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creamcorn
mad scientist


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Quote:
Shampioenier said: u r dumb. According to Stamets and also chinese who uses HUGE amounts of spores in their mycelial broth fermentation, increased numbers of hyphae and more spores means there is more COMPETITION AND MORE COMPETITION MEANS THAT THE STRAIN THAT WINS IS MORE COMPETITIVE THAN YOUR PALTRY LITTLE SUGGESTION OF TOO FEW SPORES. Dont try and fucking tell me, u dum shidz. You obviously know nothing of industrial scale mycelial fermentation technique pioneered by Chinese companies. So juz shaddap. More strains via increased spore mass means more competition, which means whichever compatible strains win kick a larger variety of as you say, subspecies', ass. Its about dominance, in this case not only species dominance but also dominance of individuals within said species... ...
Um.... well first off its not a competition per se. When you have lots of strains growing in a media, they do a few things... they grow side by side mainly, but can also mate with eachother a second time, called anastomosis.
Not all strains are capable of fuiting in the end either. So you're growing a whole bunch of strains side by side that will gladly gobble down your substrate, yet do nothing for you in the end.
"industrial scale" cultivators use strain isolates for this reason. they don't use massive quantities of spores and "may the best spore win"... that's totally bogus.
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Tippinthru
contented

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,131
Loc: "The Garden"...
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: creamcorn]
#5869306 - 07/17/06 01:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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>>>"may the best spore win"... that's totally bogus. <<<<<
-------------------- Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time... [
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Shampioenier
Storm in aTeaCup


Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 260
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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haha. Go and read STAMETS ON LIQUID CULTURE AND STRAIN ISOLATES. DO I HAVE TO GIVE YOU THE PAGE NUMBER AND CHINESE REFERENCE? OR YOU LAZY?
anyways. Just sayin. U jus don know. anastamosis yes. and in the end you get that meiosis shit and in fact, the best couples rule the hive. its pretty simple. Thats why its called a colony. the best genes from the best hyphae's genetics dominate the entire network of mycelium... sheesh. don't you guys know anything? superscientifical...
P.s did you know its considered rude to yawn in public, in Japan. Then again, you are not Japanese, are you Otto.  Just yankin u chain, u know... don't flush!!!
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Shampioenier
Storm in aTeaCup


Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 260
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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 Inminent Impertinentmpiouspimpius XIIV
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creamcorn
mad scientist


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Quote:
Shampioenier said: haha. Go and read STAMETS ON LIQUID CULTURE AND STRAIN ISOLATES. DO I HAVE TO GIVE YOU THE PAGE NUMBER AND CHINESE REFERENCE? OR YOU LAZY?
Yeah, actually I would love if you could give me this "Chinese reference" - its not a matter of me being lazy, its a matter of that being pretty vauge. I'd like to read it.
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royer
±±±±±±±±±±

Registered: 05/15/06
Posts: 4,801
Loc: anywhere but here
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: creamcorn]
#5877216 - 07/19/06 10:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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i think this guy should sit down before he hurts him self!!!!!! if this was the best way then why does the best come out of strain isolation? 2000 % contam free lol wow
-------------------- ================================================= if you have any questions please feel free to pm me , thx :-)
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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: royer]
#5877227 - 07/19/06 10:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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He'll figure it out when his LC's contam...
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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royer
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Registered: 05/15/06
Posts: 4,801
Loc: anywhere but here
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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you should read some of his other posts ..
-------------------- ================================================= if you have any questions please feel free to pm me , thx :-)
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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: royer]
#5877317 - 07/19/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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yeah LOL I just did...
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 11 months, 3 days
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The information in GGMC about mass spore inoculations by the Chinese regarding shiitake cultivation is an error. They don't use spores to grow shiitake. Paul has corrected this in his seminars and public appearances ever since the book came out. You can't take what you read in any book and use it as a definitive answer.
I challenge anyone to take a sporeprint from a shiitake mushroom and grow a crop from it. It won't happen, regardless of how many spores you use. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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royer
±±±±±±±±±±

