/06 07:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Aloohoo. Well. I had one phat batch of cambodians a coupla weeks back. Took 15 sporeprints on a single sheet of projector slide plastic (you know those transparent slides the profs use at oono!versity... Furdyrmawr.... Anyways. So i got me little hepa filter and a gas mask (and swim goggles since i really nuke the air with swimming pool chlorine in handmister(pumpaction) with warm water...
and meegoodness, made a 4% honeywater solution which I only boiled for like 15 minutes or so... anyways. So I toss in 15 sporeprints into 500 ml of 4% honeywater solution. I have NEVER SEEN SO MANY SPORES FLOAT ANYWHERE< WOAWH.
Its awesome. I made 16 heywater spore syringes, LOADED with spores. Have been injecting like a nuttah. And I still have over 10 syringes left and another about 12 sporeprints for another SUPERDENSE liquid innoculant batc, oh yeah and I have several gallons of liquid innocalt now. It can be done. it aint that hard. Its a pity i dont have a single shroom at the moment.
just liquid innoclant cos its cold here ... which is fine.
twas awesome now i got the hang of it, i dont feell like i hang anymore. at least nothing buts me nuts. hehehe :cool: :heart:
You can do it. Its just... mmm. it takes time to master it. like any ol art, and then its so simple. just had to say that... :smile: I feel like a callous thug, me so good at the throughput technique. me teknik finally fulfilled... :smile: THANKS SHROOMERY!!!!!!


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InvisibleUnderNose
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Re: SUPA LIQUID CULTURE TRICK. yeah baby! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5822719 - 07/05/06 07:17 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

15 prints at once :crazy: there should be a lot of genetic diversity in that batch
any signs of growth yet dude, did you let the LC germinate and grow before you started to inoculate things


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LAGM 2.022

:dna::dna:


Edited by UnderNose (07/05/06 07:21 AM)


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Offlineroyer
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Re: SUPA LIQUID CULTURE TRICK. yeah baby! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5822855 - 07/05/06 09:13 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

lol


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if you have any questions please feel free to pm me , thx :-)


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OfflineEraserhead
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Re: SUPA LIQUID CULTURE TRICK. yeah baby! [Re: royer]
    #5822951 - 07/05/06 09:50 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds like someone needs to step away from the mushrooms for a minute....or few hours...


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Offlineroyer
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Re: SUPA LIQUID CULTURE TRICK. yeah baby! [Re: Eraserhead]
    #5823072 - 07/05/06 10:45 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

yep sure does


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if you have any questions please feel free to pm me , thx :-)


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OfflineSickShroomer
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Re: SUPA LIQUID CULTURE TRICK. yeah baby! [Re: royer]
    #5823417 - 07/05/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

SO the spore colinize in the syringes?? Wow cool WAy t oget greath growth!!!


--------------------
Going to miss the PNW gatherings.

I'm not here trying to make anyone feel stupid or to make myself feel good by putting ppl down. I am just here to help fellow shroomerites in there grows. I do this to keep my own knowledge fresh, and to help everyone succeed!


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OfflineYamidude
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Re: SUPA LIQUID CULTURE TRICK. yeah baby! [Re: SickShroomer]
    #5823439 - 07/05/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i'd find a nice outdoor area and innoc about half and acre with that. Can you imagine a true Sea of Shrooms?


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OfflineOatman2000
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Re: SUPA LIQUID CULTURE TRICK. yeah baby! [Re: Yamidude]
    #5823461 - 07/05/06 12:39 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i have read that passage about 3 times now and i still don't know what's going on?

you put 15 sporeprints into 16 syringes? of honey water?

but you didn't let the spores germinate and grow myc first?


I got 800 Ml of LC with 2 cc's of spores.... i think your ratio's need a serious ajustment.


--------------------
Spawning to COIR
:thumbup:  My Chocolate Recipe
WBS QUART SPAWN JAR PREPERATION
----------------------------

4-PO-DMT; 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethltryptamine


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OfflineYamidude
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Re: SUPA LIQUID CULTURE TRICK. yeah baby! [Re: Oatman2000]
    #5823491 - 07/05/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Oatman2000 said:
i have read that passage about 3 times now and i still don't know what's going on?

you put 15 sporeprints into 16 syringes? of honey water?

but you didn't let the spores germinate and grow myc first?


