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OfflineTrepiodos
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Where do we find our savior?
    #5817815 - 07/03/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Many people hold the idea that there is some sort of savior that will come and set things right for humanity, to bring a new era of peace, enlightenment and brotherhood to the masses of warring and confused humans. The most prominent among these (in my experience) is the Judeo-Christian concept of a Messiah. More numerous (world wide), are those who believe that a political system and it's "leader(s)" hold the answers to creating utopia, a heaven on earth. Another example can be found in those who look to the eventual beneficent intervention of an extra-terrestrial civilization

Even if any such fanciful situations were to ever come to fruition, I think it is spiritually counterproductive to rely on them. If we are given flesh on this earth for anything, it is to learn to better ourselves, spiritually and morally. We do not better ourselves by relying on someone else to make things right for us. Our betterment must be from individual initiative, from our own desires to realize the potentials that are inherent in all of us. We do not better ourselves by having an outside authority compel us by force or threat of force to change. Likewise, the spiritual and moral betterment of our neighbors can only come from within themselves, we cannot legislate this, we cannot coerce this. The materialistic mechanisms of the state are counterproductive to spiritual growth, reducing humans to physical resources to be plundered for some ideal, treating people as chattel belonging to the directors of the state’s apparatus or compelling them as simple minded domestic animals to be trained in the art of obedience. It is our ability to think in abstract concepts, to create new ideas, our transmission of knowledge, and our ability to choose novel ways of adapting to circumstances which set mankind apart from all other beasts on the planet. We cannot save humanity by sacrificing individuals to a collective or 'higher' good. We must appeal to our fellow man’s inherent abilities of reason and compassion, to the highest faculties of the human animal.

If there is a god that made you in his image, then you must learn to create the world you want as he created the world he wanted. If there's a heaven in store for us, we must learn to make it. Nothing's going to be handed to you on some heavenly platter. If there is any kind of supreme loving father figure, he'd tell his children that are looking and waiting for someone else to make things right to get off their sorry, dependent asses and learn to save themselves. This is what good parents do, instill self reliance in their children, not coddle them so they always have to run to daddy when they can't handle the problems they create.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5817854 - 07/03/06 09:49 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:congrats:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5818201 - 07/03/06 11:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"Many people hold the idea that there is some sort of savior that will come and set things right for humanity, to bring a new era of peace, enlightenment and brotherhood to the masses of warring and confused humans."

I found my savior several years ago....I looked into the mirror.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflinejustAkid
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5818211 - 07/03/06 11:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Very nice man.  I loved that. :thumbup:

...alot :thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5818258 - 07/03/06 11:40 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

As Mahatma Gandhi said one day as he looked in the mirror, "We must be the change we wish to see."


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5818264 - 07/03/06 11:42 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I agree.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5818502 - 07/04/06 12:42 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
Many people hold the idea that there is some sort of savior that will come and set things right for humanity, to bring a new era of peace, enlightenment and brotherhood to the masses of warring and confused humans.  The most prominent among these (in my experience) is the Judeo-Christian concept of a Messiah.  More numerous (world wide), are those who believe that a political system and it's "leader(s)" hold the answers to creating utopia, a heaven on earth.  Another example can be found in those who look to the eventual beneficent intervention of an extra-terrestrial civilization

Even if any such fanciful situations were to ever come to fruition, I think it is spiritually counterproductive to rely on them.  If we are given flesh on this earth for anything, it is to learn to better ourselves, spiritually and morally.  We do not better ourselves by relying on someone else to make things right for us.  Our betterment must be from individual initiative, from our own desires to realize the potentials that are inherent in all of us.  We do not better ourselves by having an outside authority compel us by force or threat of force to change. Likewise, the spiritual and moral betterment of our neighbors can only come from within themselves, we cannot legislate this, we cannot coerce this.  The materialistic mechanisms of the state are counterproductive to spiritual growth, reducing humans to physical resources to be plundered for some ideal, treating people as chattel belonging to the directors of the state’s apparatus or compelling them as simple minded domestic animals to be trained in the art of obedience.  It is our ability to think in abstract concepts, to create new ideas, our transmission of knowledge, and our ability to choose novel ways of adapting to circumstances which set mankind apart from all other beasts on the planet.  We cannot save humanity by sacrificing individuals to a collective or 'higher' good.  We must appeal to our fellow man’s inherent abilities of reason and compassion, to the highest faculties of the human animal.

