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Invisibledblaney
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Ableton Live: Mixing Software
    #5820540 - 07/04/06 05:55 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I'm considering starting to DJ, nothing major, maybe a couple parties here and there or remixing some tracks for fun.

I was checking out what software (and hardware) is available, and I came across Ableton Live 5.2. I downloaded the demo version and it seems really functional and all around great! But, I've only tried it for one day, and I have almost no experience. Have any of you tried Live?

If I were to buy it, I would probably get this bundle, with hardware:
http://shop.ableton.com/trade/productview/97/44/

So I guess my question is: for those of you who have experience, what can I do with Live, or is there some software that's better?

(edited title)


--------------------
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Edited by dblaney (07/04/06 10:23 PM)


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Invisiblegema
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Re: Ableton Live: Mixing Software [Re: dblaney]
    #5821399 - 07/04/06 10:40 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Ableton Live is the way to go. In my opinion, it's better than Tracktor. You can mix as much channels as you want. Ableton already has excellent effects plus you can drop vsts. The interface is pretty much invisible. Plus the controller you want to get works perfect w/Ableton. I really like that you don't have to beat match anything, it does it for you. But if you like beatmatching (turntable feel) you can do that too. The warp feature to timestrect is awesome. It's easy to use and its a time saver. With Ableton, DJing will be fun but you'll eventually start producing your own beats.


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InvisibleOsker246
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Re: Ableton Live: Mixing Software [Re: dblaney]
    #5822295 - 07/05/06 03:22 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Dj'in is a fun so im glad your interested in joining the club. But if you are really trying to get into REAL Dj'ing id suggest staying away from the software. Software can be useful at time...say like when your to lazy to actually do a mix. But the real art in Dj'in is standing behind the decks and doin your magic.

Unlike software real DJ'in with turntables/CD players require practice and patients which in the end shows how your dedication. With software its just a press of a button and your already beatmatching. Wheres the skill behind that? Plus if you ever plan on playing out at night clubs, they are not going to have anything set up for you to use programs.

If you decide to go the hardware route you must decide on a few things 1. which do you want to use Turntables? Or CD's? 2. You want to be a mix DJ or a scratch DJ?

I'll tell you this now since I use both CD's and vinyl. Going the CD route is alot cheaper in the end. Just buy yourself some well known reliable CD decks like the Pioneer CDJ 800's or 1000's or even the technics slz-1200's (they have the spinning platter to emulate the feel of vinyl) and your set to go. You can either digitaly purchase your music or download through P2P software.

With vinyl its a little different. I love the feel of vinyl and always recieving new tracks to mix but it gets just to damn expensive!
I order records from overseas since alot of US based shops dont carry a good selection. So currency exchange and shipping rates kill me. On average it cost me about $60 for about 5-6 records thats including shipping.

So for about $10 a vinyl you get about 3-5 songs per record. So it adds up if you wanna build a good collection. But theres also a way to combine digital and analog technology. You can use products such a serato scratch live or Stanton Final scratch which use Timecoded vinyl which lets you use MP3's. But you need to have a laptop or a PC to use it.

Plus quality of turntables are really important when it comes to dj'ing. If you buy some cheap tables your going to run into problems. The industry standard for turntables in night clubs are the technics sl-1200's. Each Technics sl - 1200 MK5 in new condition is going to run you about $500 a table.

But ya...im tired and dont want to write much more especially if your not interested in hardware all too much. Just let me know if you want some more info and ill help ya out.


Edited by Osker246 (07/05/06 03:27 AM)


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Re: Ableton Live: Mixing Software [Re: Osker246]
    #5823999 - 07/05/06 05:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Don't use software for mixing, it gets you into bad habbits and requires minimal effort - beat matching etc.

However, Once you've explored the electronic music frontier from the otherside of the decks, you'll probably want to pick up ableton live again and use it for production. Best us home producers have got, especially when you rewire it through reason / cubase :smile:


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Invisiblekaniz
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Re: Ableton Live: Mixing Software [Re: Cepheus]
    #5824362 - 07/05/06 06:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Abelton: Live is the way to go IMO. However, it depends on what you want to accomplish.

Personally, I dont think digital-DJing is any 'less' of an art then using decks (either CD or Vinyl), however - that is all upto the person who is behind it.

DJing is more then just matching beats. Its about a unique taste in music, track selection, programming, putting soul into a mix, exposing people to music they have never heard before, creating tension and release and getting a crowd hyped - no software can replace that.

I find people who put down digital-mixing tend to hold onto the notion that beat matching is the *ONLY* thing a DJ does. Yes, its a good skill to have, and it is an essential one for mixing with decks - it is not the be all and end all.