I got 800 Ml of LC with 2 cc's of spores.... i think your ratio's need a serious ajustment.




it sounds more like he made a huge amount of spore solution for syringes, but who knows.


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Offlinemikeownow
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Re: SUPA LIQUID CULTURE TRICK. yeah baby! [Re: Yamidude]
    #5823536 - 07/05/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

He is makeing a none important mistake.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Invisibleshobimono
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Re: SUPA LIQUID CULTURE TRICK. yeah baby! [Re: mikeownow]
    #5826274 - 07/06/06 01:11 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You made 15 prints and then used 15 prints but somehow still have 12 prints left?!?
and you your 500ml expanded in volume to several gallons?
You should call this the SUPA MULTIPLYING TRICK


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: SUPA LIQUID CULTURE TRICK. yeah baby! [Re: shobimono]
    #5826509 - 07/06/06 03:31 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

that is some far out shit. this girl/dude was shrooming so hard she figured out a way to make 15 prints, use them all, yet have 12 unused prints. its dark magic i say!


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


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OfflineShampioenier
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NO!!! listen! [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5826669 - 07/06/06 05:26 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I took 500 ML (about a pint) of water, added 20 ml honey, boiled it 15 mintues, then scraped 15 sporeprints into that. That is a lot of spores in 500 ml trust me. I sucked out about 16 spore syringes from that. So its loaded with the honeywater and spores. Its winter here I dont have heating equipment, its germinated but not really growin its purdy cold here now. But that RATE OF inoculation (HIGH SPORE MASS THE BOTTOM OF THE JAR WAS LIKE BLACK FROM ALL THE SPORES. IS TO GUARANTEE SUPER SUCCESS I HAVE HAD ENOUGH TROUBLE WITH STUFF. MAN THESE ARE THE MOST POTENT CAMBODIANS I HAVE EVER HAD JUST ONE LIL SHROOM AND I WAS WAHOOOO LISTNIN TO SKAZI SHAWEEHOAWHAOWHOWOWOHAW...
no no no


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5826672 - 07/06/06 05:27 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

and no, I squirted a little bit of some syringe into gallons of other water... How hard is that to comprehend. sorry if not explain properly... But its guaranteed with that much spores that the bottom of the liquid culture jar goes black its so much spores. fuck bacteria. i got enough spoireprints to do this, so there.
2000 % contam proof.


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5826674 - 07/06/06 05:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

haha. No I got another 12 prints from the same batch that I havent put in any liquid innoculant jar at all. I still have to use up these several gallons of LC before using those other 12 prints. and by that time I will have thousands of sporeprints. hahahuhaha. And YES I WILL BE INNOCULATING FIELDS AND FIELDS AND FIELDS AND FIELDS EVERYWHERE. I WILL HAVE AN ENTIRE SWIMMING POOL OF INNOCULANT. I WILL MAKE A CUBENSIS PLAGUE IN MY AREA.


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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5826723 - 07/06/06 06:16 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

HIGH SPORE MASS THE BOTTOM OF THE JAR WAS LIKE BLACK FROM ALL THE SPORES. IS TO GUARANTEE SUPER SUCCESS




A big "spore mass" is not a guarantee of any kind of success, aside from the guarantee that you may have just wasted many many spores.

G/L with whatever it is your trying to do. Sounds....i n t e r e s t i n g .  :tongue:


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5826767 - 07/06/06 07:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Mmm yeah well everything else is good. MORE SPORES MEANS FASTER COLONIZATION. THE PRINCIPLE IS PRETTY SIMPLE.
I LOVE THOSE CLOUDS OF YOURS


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5826773 - 07/06/06 07:09 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

thanks for pullin my leg, nick nick. Could do with a little yoga...


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Offlinejohnuk
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5826816 - 07/06/06 07:30 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

A swimming pool of goodness!