If there is a god that made you in his image, then you must learn to create the world you want as he created the world he wanted. If there's a heaven in store for us, we must learn to make it. Nothing's going to be handed to you on some heavenly platter.  If there is any kind of supreme loving father figure, he'd tell his children that are looking and waiting for someone else to make things right to get off their sorry, dependent asses and learn to save themselves.  This is what good parents do, instill self reliance in their children, not coddle them so they always have to run to daddy when they can't handle the problems they create.




:laugh:

We're dependant because we are born with sin. If I'd been brought up believing that I was fundamentally evil, I'd be leaning towards something too.

Like - shit daddy-o, I'm fucking evil, so you have to tell me exactly what to do, so I don't fuck it up and go straight to hell AIGHT!?

Yuch.

Its time we got around to atleast pretending to be alone, on top and in control of our environment. Aren't we supposed to evolve? Or was that yesterdays news ... kinda like acid rain?  :smirk:


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: slaphappy]
    #5819208 - 07/04/06 09:26 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

slaphappy said:
We're dependant because we are born with sin.



I do not believe that someone who just came into being is already encumbered with sin. It seems rather silly that one could be guilty without ever committing an act. Sin cannot exist without volition, it requires choosing actions in contradiction to a moral code.

Quote:

If I'd been brought up believing that I was fundamentally evil, I'd be leaning towards something too.



That's a good description of 'original sin,' the fundamental evil of the innocent. The concept is just another propaganda tool of those running religions to dupe the unquestioning faithful.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5819403 - 07/04/06 10:28 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Jesus will be reincarnated some time in this world. Or he already might have we just ignored him again.


--------------------


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5819412 - 07/04/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I certainly am. :smirk:


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Veritas]
    #5819690 - 07/04/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbdown:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: capliberty]
    #5819815 - 07/04/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I was referring to putting the Jesus pretender on my Ignore User list.  If the actual Jesus came around again, I'd be interested in meeting him.  As long as he didn't make a big fuss over himself like the Pope.  :tongue:


Edited by Veritas (07/04/06 04:31 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5820094 - 07/04/06 01:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:iloveyou:


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5820114 - 07/04/06 01:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Who is pretending to be Jesus?


--------------------


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5820163 - 07/04/06 02:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:lol: I can tell you are new here, even without checking your registration date.


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OfflineSchwammel
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Veritas]
    #5820184 - 07/04/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

""""Many people hold the idea that there is some sort of savior that will come and set things right for humanity, to bring a new era of peace, enlightenment and brotherhood to the masses of warring and confused humans."

I found my savior several years ago....I looked into the mirror. """

BUT WHAT DID YOU SEE?

Did you see our savior or did you see the devil?


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Schwammel]
    #5820257 - 07/04/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You know even if a savior did come back no one would even care because they are too conditioned by everything and wouldn't even believe him.

Yes I am new. Sorry if I'm making you regulars uneasy.


--------------------


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5820644 - 07/04/06 04:29 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You're not making me uneasy.  There was a big stink here recently involving a member who claimed to be a reincarnation of Jesus.  :shrug:


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Veritas]
    #5820656 - 07/04/06 04:35 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Oh that does stink.


--------------------


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5820696 - 07/04/06 04:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, especially when the real reincarnation of Jesus is a long-time member here.  I mean, how arrogant to come on and pose as Jesus when anyone can recognize the real deal from his avatar. 

:grin:



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InvisiblePsychoChipmunk
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5822568 - 07/05/06 03:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
Quote:

slaphappy said:
We're dependant because we are born with sin.



I do not believe that someone who just came into being is already encumbered with sin. It seems rather silly that one could be guilty without ever committing an act. Sin cannot exist without volition, it requires choosing actions in contradiction to a moral code.

Quote:

If I'd been brought up believing that I was fundamentally evil, I'd be leaning towards something too.



That's a good description of 'original sin,' the fundamental evil of the innocent. The concept is just another propaganda tool of those running religions to dupe the unquestioning faithful.




Your post got me thinking about concept of original sin a different way. Forget the garden of Eden, I think the original sin is that certain religions and cultures have, for untold ages, perpetuated this idea that man is inherently flawed and evil.


