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Murit
The kid withkaleidoscopeeyes



Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 121
Loc: The Colorful Nether
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
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My mistake in making my first PF cakes
#5818116 - 07/03/06 11:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I just recently decided to make my first PF cakes, and rather than using the standard 1/2 pint jars, I opted to go with full pints.
I mixed the substrate properly, and sterilized as directed, but when I looked at my cakes, I noticed that they did not completely fill the jars.
I later discovered that the reason for this was that I hadn't packed dry verm on top of the cake , so my question is: Will this mistake completely ruin my cakes if I try to colonize them via inoculation or should I still be okay?
-------------------- "Halucinogens produce severe and violent reactions.. ..in those who have never tried them." - Terence McKenna
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monstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: Murit]
#5818154 - 07/03/06 11:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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yes. they will contaminate without the layer of vermiculite.
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Omnicracker
Crusted Trolltivator

Registered: 09/18/05
Posts: 1,421
Loc: Wal-Merica
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: monstermitch]
#5818180 - 07/03/06 11:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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unless there is some other filter in place...?
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: monstermitch]
#5818183 - 07/03/06 11:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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> Will this mistake completely ruin my cakes if I try to colonize them via inoculation or should I still be okay?
No it won't. I've NEVER used a dry verm layer. It is a complete waste of space IMO/IME. If you can't get jars colonized then you have bigger problems than a layer of verm will likely solve. I also don't like the idea of using something to cover up contam problems or make up for sloppy technique.
The idea that the layer protects from contams falling into the jar is silly IMO. That's what the tinfoil is for. Most contams come from the inoculation technique, contaminated spore syringes, or improper sterilization the layer won't protect against any of those sources so it is not very useful.
You'll do much better to fill that extra space with more substrate in the future.
-FF
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monstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: fastfred]
#5818217 - 07/03/06 11:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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ha!!
tinfoil to stop contams? ha!
agreed that inoculation procedures are the reason most fail.
but come on now.
hey, whatever works for you. hear that everyone? the layer of dry vermiculite is worthless. contam barries are no good. tinfoil is the answer.
sorry, but I guess I do not agree with you. you say you are an old hand. so I guess I respect your experience and wisdom. I am doubting this advice though. for sure.
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Atheist
Stranger


Registered: 01/24/06
Posts: 13,705
Loc: USA
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: monstermitch]
#5818284 - 07/03/06 11:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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yeah dude that verm layer catches so much shit
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Murit
The kid withkaleidoscopeeyes



Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 121
Loc: The Colorful Nether
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: Atheist]
#5818307 - 07/03/06 11:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I believe I will solve this debate once and for all...I'll redo 12 of the cakes (I have 24), placing the dry verm layer on top as the tek demands, and do the others with no verm layer.
I'll report back once my innoculations have had time to colonize.
Thanks for all the feedback
-------------------- "Halucinogens produce severe and violent reactions.. ..in those who have never tried them." - Terence McKenna
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Atheist
Stranger


Registered: 01/24/06
Posts: 13,705
Loc: USA
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: Murit]
#5818318 - 07/03/06 11:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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keep the unfiltered ones in a really clean place like a disinfected rubbermaid
and maybe a coffee filter on each one
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Murit
The kid withkaleidoscopeeyes



Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 121
Loc: The Colorful Nether
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: Murit]
#5818324 - 07/03/06 11:57 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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good idea. I'll do that
-------------------- "Halucinogens produce severe and violent reactions.. ..in those who have never tried them." - Terence McKenna
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: monstermitch]
#5818389 - 07/04/06 12:12 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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> tinfoil to stop contams? > ha!
Contams fall downward. Everything autoclaved in the lab gets tinfoil over the top. Nothing else is usually done to seal up beakers, erlenmeyer flasks, or test tubes. Test tube covers aren't air tight, they only serve to stop contams from falling down into them.
Tinfoil is a tried and true method used in many thousands of labs every day.
> hear that everyone? > the layer of dry vermiculite is worthless.
Yep, you heard it. If a contam somehow were to magically float upward under the tinfoil, move several cm over and fall directly down your one of your tiny holes and land on the verm layer, then the jar is still contamed. You just managed to prevent the contam from germinating.
If you're doing your sterile technique right then the verm layer will save a jar only very rarely. By the point it actually saves a jar you will have wasted many, many jars worth of verm using the layer. So it's a total waste.
Some people don't even use jars, they use glasses. No lid, just tinfoil over the top. It works fine if you have good sterile technique. You also don't use a verm layer with grains. It would be useless since you shake them up. Grain jars don't have that much higher of a contam rate.
Believe me, I'm not pulling any of this out of my ass. It's been verified on literally hundreds of jars that I did back in my day. Obviously I've had a few contams, but never once have I had a contam that germinated on the surface of a cake. It's always been at the injection site. So I don't think I've ever had a single contam that a verm layer would have prevented, and I've saved many pounds of verm by leaving it off.
> contam barries are no good. > tinfoil is the answer.
I once fell into the trap of trying to seal up jars with barriers. It's just not required though. And if you tape your holes and completely seal the jars they will fail from lack of oxygen about half the time.
There's a ton of methods out there, and if you know your technique is good but just can't get things to work, then by all means try alternate methods. As often as not you'll find that the problem was something you overlooked rather than a need for barriers or verm layers.
> sorry, but I guess I do not agree with you.
Well, if you're having success with the verm layer, try it without the verm layer, you'll find that it works just fine. And you get larger cakes for the same space and materials.
When you graduate to grains you'll have to give up that security blanket anyway, so you might as well find out now that you don't need your blanky.
-FF
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Atheist
Stranger


Registered: 01/24/06
Posts: 13,705
Loc: USA
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: fastfred]
#5818406 - 07/04/06 12:14 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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why even risk it?
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: fastfred]
#5818449 - 07/04/06 12:25 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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> yeah dude that verm layer catches so much shit
Then you're not doing it right.
You PC with tinfoil on, you tilt the jar at a 45 degree angle, peel back the tinfoil partly, inject the spores, then replace the tinfoil. This should take no more than 10 sec per hole max. If you're getting more than 2% contams then you're failing some part of the procedure.
-FF
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faceyneck
Legitimate Philosopher


Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 2,421
Loc: upper body area
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: fastfred]
#5818476 - 07/04/06 12:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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What I like about the dry verm layer is it seems to provide a good area for pins to form. Most of my pins form right around the verm layer. That said, I am new to this, so take this anecdote with a grain of salt, but I'm pretty sure that casings are partly used for this purpose, as well as to help out with feeding water to they myc.
Just trying to expand the debate a little.
-------------------- Anything posted here, is total bullshit. My Meyers-Briggs Personality: INTJ New growers, or anyone else just needing help; I'm always glad to help right here.
We give cultivation advice here. AMU Q & A - We're glad to help My Doggy Door Greenhouse! First Ever Shmuvbox Tek! Do Manure Right!
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Roadkill
Retired Shroomery Mod


Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 22,674
Loc: Montana
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: faceyneck]
#5818495 - 07/04/06 12:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
faceyneck said:
Just trying to expand the debate a little.
Fred is right!~
You don't need to use a dry verm barrier!~
But...it is my personal opinion that a dry verm barrier is better than not using one.
tc
-------------------- Laterz, Road Who the hell you callin crazy? You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch! Brainiac said: PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: Roadkill]
#5818766 - 07/04/06 03:25 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks RK. I had sterile technique nailed down pretty well, so I never liked the idea of hiding errors in it by using a verm layer. I'd rather see my contam rate jump from <2% to 5% and use that indication to correct my technique.
Once you go to grain jars you won't have a verm layer anyway. Same with petri dishes and LC. So if you can do those fine then a verm layer is a total waste and can suck moisture from your substrate. Maybe that's why so many people like dunking. If you don't have to hydrate a verm layer then you don't need to dunk, at least for your first flush, so you'll probably cut your contams back more by not dunking than you will by having a verm layer.
If you're going on the premise that your sterile technique sucks, then there are plenty of more effective ways to make your crap shoot have a higher success rate. Peroxide, antibiotics, etc..
-FF
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Pr0_X
CultivationLifer