I've been making up some big 4L bottles of LC out of spare prints just for the fun of experimenting. I'm trying to see if I can get shrooms without any kind of special gear (pressure cooker / syringes etc).

I thought I'd approach it differently, rather than by working with absolutes like you do with sterilised jars, just try to get there using more qualitative numbers - as happens in nature.

Your projector sheet size 'print' seems like a good idea since a single print only seems to go so far in these volumes. The next batch I get I'll try mixing at least a couple of prints in. Makes you really appreciate dark prints - specially when they're so easy to make (just leave the shroomies alone for 24h). Maybe it'd be worth doing this with a strain that drops a whole load of spores from a big cap.

I also made up some jars of varying sugar strength just to check what the best is for the spores I have - some of the LCs on here look very dark considering 3 - 4%.

I became curious about this after someone made a post asking about how they might inoculate an entire field - or a large area anyways.

I guess, if you're involved and can do so, it'd be easiest to inoculate a big pile of a manure / compost just before it's churned into the field - as was suggested in the other thread.

One problem is the amount of liquid in LC. When you add huge volumes of it to compost it, obviously, turns it into soup and you have to find some way of letting the water drain away whilst leaving behind the mycelium. I found you could do it real easily with a plant pot drilled for drainage and filled with compost. Gently pour in the LC so that you have a big mess and then wait for the water to go through, leaving behind the mycelium - the compost acts like a big filter cake. You could then mix that into a larger volume of compost / manure before it's spread onto the final area.

Misting would be with a hose. :wink:


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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: johnuk]
    #5826823 - 07/06/06 07:32 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I LOVE THOSE CLOUDS OF YOURS



Thanks! :smile:


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5826892 - 07/06/06 08:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

mm. About instigating a cubensis plague :laugh: Well. Yes.
First of all, I am taking all my old 'spent cakes and tossin em in  big rubbish bags with pasteurized medium. Man... You know. I'm gonna have a SHROOMHOLE (nevermind fishin hole). Thats like 2 meters deep and two meters wide totally FILLED with spawn... In fact I am intending on making several such magical depots in the woods around town in sacred places so that there will always be a lot of shrooms. Establish a few mothercolonies. Of course it will take a year or two but I will send photos of mega shroomage in time...


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5826914 - 07/06/06 08:26 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think this is the greatest idea... But you'll find out soon enough


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HELP!!!!!!!!!


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Offlinejohnuk
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5826915 - 07/06/06 08:26 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Have you seen much sign of activity in your bag yet?

2m deep seems pretty major. Unless the stuff you fill that hole with is somewhat loose, the mycelium may never reach the bottom - you might risk nutrient being rinsed away lower down before it was of any good.

It might work quite well in bark covered shady patches, the wood would give it something nice and loose, yet also relatively damp, to move through. You could use the bark as a kind of blanket for the mycelium to move through and colonise other patches nearby. If people are able to kick the bark around it might actually accelerate the rate that occurs.


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: johnuk]
    #5826925 - 07/06/06 08:33 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

why not young lion. do you work for the FDA?


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5826946 - 07/06/06 08:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

and no i aint got a bag like that yet, no. Like I said. Thats later.
I intend on plowin and tilling quite deeply into the forest floor, and thoroughly mixing a truckload of spawn into patches that are moist throughout the year. You know. The magical glade places.


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5826955 - 07/06/06 08:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)




"Mindlords with their spirit slaves:"
They have seen the wings in your eyes, and because they
have not wings the mindlords enslave your spirit. But the
power of spirit is mightier than the power of the mind and
the mindlords are laid to waste as the spirit rears in
penultimate, predestined, presuppressed majesty. To see you
aglow in the snow, oh loving eskimo. Deep in a forest were
trees cast deep dark shadow too cold even for the most
hardened eskimo there you were left in that grove led by
dark powers empowering itself by robbing you, but in turn
robbing itself, and enlightening Us. For the sun crept
indellibly across the sky, but cloaked in their darkness
with downturned boles basking in their own shade, when the
sun came they vanished as if never exiusted. When you were
born from your mothers womb you passed from Heaven into
Heaven with flying colours, and your birth was the first
day of spring. and your death shall be your first day of
eternal summer, the sun shall be at noon, and no shadow
shall be cast. The deep blue from on high, royal and
rolling, waiting for the fish, to swim again."