Now, if a DJ is using something like Abelton to /only/ beat-match the first few bars of one song into the last few bars of another song and not doing anything beyond that, not putting any thought into track selection, or flow, or even if they sound good mixed together (just becase the beats match doesnt mean it will mix nicely) : Then yes, that is a hack. However, if a DJ at a club is doing that with decks - just beat matching the first part of a song with the last part of a song, thats pretty lame also and they should get back into the bedroom untill they have a few more tricks up their sleeve.

Heres a point to ponder: When I went to Mutek this year - a HUGE minimal techno festival in Montreal (they also have one in Mexico, and I think in Berlin also), which represents the 'cutting edge' of DJing, pretty much /everyone/ was using a laptop in their performances -- some were using it along side with Vinyl, but many others were 100% laptop oriented. These are major, big-name international DJs also, not bedroom DJs and local heros -- DJs that travel the world and play huge clubs/festivals/etc.

Richie Hawtin is a HUGE supporter of things like Abelton Live - take a listen DE9: Transitions, and its an amazing example of what limits Abelton can be pushed to. Theres points in the mix where he has upwards of 6 tracks layered together to create entirely new songs that transition from one to another so seamlesly its almost impossible to tell where one ends and another starts - what he did with that mix could not be done with Vinyl.

When going with Digital Mixing, you need to embrace the medium for all it has to offer, and not simply as a replacement for decks. You need to start doing things with the Medium that are NOT possible with decks.

Make use of effects, looping, slicing things up, EQing the hell out of tracks so you can better layer them.

Instead of just mixing the last part of a song with the 1st part of another song -- slice up a bunch of your favorite songs into smaller loops, then start layerng them together to create new songs. Make use of plugins, VSTs, your own productions/beats and tie them in with other elements that you have.

Sure, if you use Abelton to only beat-match songs and you stay within the limits of Vinyl mixing : yes, that is a shame, and a waste, and your better off buying a set of decks. However, if you start to push the boundries of it and make full use of it - the possabiltiies are endless.


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InvisibleOsker246
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Re: Ableton Live: Mixing Software [Re: kaniz]
    #5824592 - 07/05/06 07:51 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

First off DJ = Disc Jocky. Wheres the disc in software? Im all for the new digital technology coming out now days. It has its ups and it has its downs. But I personaly find it to be really pathetic when I person decides to become a "DJ" and just sit infront of a laptop pressing buttons which the software does all the work for them.

I've spoken to plenty of people on various Dj forums that they always see people who claim to be a "DJ" when they use software. But once they step up to the decks they dont even have the basics fundamentals of Dj'ing. Software in the eyes of the majority of the DJ community is pretty much a joke (especially if you dont do anything fancy with it).

Who wants to go to a club and see some random guy infront of a computer controlling the music? The ability to see a real DJ perform adds to the Vibe of club. Thats why your not going to see a lot of people performing in clubs with just software.

Yes I do know there are big artist out there who use software now. But where did they start? They had built there fan base long before the ability to Dj with software came out. Since they had the fans attention long before software they can actually get away with it.

Sasha for instance, he started out long ago on vinyl and made it big. Now every show he does is with abbleton live and a custom made MIDI controller mixer he uses. People will go out to see him because they know the name. Clubs will even set up the sound system for him cause they know he will bring in money.

Why would you want to give up the ability to actually touch and manipulate your music to software? Sure you can combine more than 2 tracks really easy with software. But who says you cant do it with Vinyl or CDs? I've seen Dj's out there using 3-4 decks making some pretty fuckin crazy mixes. Plus its actually a person doing it not a program which makes it that much cooler.

But if your gonna DJ, its best to start out with real gear like turntables/CD players. So you can learn the basic fundamentals. Then if you ever decide to switch it up to software go for it. Just dont be taking the easy way out going straight to software.

This is just my 2 cents though.


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Invisiblekaniz
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Re: Ableton Live: Mixing Software [Re: Osker246]
    #5824791 - 07/05/06 08:44 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


Who wants to go to a club and see some random guy infront of a computer controlling the music? The ability to see a real DJ perform adds to the Vibe of club. Thats why your not going to see a lot of people performing in clubs with just software.





I spent the weekend at a festival where most of the people were using laptops only. Deadbeat played one of the most amazing sets of the night (to me), and it was him twiddling knobs on a midi controller hooked upto a laptop. He had energy behind the rig and was pumping out some of the best music I had heard in a long time. I'm not sure if it was Abelton or not (and as far as I know, it was 100% his own material, more a live PA then a DJ set) -- but he knocked me on my ass.

Richie Hawtin a few weeks ago at This Is London had abelton up and running and had a room full of people losing their shit - no one seemed to care or notice that he was flicking around a laptop.

