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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
#5820726 - 07/04/06 05:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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No, actually, that's why they call them "stars."
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trendal
J♠


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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: Schwammel]
#5820745 - 07/04/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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ever have an energy problem w/ you air condition?
Yeah, whenever the power is out 
they charge you $700 for a $15 part?
No I just pay the $15 for the part and install it myself!
I end up paying the $700 for the energy it takes to run the A/C, though
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
J♠


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Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
#5820748 - 07/04/06 05:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
twelvelookslikeu said: HAHA so if something is new-age it is wrong?
Did I say that? Anywhere? Can you find a quote from any one of my 14k posts where I say "new-age is wrong"? I doubt it.
There's a big difference between saying "I don't want to talk about new-age stuff in this thread" and saying "new age is bullshit".
Because while I don't normally enjoy talking about new-age stuff...you probably won't ever catch me calling it bullshit!
Why would I have to...when Pen & Teller already did such a good job
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Schwammel
Auk

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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: trendal]
#5820925 - 07/04/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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so understand the equation of $700 verus $15...
if you do it yourself you don't have any overhead
if you go to church and pray to god you are payin
top dollar for some stuff,
If you do it yourself you are paying $15 for
the real stuff...
Edited by Schwammel (07/04/06 06:06 PM)
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twelvelookslikeu
Stranger


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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: Schwammel]
#5821251 - 07/04/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Its just that allot of people seem to coil when they hear something that is under the new-age category. What is new age anyways? I wouldn't be surprised at all if some of the "new-age stuff was correct.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: trendal]
#5821280 - 07/04/06 08:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: I hope you aren't calling me a new-ager 
Energy certainly does exist "by itself"
I don't know what are you refering to, but if you have waves in mind, waves are also one form of existence like particles, waves are not energy, they contain energy like matter does, but a wave is just two pulsating fields combined an electric one and a magnetic one. Magnetism is not energy, it's a magnetism, electric field is the way a charge interacts with other charges, so again it's not energy, though it can be described with the concept of energy.
Consider that energy is mostly a product of motion (speed) and mass. Mass is matter, and motion abstract, so the product of these two is also abstract.
Energy exists in the same way love exists
I think this whole idea of living energy was sparked by the misunerstanding of the theory of relaticity, which states that matter can be converted to energy and vice versa. This is true, but people often take it the wrong way. they think suddenly your body starts converting into this ghostly glowing power-rangers kind of a thing, but really, you stay the same, it's just that your relation, your abstract relation to the outside world is changed, you are being "measure" by the universe as if you have less mass, and you gain energy in your motion. But really it's all just numbers and relations between different physical values of your moving body and the rest of the universe
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: trendal]
#5822877 - 07/05/06 09:25 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: Those two simple points are all that you need to understand why everything works the way it does on this physical plane of existence. Every action (or inaction?) is the result of energy flowing from one area to another - from hot to cold.
Sounds like a certain philosophy I know of. Check out Process and Reality by Alfred North Whitehead.
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trendal
J♠


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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5822989 - 07/05/06 10:04 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't know what are you refering to, but if you have waves in mind, waves are also one form of existence like particles, waves are not energy, they contain energy like matter does, but a wave is just two pulsating fields combined an electric one and a magnetic one. Magnetism is not energy, it's a magnetism, electric field is the way a charge interacts with other charges, so again it's not energy, though it can be described with the concept of energy.
No, you are describing light. Light is not a "wave" - it just behaves like a "wave" under certain conditions. Just as under other conditions it behaves like particles - though it isn't really made of "particles".
Light is a force, one of the four fundamental forces. A force is a method by which energy is transfered from one area to another - an electron with a lot of energy will give off some of its energy in the form of light. That light will then travel until it interacts with another electron, at which point it will give some (or all) of its energy to that electron.
Consider that energy is mostly a product of motion (speed) and mass.
No, energy is not the product of motion. Motion is the product of energy.
Mass is matter, and motion abstract, so the product of these two is also abstract.
Again, no. Mass is not matter...mass is a property of matter.
Energy is not an abstract concept. Energy is a real, quantifiable thing. If you think it is abstract, I would suggest that your understanding of the concepts involved needs some work.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: trendal]
#5823273 - 07/05/06 11:39 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think it's time to finish this
our discussion isn't going anywhere.
In one post I say, no, you are wrong, it's like this
in another you say no, YOU are wrong, it's like this
and so on
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: trendal]
#5823283 - 07/05/06 11:42 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: Energy is not an abstract concept. Energy is a real
I assume height, understanding, silence and hate are also "real" things?
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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trendal
J♠


Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5823294 - 07/05/06 11:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Height, yes.
Understanding and hate, no...they are concepts that don't exist without humans. Height exists independently of any conscious organism (not the word...but the physical separation itself).
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: trendal]
#5823532 - 07/05/06 12:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: Height exists independently of any conscious organism (not the word...but the physical separation itself).
Isn't height a directional measure? In other words, it measures the vertical length of something. But there is no universal up or down, so the concept of height only makes sense in relation to other objects. Thus, height does not exist indepently of the conscious observer, because the idea of "up" and "down" do not exist independently of us.
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trendal
J♠


Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: Silversoul]
#5823590 - 07/05/06 01:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Height as the concept of the separation of two objects is what I was talking about.
That - separation - exists independantly of us humans. Whether we name the separation "height" or "length" or whatever doesn't change what it actually is.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: trendal]
#5824426 - 07/05/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: Height, yes.
Understanding and hate, no...they are concepts that don't exist without humans. Height exists independently of any conscious organism (not the word...but the physical separation itself).
Well if you consider height to exist, then I guess energy can exist too.
But height is an abstract concept. There are two kinds of concepts, concrete and abstract. Concrete is that which exists as as a persence in the universe, an object, something real. Abstract concepts are like helper objects which we humans use to describe concrete objects.
For example height does not exist like an object, but you use the concept of height to describe the concrete object of a tree. Height is neither made of atoms, or any kind of particles, nor is it any other kind of physical phenomenon, like fields, charges, gravity waves etc. it is a property of something, and a property is an abstract cathegory.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: trendal]
#5824438 - 07/05/06 05:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: Height as the concept of the separation of two objects is what I was talking about.
That - separation - exists independantly of us humans. Whether we name the separation "height" or "length" or whatever doesn't change what it actually is.
Abstract concepts also can exist without presence of humans. Rleative height (when comparing different objects) is a solid concept, and doesn't need human interpretation, yet it is not a concrete object.
Another good example is color. Color is an abstract concept, because colors do not exit, only light of a certain color exists. Color is the subjective property of a very concrete thing: radiation
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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trendal
J♠


Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5824570 - 07/05/06 05:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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nor is it any other kind of physical phenomenon, like fields, charges, gravity waves etc. it is a property of something, and a property is an abstract cathegory.
Actually height is very much like those things - it may not be a physical object that I can show you...but it is a concrete and required component of this universe. "Height" is just a word, a concept, but the thing it describes - physical separation - is definitely a real thing.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: trendal]
#5824595 - 07/05/06 05:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm afraid you don't quite understand the division between concrete and abstract concepts in philosophy. You siad it yourself, height is not physical. Concrete concepts have a physical presence. They are not always matter, but they are physical.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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trendal
J♠


Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5824642 - 07/05/06 06:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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They are not always matter, but they are physical.
Apparently our definition of "physical" is a little different...
Under your definition...what exists that can be "physical" without being "matter"?
"Concrete" does not necessarily imply something "physical". I hate to have to do this in a philosophy forum but...
Quote:
Main Entry: con·crete 1 : naming a real thing or class of things <the word poem is concrete, poetry is abstract>
Quote:
Main Entry: ab·stract 1 a : disassociated from any specific instance <an abstract entity> b : difficult to understand : ABSTRUSE <abstract problems> c : insufficiently factual : FORMAL <possessed only an abstract right> 2 : expressing a quality apart from an object <the word poem is concrete, poetry is abstract>
Note that concrete and abstract are not necessarily opposites.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
J♠


Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: trendal]
#5824684 - 07/05/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you would like a good read, here's a page that describes the modern concept of "abstract", from a philosophy point of view:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/abstract-objects/
Note this quote:
Quote:
Indeed, if any characterization of the abstract deserves to be regarded as the standard one, it is this: An abstract entity is a non-spatial (or non-spatiotemporal) causally inert thing.
Height, being distance, is a very "spatial" concept...thus it is not an abstract concept.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: Why this whole thing even works in the first place! [Re: trendal]
#5824687 - 07/05/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yes, gravity is physical, but it isn't matter
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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