-Limwell.


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5826960 - 07/06/06 08:55 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)



have a shroomy day!


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5826963 - 07/06/06 08:57 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

more spores does not = better OR contam free. thats all...


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HELP!!!!!!!!!


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OfflineShampioenier
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thats what u think. but mathematically speaking, it [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5826965 - 07/06/06 08:59 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

increases hyphal population, and therefore, does reduce contamination rate because of species dominance (See Stamets, Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms, 2000).


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: thats what u think. but mathematically speaking, it [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5826968 - 07/06/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Im not arguin cause you have nice ratings :laugh:
jus sayin


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: thats what u think. but mathematically speaking, it [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5826973 - 07/06/06 09:02 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

please refer back to the second part of my first post


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HELP!!!!!!!!!


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OfflineOatman2000
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Re: thats what u think. but mathematically speaking, it [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5827431 - 07/06/06 11:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shampioenier said:
increases hyphal population, and therefore, does reduce contamination rate because of species dominance (See Stamets, Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms, 2000).




Hyphal population is once the spore has already germinated.... hence (hyphae)  So instead you have increased spore population. Which if they all germinate will have the most random subspecies. Lots of different hyphae from sporulation, of a Whole lot of spores.

what you need is just 1 hyphae from sporulation, then take that to your honey water to grow... Chop it up to grow again, chop it again, and again...  ie.) magnetic stirer.

Then you'll have some nice LC  - Darker is not neccessarily better. "quote stamets on that also"

You'll see soon enough.... but Good Luck    :thumbup:


--------------------
Spawning to COIR
:thumbup:  My Chocolate Recipe
WBS QUART SPAWN JAR PREPERATION
----------------------------

4-PO-DMT; 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-dimethltryptamine


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OfflineYamidude
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Oatman2000]
    #5827474 - 07/06/06 12:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You're on crack man. Learn english. Stop fantasizing. Come back to reality.


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Yamidude]
    #5860822 - 07/15/06 05:52 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

u r dumb. According to Stamets and also chinese who uses HUGE amounts of spores in their mycelial broth fermentation, increased numbers of hyphae and more spores means there is more COMPETITION AND MORE COMPETITION MEANS THAT THE STRAIN THAT WINS IS MORE COMPETITIVE THAN YOUR PALTRY LITTLE SUGGESTION OF TOO FEW SPORES. Dont try and fucking tell me, u dum shidz.
You obviously know nothing of industrial scale mycelial fermentation technique pioneered by Chinese companies.
So juz shaddap.
More strains via increased spore mass means more competition, which means whichever compatible strains win kick a larger variety of as you say, subspecies', ass. Its about dominance, in this case not only species dominance but also dominance of individuals within said species... ... :smile:


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5860832 - 07/15/06 06:05 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

APOLOGISE FOR SWEARING... jus angry not really. I know im right. IF you take 200 athletes in a race. instead of 20. there is more competition. Which means the even better one wins in the larger competition you know, just like its harder to win a lottery if there are more numbers involved. its simple math. More spores mean well. it REALLUY has to e the best strain in order to well, conquer the rest, which is what happenes. The tougher hyphae kick the others asses just like HUMAN BEINS. u kno...
the human race... the hyphal race...


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5860838 - 07/15/06 06:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I thought all spores off the same shroom have the same genetics... its when you take a shroom from a different cake and mix the spores that you get competition... or maybe you can use just a different shroom on the same cake... idk.


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


Edited by beatnicknick (07/15/06 06:11 AM)


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5862737 - 07/15/06 07:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> I thought all spores off the same shroom have the same genetics...

No! They all actually have DIFFERENT genetics. Due to the principle of independent assortment of chromosomes, the chance of two spores having identical genetics is one out of 2^n. Where "n" equals the number of chromosome pairs. This also discounts recombination, so the chances are even slimmer than the previous equation would indicate.