Registered: 01/18/06
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: fastfred]
#5818835 - 07/04/06 04:21 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I agree with FastFred and Roadkill.
Ive done hundreds of pfcakes, at first all I could get were those small needle 10cc insoline syringes and if I used a dry layer of verm the spore solution would get sucked into that instead of the substrate so I stopped useing the verm layer, yes it dos act as a filter if you ever need to invert your jars because of a CO2 problem and it does stop some airborne contams but IRL the only way contams are going to get into your jars afer innoc'ing and applying the second tinfoil lid is if you take off the foil completely, ive never run into a contamination problem unless it's something I did.
A matter of fact I just innoc'd a few jars with no verm layers. But hey, either way works.
-------------------- It's okay to hurt my feelings cause you know, they're so numb anyway. but I guess it's what I get for being to fuckin stupid to stay away - Jake - Support the FSR at www.fsrcanada.com and www.fsre.nl
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Murit
The kid withkaleidoscopeeyes



Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 121
Loc: The Colorful Nether
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
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My OTHER mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: Pr0_X]
#5818890 - 07/04/06 05:12 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, I just finished completely redoing ALL of my substrate jars, as it had seemed that I made a lot more mistakes than simply not adding the dry verm layer...which, as it turned out, wasn't actually too big a mistake to begin with.
but as it turned out, instead of boiling the jars propperly, I had ACTUALLY boiled the jars...as in...fully sealed...fully submersed...boiling for about 15 minutes per jar....this led me to end up with something more akin to a "PF Brick" instead of a "PF Cake"....however, this mistake has now been completely remedied, and as fred suggested, I filled each jar to the brim with substrate instead of leaving empty space.
...hopfully I wont muck up the inoculation as badly as I did the cake making itself...
I used the double layer of tin-foil as a lid this time with a rubber band holding the bottom layer firmly in place...this way I can simply fold back one layer...puncture the bottom layer with the syringe and re-cover 
thanks a lot for all your guys' input and advice on my question. It was all greatly appreciated.
-------------------- "Halucinogens produce severe and violent reactions.. ..in those who have never tried them." - Terence McKenna
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dot_com_unist
Stranger


Registered: 07/02/06
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Re: My mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: Murit]
#5818909 - 07/04/06 05:30 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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So what I got out of this debate is all the verm is realy going to do is suck the moisture out of your nutes and possibly spores along with it? I don't think that the pros out weight the cons on this, for the simple reason that the only time that the verm is protecting your cake is the split second that you lift the foil to inoc. I am by no means an expert just putting in my two cents. I will do a 50/50 on my next proj. half verm half w/o and see what happens....
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faceyneck
Legitimate Philosopher


Registered: 06/14/06
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Re: My OTHER mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: Murit]
#5819595 - 07/04/06 11:19 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Murit said: but as it turned out, instead of boiling the jars propperly, I had ACTUALLY boiled the jars...as in...fully sealed...fully submersed...boiling for about 15 minutes per jar....this led me to end up with something more akin to a "PF Brick" instead of a "PF Cake"....however, this mistake has now been completely remedied, and as fred suggested, I filled each jar to the brim with substrate instead of leaving empty space.
One time I got the "brick" quality cakes that you've described, and it wasn't because of boiling the jars. If you think about it, the jars are inside the PC/ boiling pot for at least an hour; there is no way they aren't going to boil like the water that they are submersed in unless you add some sort of crazy chemical to increase the boiling point.
The reason why I got a PF style brick cake was because I followed the recipe for the cakes EXACTLY, and the recipe called for too much water. Because of this, instead of BRF grains sticking to pieces of saturated vermiculite, there was standing water in the jelly jars that mixed with the BRF to form something quite gooey,and once PCed, impenetrable.
I will guarantee if you're getting "bricks" its because you are using too much water.
Read this tek:
http://www.fungifun.org/English/Pftek
That is the correct way to get the appropriate amount of water into each cake. It has nothing to do with boiling the jars, aside from the fact that if you have too much water in there, they'll turn to bricks once you sterilize them.
-------------------- Anything posted here, is total bullshit. My Meyers-Briggs Personality: INTJ New growers, or anyone else just needing help; I'm always glad to help right here.
We give cultivation advice here. AMU Q & A - We're glad to help My Doggy Door Greenhouse! First Ever Shmuvbox Tek! Do Manure Right!
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Murit
The kid withkaleidoscopeeyes



Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 121
Loc: The Colorful Nether
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
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Re: My OTHER mistake in making my first PF cakes [Re: faceyneck]
#5820037 - 07/04/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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ah. that would be it then, because I didn't add more water when I re-mixed and this time it did perfectly
-------------------- "Halucinogens produce severe and violent reactions.. ..in those who have never tried them." - Terence McKenna
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