Adam Marshall (a local DJ) played an ableton set not too long that had people gushing at how good it was.

Michael Goodwin, another Toronto DJ - blew my socks off with an Abelton set. It was a local club night in some hole in the wall bar : it wasnt that tricky to get his laptop hooked upto the system. He played a wide range of music, would pepper in samples/effects, had all his music sliced and diced to really play with it in a way that wouldnt be possible on Decks.

Yes, seeing a master on 4 decks rip shit up can be impressive - I've seen Jeff Milligan do shit on 4 decks that have blew my mind.

In some ways, I am agreeing with you - using Software to replace the skill of beatmatching when playing a set and ONLY doing that is pretty lame. I 100% agree with that.

But, when you take that medium and start pushing it and start doing things in live sets that you /cant/ do with Vinyl or CDs -- that is another story. I dont buy 'well, you gotta build up your cred first!' pfft, who cares - I sure the hell dont. 90% of the time I'm lost in my own world dancing not looking at the DJ booth to care what medium that they are using, aslong as its getting my ass dancing.

Also, it isnt that hard to get your rig running in a club setting - I have seen many DJs bring in their own laptop and hook it up to whatever the club currently has and do their own thing - and thats just local DJs. Yes, you will need to bring your own gear along with you - but so what. You carry around a laptop and your controllers instead of a bag full of records.

So, DJ means Disk Jockey - so what. Gay used to mean happy, words change as the world evolves. DJ at its most 'basic' simply meant playing records - no mixing, no beatmatching, just simply tossing one record on after another while at a radio station. It has since evolved since that day - and will continue to do so.

And yes, Sasha and others started out with Vinyl - but thats because thats all that was available to them at the time. Now we have new tools available that allow you to explore and play music in new and interesting ways - why limit yourself 'just to build cred?'

Abelton allows for tighter mixing, smoother transitions and the ability to layer effects/tracks/loops/clips and toss in your own touch in ways that are not possible with Vinyl.

Matching beats is one small aspect of DJing - any monkey with a bit of time and patience can learn to beatmatch. There is alot more to putting together a good, interesting and creative set then worrying about synching up two songs -- and if a software program does it automatically for you and allows you to focus on other elements : great, why not.

But, as I said before: If someone is /just/ using the software to beatmatch and not doing anything beyond that - thats weak, a hack, and they have no place calling themself a DJ. If all they are doing is click-dragging a song, hitting 'synch' and spending the rest of the time waving their hands in the air - they need a firm smack up side the head.

I've heard enough quality Abelton sets (or sets made with other mixing software) that have blown me away that I give them the respect that I think they deserve.

Some examples of killer Abelton sets.

Tampopo @ Vprat

Complex, layer, beautiful music, with samples, loops, effects, his own tracks/productions mixed in - I dont care if he used Vinyl or not before, I dont care if he couldn't beatmatch his way out of a paper bag - this set is fucken stellar, and if I had heard this out live I would have lost my shit to it.

Adam Marshall - Maximal - another great mix done with abelton.

anywho, I just think that if you use the technology to its fullest and simply not as a 'stand in' for Vinyls - it allows you more creative freedom to play around with music in ways that were not previously possible.

Personally, I dont DJ, and dont have any real interest in mixing/DJing/etc. However, if I /was/ to start going at it seriously, I'd look at things like Abelton - not because I'm lazy and looking for an easy way out, but because I see it as an exciting new technology that offers alot of possibilities and tools to play with that were not previously available. I get more excited looking into the future of music then I do holding onto the past.

And to me, things like Abelton, Traktor/Final Scratch, etc are just the tips of the iceburg and the start of some amazing things : I'd rather be pushing myself on the forefront of new technologies and trying new things.


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Invisiblekaniz
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Re: Ableton Live: Mixing Software [Re: kaniz]
    #5824849 - 07/05/06 08:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

But, I guess to sum up my opinion.

- I think Digital DJing is just at the start. Yes, there are alot of people who misuse the technology (sadly) and are hacks. However, the future of it is very bright and I think that there will be alot of very cool/stellar advancements comming down the line - its still in its early stages of what is possible, so why not start off with it and see where it can take you?


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Ableton Live: Mixing Software [Re: kaniz]
    #5825564 - 07/06/06 12:08 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Wow! That's pretty much exactly what I was looking for, thanks!


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But makes for the heaviest sword"
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Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Re: Ableton Live: Mixing Software [Re: kaniz]
    #5825594 - 07/06/06 12:13 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Ya know I'm not really disagreeing with you that new technology doesn't leave possibilities open for other things.

I'm simply just saying here that if anybody truly does want to get into DJ'ing do not skip stepping stones. Work your way up to software. Any person can read the "Help me" file and pop out a banging mix within a couple days. But not every person can stand behind the decks and learn how to DJ right away.