Of course, they also all share 50% of their genetics, so they are much more closely related than spores from different parents.

You can look at it this way... The chances of them being identical is 1/(2^n), but the chances of them being totally different is also 1/(2^n). So on average they share 50% of their genetics.


-FF


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: fastfred]
    #5868361 - 07/17/06 06:20 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

ah yes, genetic diversity. And the thing with this one liquid batch is, of course, that they had 15 different parents (15 sporeprints into 500 ml 4% honeywater dilute... :laugh:
So id say they had pretty much o Id say, a lot of genetic diversity within the cambodian spectrum of thingalings...


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5868362 - 07/17/06 06:20 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

thingz


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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5868878 - 07/17/06 10:54 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

hmmmm..... :yawn:


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5869267 - 07/17/06 01:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shampioenier said:
u r dumb. According to Stamets and also chinese who uses HUGE amounts of spores in their mycelial broth fermentation, increased numbers of hyphae and more spores means there is more COMPETITION AND MORE COMPETITION MEANS THAT THE STRAIN THAT WINS IS MORE COMPETITIVE THAN YOUR PALTRY LITTLE SUGGESTION OF TOO FEW SPORES. Dont try and fucking tell me, u dum shidz.
You obviously know nothing of industrial scale mycelial fermentation technique pioneered by Chinese companies.
So juz shaddap.
More strains via increased spore mass means more competition, which means whichever compatible strains win kick a larger variety of as you say, subspecies', ass. Its about dominance, in this case not only species dominance but also dominance of individuals within said species... ... :smile:




Um....  well first off its not a competition per se.  When you have lots of strains growing in a media, they do a few things... they grow side by side mainly, but can also mate with eachother a second time, called anastomosis.

Not all strains are capable of fuiting in the end either.  So you're growing a whole bunch of strains side by side that will gladly gobble down your substrate, yet do nothing for you in the end.

"industrial scale" cultivators use strain isolates for this reason.  they don't use massive quantities of spores and "may the best spore win"... that's totally bogus.


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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: creamcorn]
    #5869306 - 07/17/06 01:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

>>>"may the best spore win"... that's totally bogus. <<<<<

:thumbup: :grin:


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5877031 - 07/19/06 09:14 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

haha. Go and read STAMETS ON LIQUID CULTURE AND STRAIN ISOLATES. DO I HAVE TO GIVE YOU THE PAGE NUMBER AND CHINESE REFERENCE? OR YOU LAZY?

anyways. Just sayin. U jus don know. anastamosis yes. and in the end you get that meiosis shit and in fact, the best couples rule the hive. its pretty simple. Thats why its called a colony. the best genes from the best hyphae's genetics dominate the entire network of mycelium... sheesh. don't you guys know anything? superscientifical...

P.s did you know its considered rude to yawn in public, in Japan. Then again, you are not Japanese, are you Otto. :laugh:
Just yankin u chain, u know... don't flush!!!


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5877034 - 07/19/06 09:16 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:heart:
Inminent Impertinentmpiouspimpius XIIV


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5877062 - 07/19/06 09:39 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shampioenier said:
haha. Go and read STAMETS ON LIQUID CULTURE AND STRAIN ISOLATES. DO I HAVE TO GIVE YOU THE PAGE NUMBER AND CHINESE REFERENCE? OR YOU LAZY?




Yeah, actually I would love if you could give me this "Chinese reference" - its not a matter of me being lazy, its a matter of that being pretty vauge. I'd like to read it.


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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: creamcorn]
    #5877216 - 07/19/06 10:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i think this guy should sit down before he hurts him self!!!!!!
if this was the best way then why does the best come out of strain isolation? 2000 % contam free lol wow


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: royer]
    #5877227 - 07/19/06 10:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

He'll figure it out when his LC's contam...


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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5877254 - 07/19/06 11:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

you should read some of his other posts ..