--------------------
\m/


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: PsychoChipmunk]
    #5822796 - 07/05/06 08:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

People -- what have you done --
Locked him in his golden cage.
Made him bend to your religion --
Him resurrected from the grave.
He is the God of nothing --
If thats all that you can see.
You are the God of everything --
Hes inside you and me.
So lean upon him gently
And dont call on him to save you
From your social graces
And the sins you used to waive.
The bloody church of england --
In chains of history --
Requests your earthly presence at
The vicarage for tea.
And the graven image you-know-who --
With his plastic crucifix --
Hes got him fixed --
Confuses me as to who and where and why --
As to how he gets his kicks.
Confessing to the endless sin --
The endless whining sounds.
Youll be praying till next thursday to
All the gods that you can count.
-Jethro

(If you haven't already, it's time to get Aqualung, my friend.)

"The endless whining sounds."

Reminds me of someone I know...

The savior is music and it's already here... :thumbup:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (07/05/06 08:40 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5822871 - 07/05/06 09:23 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup:

Salvation lies within.


--------------------


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Offlinesignoffate
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5824794 - 07/05/06 06:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Look to the one who creates your everday for your salvation. Where else can you look to, The living creator protects and destroys at disgression entirely its own.

I know that if any person on Earth began to actively heal and cure the sick and injured, it would make great headlines. Do you think the Lord would bistow a gift so great on any one human to use however they saw fit, be it in with vast wisdom... Wonder what good it would do to heal someone of a disease? so that they look at you as some sort of powerful entity. so that they can go back to what ever sort of life they were leading.... who can tell who deserves to be saved besides G_d??

Jesus taught that God created him as the original vine, from which all branchs grow.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5824807 - 07/05/06 06:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

What is "salvation" though? I've always defined it as post-mortem consciousness/life


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5826448 - 07/06/06 03:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

the`world isnt 12,000 years old when will these people just accept their book for all it CAN be, a set of stories on how to live your life, NOTHING MORE.

Jesus, talked like a Taoist often, and he was a radical hippie, most christians I meet dont even know what the word means, or that the oil they were anioted with, called for 9 pounds of the flowering tops of canna-bossom :smile:


--------------------


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: signoffate]
    #5826454 - 07/06/06 03:04 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

GOD never wrote a book, EVER. :wink:


--------------------


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #5828083 - 07/06/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

There is alot more to the bible than that you just haven't looked hard enough. Your right God never did write a book.


--------------------


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5830395 - 07/07/06 02:04 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I don't believe in original sin. I was just giving a reason why people would do and think what they do and think, when they are told that they are evil. You probarly got that.

However ... isn't it time we stopped yapping like the know-it-alls we are, and actually join forces and do something? I'm antsy.


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Trepiodos]
    #5830493 - 07/07/06 03:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I do not believe that someone who just came into being is already encumbered with sin. It seems rather silly that one could be guilty without ever committing an act. Sin cannot exist without volition, it requires choosing actions in contradiction to a moral code.

The moral code would be obedience, the sin the choosing itself. Man being inherently evil, any choice not controlled by external circumstances is flawed. The idea of original sin may have its roots in religion, but the branches extend into every area of the modern state - for what else is election, but the picking of someone free from sin, so he may make decisions on your behalf. There is historical continuity from the monarch who rules at the pleasure of the deity, to the elected president. The latter would not exist, where he not historically preceded by the former.


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: Nomad]
    #5830499 - 07/07/06 03:52 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Nomad said:
I do not believe that someone who just came into being is already encumbered with sin. It seems rather silly that one could be guilty without ever committing an act. Sin cannot exist without volition, it requires choosing actions in contradiction to a moral code.

The moral code would be obedience, the sin the choosing itself. Man being inherently evil, any choice not controlled by external circumstances is flawed. The idea of original sin may have its roots in religion, but the branches extend into every area of the modern state - for what else is election, but the picking of someone free from sin, so he may make decisions on your behalf. There is historical continuity from the monarch who rules at the pleasure of the deity, to the elected president. The latter would not exist, where he not historically preceded by the former.




:thumbup:

Exactly.


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Where do we find our savior? [Re: slaphappy]
    #5832057 - 07/07/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Slappy you hit it right on the spot. Most people on here think they know it all but dont. If we would all work together we could help each other out.





Yea right!


--------------------


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