Registered: 05/15/06
Posts: 4,801
Loc: anywhere but here
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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he must look like super shroomer the super hero when he is making his jars. lol
-------------------- ================================================= if you have any questions please feel free to pm me , thx :-)
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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: royer]
#5877391 - 07/19/06 11:36 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Its like Bevis when he starts getting into the caffeine pills.
"MORE SPORES! MORE SPORES!! I NEED MORE SPORES FOR MY MUSHROOM! I AM THE GREAT SHROOMHOLIO!"
Butt-head's in the background, "UHH HA HA HA"
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: They don't use spores to grow shiitake. Paul has corrected this in his seminars and public appearances ever since the book came out. You can't take what you read in any book and use it as a definitive answer.
[Edit: pseudo-blasphemous statements and gloating removed.]
I respectfully beg to differ. Your last sentence ironically applies to the correction rather than the original.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: I challenge anyone to take a sporeprint from a shiitake mushroom and grow a crop from it. It won't happen, regardless of how many spores you use. RR
[Edit: Overly vigorous response to challenge removed]
While accepting your challenge would be outside my means and experience, I will post a citation shortly proving that it can and has been done without undue difficulty.
-FF
Edited by fastfred (07/19/06 10:08 PM)
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royer
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Registered: 05/15/06
Posts: 4,801
Loc: anywhere but here
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Quote:
EquilibriuM said: Its like Bevis when he starts getting into the caffeine pills.
"MORE SPORES! MORE SPORES!! I NEED MORE SPORES FOR MY MUSHROOM! I AM THE GREAT SHROOMHOLIO!"
Butt-head's in the background, "UHH HA HA HA"
lol thats funny
-------------------- ================================================= if you have any questions please feel free to pm me , thx :-)
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mikeownow
Humungus fungus

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 2,856
Loc: WA,USA
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Ok well, I havent read this whole thing but here is what I have to say.
I used .5 cc of spore solution on the same day this guy used 15 spore prints. Here is my lc that I made its been in the fridge for a wile.

And then I used this same lc to knock up 4 quart jars, here is a pic of one of the jars, id say its about 100% lol.

so the question I have to ask is how is his 15 spore print lc doing? Cause my .5 cc of vendor cambodian inoculant is working fine.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: mikeownow]
#5879465 - 07/19/06 10:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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From: "Genetics and Breeding of Edible Mushrooms" 1993 Chang, Buswell, and Miles
Pg. 112-115
2. OBJECTIVES OF THE GENETICS AND BREEDING
We began a study of the genetics and breeding of L. edodes in 1986 with the principal objectives of development of strains that gave high mushroom yields and were dependable in their productivity. Since most shiitake mushrooms are sliced or cut into small pieces for cooking, relatively little emphasis has been placed on the size, shape, color, etc. of the mushrooms. Attention has been given to the taste of the mushrooms, particularly whether they have a bitter aftertaste, and to the qualities relating to storage of mushrooms after harvesting. This chapter describes the way in which we proceeded to develop the breeding program. We began with an evaluation of the gerrnplasm. Each parent dikaryon was selfed (i.e., the dikaryon was fruited, spore germination percentage determined, and single spore isolations made for subsequent matings of monosporous sibling mycelia) to determine which deleterious mutations were present, and whether strains with different accession numbers were actually identical. A standard protocol was also selected for evaluation of performance.
3. SOURCE OF PARENT CULTURES
Approximately 65 dikaryotic strains of L edodes represent the basic germplasm for this program. Approximately 45 of the strains were obtained from Dr. Gary Leatham, who at that time was associated with the USDA-Forest Products Laboratory, Madison, Wisconsin. This collection included a number of strains that had been used in commercial production of shiitake mushrooms, both on synthetic logs and on natural logs. Approximately 20 strains were obtained from other individuals interested in the taxonomy, physiology, genetics, etc., of L. edodes. Though each of these strains has a unique accession number, it is not known how many have a common origin. Some information is available to suggest that a single isolate may have two or more different numbers. Therefore, the extent of the germplasm basis is not clear.
4. MONOKARYOTIC PROGENY
Twelve dikaryotic strains were inoculated into a medium containing, by weight, 8 parts red oak sawdust, 1 part wheat bran and 1 part rye grain. Within ito 3 months each of the twelve dikaryons produced one or more mushrooms. One mushroom from each strain was harvested, the stipe removed, and the cap was suspended over an agar plate. An abundant supply of basidiospores was usually available within 2 hours. The spores were suspended in sterile water and spread on 1 per cent malt agar plates. Spores germinate very slowly. Germination percentages ranged from less than 1% to about 10%. Germinated spores were transferred to 1% malt agar plates. Individual colonies that arose from single basidiospores differed greatly in growth rate, latent period before commencing growth, and other colony characteristics. Some monokaryons died after only a small colony was produced. Attempts were made to obtain at least 25 monokaryotic progenies from each dikaryon.
5. MATINGS BETWEEN MONOKARYONS
Matings were made between the monokaryons obtained from each dikaryotic strain. At least 10 s1 monokaryons from one strain were intermated in all possible combinations. This yielded approximately 45 matings among siblings for each of the dikaryotic strains. Approximately 1/4 of the matings were expected to be sexually compatible and produce dikaryons. The expectation was based on the presumption ofabifactorial sexual incompatibility system with non-linked genes (Mon et al., 1972; Tokimoto et al., 1973). None of the matings among siblings from the 12 strains gave dikaryons at a frequency approaching 25%. Dikaryons were obtained in approximately 10% of the matings. This observation suggested the existence of other genes affecting mating competence in addition to the A and B mating type genes.
6. S1 DIKARYONS
Several S1 dikaryons obtained from each of the above crosses were also inoculated into artificial logs and carried to fruiting. Spores were collected and allowed to germinate. The percentage spore germination was much higher in this s2 generation than in the s1 generation. Spore germination from some S1 dikaryons approached 100%, but was also less than 10% in spores from other S1 dikaryons. We interpret these results as suggesting that the original dikaryotic strains contained many lethals (either mutants or gene combinations) that were lost in thesi generation (Royse etal., 1983; Bowden etal., 1991). Subsequent crosses have shown that it is almost always possible to select for dikaryons whose progeny have spore germination frequencies approaching 100%. S1 dikaryons exhibited almost as much diversity in colony characteristics as s1 monokaryotic progeny. The instability of certain dikaryons was associated with the instability of the dikaryotic condition. Dikaryons differed greatly in the proportion of hyphae with clamp connections. Large sectors without clamp connections occasionally occurred but were usually, although not always, reconverted to having clamp connections within a few days. -------------------------------------------------------------
You'll have to excuse the OCR errors, those are mine and not the authors.
-FF
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scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
Loc:
Last seen: 11 years, 26 days
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Quote:
Shampioenier said: APOLOGISE FOR SWEARING... jus angry not really. I know im right. IF you take 200 athletes in a race. instead of 20. there is more competition. Which means the even better one wins in the larger competition you know, just like its harder to win a lottery if there are more numbers involved. its simple math. More spores mean well. it REALLUY has to e the best strain in order to well, conquer the rest, which is what happenes. The tougher hyphae kick the others asses just like HUMAN BEINS. u kno... the human race... the hyphal race...
More competition does not mean better.
If you have 200 athletes, you will not have any faster athlete then if you take the fastest 20 of those 200 and had a race. Thats the point of less spores and selection. But hell what do we know.
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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> If you have 200 athletes, you will not have any faster athlete then if you take the fastest 20 of those 200 and had a race.
How do you pick the 20 best spores out of 200? Your analogy doesn't make much sense.
-FF
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Shampioenier
Storm in aTeaCup


Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 260
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: NO!!! listen! [Re: fastfred]
#5883679 - 07/21/06 05:27 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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the faster ones apparently eat the slow ones who havent germinated, know. a littel voice of the logos, a proteus int he dark... meow! Its just I did for to guarantee species dominance you know firstly, and secondly, well, mmm i read somewhere that the best spores and hyphaes genetic makeup takes over the colony, i could be wrong about this, uncle fred? I dont know, but I am, along with MY MYCOBAGS, FREEZING MY BUNS OFF COS I DONT HAVE A HEATER, so, NO, MY LIQUID INNOCULANT IS IN NATURAL COOL ROOM, NOT GROWING...  What can I say, what can I do. I did leave the one jar outside in the garden and it grew out nice and jolly alright, the only jar in about 15 to have got an infection... so no. my jars and also the master jar that is still half ful from the 15 sporeprints and 4% honeywater, well, they do seem to have pee peed in the water, that is all. but its too cold for them to grow. this is convenient as i am starting a legit mushroom business and as such, have had to remove my stuff to a safer place where its quite nippy this time of year, although quite sterile still...
Edited by Shampioenier (07/21/06 05:38 AM)
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Shampioenier
Storm in aTeaCup


Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 260
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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or, in this case, the best 20 out of 20 billion? ... [Re: Shampioenier]
#5883685 - 07/21/06 05:43 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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With the same level of space allowed, species dominance within restricted space will give you the best within said conflict and restricted livingspace. Greater numbers, as far as my uneducated ass thinks, do exfer... higher levels of genetic competition, within said restricted area. Maybe I am totally wrong. Then I apologise. I don't know exactly. But the Logos does purport this to be the case. Its not an inferrence. its an exferrence. Maybe I should ask Dr. Dragon Chang from Aig-herb.com they ferment TONS OF MYCELIUM every year... hundreds of thousands of tons of blimmin medicinal mycelium. In fact, I will ask the fellow just now.
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