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: royer]
    #5877317 - 07/19/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

yeah LOL I just did...  :cuckoo:


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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5877356 - 07/19/06 11:27 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The information in GGMC about mass spore inoculations by the Chinese regarding shiitake cultivation is an error. They don't use spores to grow shiitake. Paul has corrected this in his seminars and public appearances ever since the book came out. You can't take what you read in any book and use it as a definitive answer.

I challenge anyone to take a sporeprint from a shiitake mushroom and grow a crop from it. It won't happen, regardless of how many spores you use.
RR


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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5877363 - 07/19/06 11:30 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

he must look like super shroomer the super hero when he is making his jars. lol


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: royer]
    #5877391 - 07/19/06 11:36 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Its like Bevis when he starts getting into the caffeine pills.


"MORE SPORES! MORE SPORES!! I NEED MORE SPORES FOR MY MUSHROOM! I AM THE GREAT SHROOMHOLIO!"

Butt-head's in the background, "UHH HA HA HA"


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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5877413 - 07/19/06 11:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
They don't use spores to grow shiitake. Paul has corrected this in his seminars and public appearances ever since the book came out. You can't take what you read in any book and use it as a definitive answer.




[Edit: pseudo-blasphemous statements and gloating removed.]

I respectfully beg to differ. Your last sentence ironically applies to the correction rather than the original.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I challenge anyone to take a sporeprint from a shiitake mushroom and grow a crop from it. It won't happen, regardless of how many spores you use.
RR




[Edit: Overly vigorous response to challenge removed]

While accepting your challenge would be outside my means and experience, I will post a citation shortly proving that it can and has been done without undue difficulty.


-FF


Edited by fastfred (07/19/06 10:08 PM)


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Offlineroyer
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5877535 - 07/19/06 12:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

EquilibriuM said:
Its like Bevis when he starts getting into the caffeine pills.


"MORE SPORES! MORE SPORES!! I NEED MORE SPORES FOR MY MUSHROOM! I AM THE GREAT SHROOMHOLIO!"

Butt-head's in the background, "UHH HA HA HA"




lol thats funny


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Offlinemikeownow
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5877588 - 07/19/06 12:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Ok well, I havent read this whole thing but here is what I have to say.

I used .5 cc of spore solution on the same day this guy used 15 spore prints. Here is my lc that I made its been in the fridge for a wile.



And then I used this same lc to knock up 4 quart jars, here is a pic of one of the jars, id say its about 100% lol.



so the question I have to ask is how is his 15 spore print lc doing? Cause my .5 cc of vendor cambodian inoculant is working fine.


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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: mikeownow]
    #5879465 - 07/19/06 10:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

From: "Genetics and Breeding of Edible Mushrooms" 1993 Chang, Buswell, and Miles

Pg. 112-115



2. OBJECTIVES OF THE GENETICS AND BREEDING

We began a study of the genetics and breeding of L. edodes in 1986 with the principal objectives of development of strains that gave high mushroom yields and were dependable in their productivity. Since most shiitake mushrooms are sliced or cut into small pieces for cooking, relatively little emphasis has been placed on the size, shape, color, etc. of the mushrooms. Attention has been given to the taste of the mushrooms, particularly whether they have a bitter aftertaste, and to the qualities relating to storage of mushrooms after harvesting. This chapter describes the way in which we proceeded to develop the breeding program. We began with an evaluation of the gerrnplasm. Each parent dikaryon was selfed (i.e., the dikaryon was fruited, spore germination percentage determined, and single spore isolations made for subsequent matings of monosporous sibling mycelia) to determine which deleterious mutations were present, and whether strains with different accession numbers were actually identical. A standard protocol was also selected for evaluation of performance.


3. SOURCE OF PARENT CULTURES

Approximately 65 dikaryotic strains of L edodes represent the basic germplasm for this program. Approximately 45 of the strains were obtained from Dr. Gary Leatham, who at that time was associated with the USDA-Forest Products Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin. This collection included a number of strains that had been used in commercial production of shiitake mushrooms, both on synthetic logs and on natural logs. Approximately 20 strains were obtained from other individuals interested in the taxonomy, physiology, genetics, etc., of L. edodes. Though each of these strains has a unique accession number, it is not known how many have a common origin. Some information is available to suggest that a single isolate may have two or more different numbers. Therefore, the extent of the germplasm basis is not clear.