I've been mixing for 2 years I already know beat matching isn't the only factor. But its still one of the most important thing a person needs to learn. How is anybody supposed to call themselves a DJ if they don't even know how to beat match on their own?

But how many years have all those DJ's you named been around? I'm pretty sure most of them have been around for quite some time. I'm 99.9% positive that all of them started the same way with either Vinyl or CDs then worked their way up to other forms such as software.

Call me old school or what ever.

But my point is don't skip stepping stones. Work your way up the ladder then decide what you want to do after your accomplished Vinyl/CDs. Cause software and Vinyl/CD's are on a whole different level here. You might actually find using software to be boring cause there isnt whole lot of interaction between you and the equipment.


Edited by Osker246 (07/06/06 12:50 AM)


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Re: Ableton Live: Mixing Software [Re: dblaney]
    #6946112 - 05/21/07 09:52 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I agree, as an experienced dj, start out with a pair of technics, because youll never have the respect if you dont know how to use a pair of decks and a mixer. I often mix a lot of digital tracks with my vinyl sets, but i started out with an old ass crate of vinyl just like everyone should. I dj'd for four years b4 I touched a cd deck or got into traktor. and even with traktor i only use it as another device ( I play digital tracks off it, but i dont mix on traktor or program any of my beats, to me its just a lot easier to know how to spin. gotta crwl b4 u can walk. you wanna use ableton, start producing your own tracks with it, it is a powerfull tool. But dont be a posuer. and dont play hardcore, please


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Re: Ableton Live: Mixing Software [Re: djcube]
    #6951980 - 05/22/07 03:30 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Real DJ's use vinyl.

If you want to go digital with vinyl, check out Stanton Final Scratch (or similar). You get the digital interface with the vinyl control.

Learn the art, then get into the innovation. Most people have no idea that time it takes to artfully mix music, especially on the fly.

If you are looking for some fun creating your own tracks you can check out Fruity Loops Studio, its fun to mess around with and had a bit of power. Really, though, get some decks and a mixer off of ebay. I started with some old technics and a crappy gemini mixer and over time built up my hardware and software collect. However, dont spend the money until you know you have the talent. Ive watched too many people that want to be DJ's go spend all sorts of money thinking thats what is going to make them great (and they did nothing but throw away their money because they never had the ear or the talent)...a good dj needs nothing more than tables and a mixer...hell, ive even had to play parties on some old belt drives (OMG WTF!)

Oh and cube, whats wrong with hardcore? Would you rather him start off with easy shit like trance and house? :lol:


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Re: Ableton Live: Mixing Software [Re: dedjam]
    #6955338 - 05/23/07 08:02 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Psytrance is a brilliant place to start.

The tracks are all very samey and you can for the most part eq out the glitch for a mix and then whack it back in.

Personally I mix psydub. Mixing chillout properly isn't as easy as it appears to be.. Real chillout constantly changes.. speeds up and slows down... and when you're floating around on acid its sure kicks the shit out of any of the more aggressive styles of electronic music.

I recently bought some cheap and nasty cd decks off my mate.. for $90.
Definitely the way forward.


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:sun: "...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" :sun:

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Offlinededjam
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Re: Ableton Live: Mixing Software [Re: Cepheus]
    #6955445 - 05/23/07 08:59 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

aManEater said:
and when you're floating around on acid its sure kicks the shit out of any of the more aggressive styles of electronic music.





I will agree with this. When im on lots of acid I wont touch anything else but my psytrance records or cd's. Psytrance can take you to new worlds like no other, and its easy to get started because you can entertain yourself without being too great (especially if you are tripping)


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Re: Ableton Live: Mixing Software [Re: dedjam]
    #6957046 - 05/23/07 04:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Oh and cube, whats wrong with hardcore?




The fact that it is almost the most annoying music in the world, next to trance. Psytrance gets boring quick as well. House music is where it all started, when parties where thrown "underground" in warehouses(of course people will argue this). When i am fucked up it doesnt get better than hard DnB and Electro House. If you haven't been their yet, check out www.ishkur.com a very informative site.

Also, to shamelessly promote my own crew, you can check out www.collectintel.net for mixes and original tracks. One of our own, Cody V, Has a record deal with Woody McBride (if u know who that is) and throws down phenominal all original techno sets.

ok im done now.

cubensis
www.collectintel.net


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Re: Ableton Live: Mixing Software [Re: djcube]
    #6957963 - 05/23/07 08:17 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Music taste all comes down to personal preference.

I personally find DnB to be annoying, just like you find hardcore to be annoying. So let's just enjoy our music and avoid arguing what style of EDM is better.


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