4. MONOKARYOTIC PROGENY

Twelve dikaryotic strains were inoculated into a medium containing, by weight, 8 parts red oak sawdust, 1 part wheat bran and 1 part rye grain. Within ito 3 months each of the twelve dikaryons produced one or more mushrooms. One mushroom from each strain was harvested, the stipe removed, and the cap was suspended over an agar plate. An abundant supply of basidiospores was usually available within 2 hours. The spores were suspended in sterile water and spread on 1 per cent malt agar plates. Spores germinate very slowly. Germination percentages ranged from less than 1% to about 10%. Germinated spores were transferred to 1% malt agar plates. Individual colonies that arose from single basidiospores differed greatly in growth rate, latent period before commencing growth, and other colony characteristics. Some monokaryons died after only a small colony was produced. Attempts were made to obtain
at least 25 monokaryotic progenies from each dikaryon.


5. MATINGS BETWEEN MONOKARYONS

Matings were made between the monokaryons obtained from each dikaryotic strain. At least 10 s1 monokaryons from one strain were intermated in all possible combinations. This yielded approximately 45 matings among siblings for each of the dikaryotic strains. Approximately 1/4 of the matings were expected to be sexually compatible and produce dikaryons. The expectation was based on the presumption ofabifactorial sexual incompatibility system with non-linked genes (Mon et al., 1972; Tokimoto et al., 1973). None of the matings among siblings from the 12 strains gave dikaryons at a frequency approaching 25%. Dikaryons were obtained in approximately 10% of the matings. This observation suggested the existence of other genes affecting mating competence in addition to the A and B mating type genes.


6. S1 DIKARYONS

Several S1 dikaryons obtained from each of the above crosses were also inoculated into artificial logs and carried to fruiting. Spores were collected and allowed to germinate. The percentage spore germination was much higher in this s2 generation than in the s1 generation. Spore germination from some S1 dikaryons approached 100%, but was also less than 10% in spores from other S1 dikaryons. We interpret these results as suggesting that the original dikaryotic strains contained many lethals (either mutants or gene combinations) that were lost in thesi generation (Royse etal., 1983; Bowden etal., 1991). Subsequent crosses have shown that it is almost always possible to select for dikaryons whose progeny have spore germination frequencies approaching 100%.
S1 dikaryons exhibited almost as much diversity in colony characteristics as s1 monokaryotic progeny. The instability of certain dikaryons was associated with the instability of the dikaryotic condition. Dikaryons differed greatly in the proportion of hyphae with clamp connections. Large sectors without clamp connections occasionally occurred but were usually, although not always, reconverted to having clamp connections within a few days.
-------------------------------------------------------------


You'll have to excuse the OCR errors, those are mine and not the authors.


-FF


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5881776 - 07/20/06 03:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shampioenier said:
APOLOGISE FOR SWEARING... jus angry not really. I know im right. IF you take 200 athletes in a race. instead of 20. there is more competition. Which means the even better one wins in the larger competition you know, just like its harder to win a lottery if there are more numbers involved. its simple math. More spores mean well. it REALLUY has to e the best strain in order to well, conquer the rest, which is what happenes. The tougher hyphae kick the others asses just like HUMAN BEINS. u kno...
the human race... the hyphal race...




More competition does not mean better.

If you have 200 athletes, you will not have any faster athlete then if you take the fastest 20 of those 200 and had a race. Thats the point of less spores and selection. But hell what do we know.



--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
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Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: scatmanrav]
    #5883276 - 07/20/06 11:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> If you have 200 athletes, you will not have any faster athlete then if you take the fastest 20 of those 200 and had a race.

How do you pick the 20 best spores out of 200? Your analogy doesn't make much sense.


-FF


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: fastfred]
    #5883679 - 07/21/06 05:27 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

the faster ones apparently eat the slow ones who havent germinated, know. a littel voice of the logos, a proteus int he dark...  meow! Its just I did for to guarantee species dominance you know firstly, and secondly, well, mmm i read somewhere that the best spores and hyphaes genetic makeup takes over the colony, i could be wrong about this, uncle fred?
I dont know, but I am, along with MY MYCOBAGS, FREEZING MY BUNS OFF COS I DONT HAVE A HEATER, so, NO, MY LIQUID INNOCULANT IS IN NATURAL COOL ROOM, NOT GROWING... :heart:
What can I say, what can I do. I did leave the one jar outside in the garden and it grew out nice and jolly alright, the only jar in about 15 to have got an infection... so no. my jars and also the master jar that is still  half ful from the 15 sporeprints and 4% honeywater, well, they do seem to have pee peed in the water, that is all. but its too cold for them to grow. this is convenient as i am starting  a legit mushroom business and as such, have had to remove my stuff to a safer place where its quite nippy this time of year, although quite sterile still...


Edited by Shampioenier (07/21/06 05:38 AM)


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OfflineShampioenier
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or, in this case, the best 20 out of 20 billion? ... [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5883685 - 07/21/06 05:43 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:heart: With the same level of space allowed, species dominance within restricted space will give you the best within said conflict and restricted livingspace. Greater numbers, as far as my uneducated ass thinks, do exfer... higher levels of genetic competition, within said restricted area. Maybe I am totally wrong. Then I apologise. I don't know exactly. But the Logos does purport this to be the case.
Its not an inferrence. its an exferrence.
Maybe I should ask Dr. Dragon Chang from Aig-herb.com
they ferment TONS OF MYCELIUM every year... hundreds of thousands of tons of blimmin medicinal mycelium. In fact, I will ask the fellow just now.


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OfflineShampioenier
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Re: or, in this case, the best 20 out of 20 billion? ... [Re: Shampioenier]
    #5883691 - 07/21/06 05:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

sorry, that's aigi-herb.com

They sell gummi berry juice ingredients too :smile: :mushroom2:


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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: fastfred]
    #5884466 - 07/21/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
> If you have 200 athletes, you will not have any faster athlete then if you take the fastest 20 of those 200 and had a race.

Your analogy doesn't make much sense.


-FF




It makes perfect sense from where Im sitting.

Quote:

fastfred said:
How do you pick the 20 best spores out of 200?




By using techniques such as streaking on agar plates, and isolating the healthiest looking substrains, then fruiting each one individually to see what produces the best fruit bodies - then printing those specimines?


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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: _OttO_]
    #5886119 - 07/21/06 11:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Sure, I suppose that would work to some degree. I thought we were talking in the context of MSI though.

IMO there is no real disadvantage to using a high spore concentration in MSIs. There are some potential advantages though.

There is a problem getting much actual competition to happen though. The spores that germinate faster have the biggest advantage. If you have a high spore concentration you are likely to have a good range of genetics germinating at about the same time, whereas if you had a lower spore concentration you might not have very many germinating at the same time.

I guess the whole thing is debatable, but if your interested in more competition then more spores is the way to go. I don't think you can really question that.

Optimally you would dilute the spores and spread plate or overlay them on agar and isolate monokaryotic strains, analyze those, pick various mating combinations, then analyze the dikaryotic mycelia from those matings, then test them on actual substrate, then chose master strains to use.

That's a lot of work though and if you have the time and resources to do all that you are probably going to use your advanced breeding program for strain improvement and would likely be interested in the commercial aspects of it. I don't think that there are too many people like that here.

> the best spores and hyphaes genetic makeup takes over the colony,

"Best" is a subjective term. The fastest growing spores and mycelia will out colonize the slower ones. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are better in any other way. They might also be faster on your spawn, but slower on the substrate or faster on agar and slower on the spawn.

IMO for MSI you can't go wrong with more spores. You'll have more genetic variation and selection pressures will result in better suited mycelia colonizing the majority of the substrate.

From what it sounds like you're going to have contamination problems the way you did it though.


-FF


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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: fastfred]
    #5902310 - 07/26/06 04:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Isolates would be like picking the best runners of the crowd.

I did not start the stupid analagy..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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