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Offlinecapliberty
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Evolution or Creationism
    #5814706 - 07/03/06 03:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I propose that basis of spirtuality falls into two categories

Creationism: matter being created by God, whether you want to believe god is some mystical energy or a conscious authority, that creation came from nothing by divine intervention

or

Evolution: matter of self propagation, even at its origins, that each generation becomes more complex, more intelligent then the last, that natural selection determines, existence and nonexistence

To me, people tend to lean to one or the other spectrum, in their belief system and spiritual development, which I feel is a significant point when talking spirituality,

Evolutionist, tend to doubt unexplainable phenomena or notions about concepts that have no prof, they need a rational explanation to reach a belief about something before they accept it, if its not understandable then its dismissed, they also say that cause and effect is the explanation to all things being created, causes and conditions dictate everything,

Creationists, tend to entertain God, have some unexplainable relationship to a divine figure, meaning they can't really explain how they know what they know, but their relationship of this divine figure supposedly gives them insight, they entertain right and wrong more, have moral judgments and also make conclusions off of stories about proposed divine figures

To me the two of them are an underlining premise of argument when dealing with spirituality, both theories are inconclusive in my POV, to which none of them has totally explained creation,

one can argue that evolution has explained existence, meaning how things develop each generation, become more complex, and propagate to higher levels of intelligence, but no one has proved the orgins of existence through evolution, where did DNA come from, can you explain every little nuance, that basically nothing become something, does natural selection really explain creation? through a process of something existing or not existing by causes and conditions, and what does this really say

or

creationism, that a cosmic consciousness intervened by placing the right elements together purposely to cause a chain reaction, because if the right elements aren't in place like on the moon, there is no life, where would the first formed materials of creation come from, is evolution trying to propose that chance and time happen to all because their is no beginning or end,

These two opposing positions mark the basis of most spirituality, whether how bizarre ones views become, or how ordinary they are relegated to, they seem to fall under these two cateogories,

creation seems to lend its influence towards imagination, while evolution lends its influence towards supposed rational, realistic reasoning,

I propose that sense one can't make conclusions between these two, the healthy choice is to balance you life between these two extremes,
for faith and reason are the basis of belief, both extremes require both faith and reason, evolution uses model constructs while creationism uses claims of miracles and unexplainable phenomena,

So what I want to know is what way do you lean towards, and why? or how does these two POVs integrate into your philosphy or religion?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Evolution or Creationism [Re: capliberty]
    #5815632 - 07/03/06 11:42 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

The fact that species evolve over time in response to changes in their environment is an observable fact. That said, I believe in creation in the sense that reality, including time itself, is a constant emanation of the divine.


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Evolution or Creationism [Re: Silversoul]
    #5816374 - 07/03/06 03:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Its more like the species change their environment. What alot of people don't realize is that they helped create the world. In certain terms science and religion are both dealing with the idea of an objectively created universe.

Instead consciousness formed matter. Each atom and molecule has its own consciousness of some sort. Consciousness and matter and energy are one, but consciousness initiates the transformation of energy into matter. In those terms the "beginning" of the universe was a triumph in the expansion of consciousness as it learned to translate itself into physical form. Your conscious existed before the universe was formed but that consciousness was manifested. It was a sort of dream state. Before the beginning your consciousness existed free of space and time. Each portion of consciousness is a part of all that is or "God" and the universe falls together in a spontaneous divine order and that each portion of consciousness carries within it indelibly the knowledge of the whole.

The birth of the world was a divine psychological awakening. Each consciousness that takes a part in the physical universe dreamed of such physical existence (This was before the earth was created).

There is alot more to explain and I left alot out but just ask and ill try to explain.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Evolution or Creationism [Re: capliberty]
    #5816409 - 07/03/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I believe that "god", used evolution to get us to where we are today.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Evolution or Creationism [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5816460 - 07/03/06 03:49 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Its more like the species change their environment. What alot of people don't realize is that they helped create the world. In certain terms science and religion are both dealing with the idea of an objectively created universe.

Instead consciousness formed matter. Each atom and molecule has its own consciousness of some sort. Consciousness and matter and energy are one, but consciousness initiates the transformation of energy into matter. In those terms the "beginning" of the universe was a triumph in the expansion of consciousness as it learned to translate itself into physical form. Your conscious existed before the universe was formed but that consciousness was manifested. It was a sort of dream state. Before the beginning your consciousness existed free of space and time. Each portion of consciousness is a part of all that is or "God" and the universe falls together in a spontaneous divine order and that each portion of consciousness carries within it indelibly the knowledge of the whole.

The birth of the world was a divine psychological awakening. Each consciousness that takes a part in the physical universe dreamed of such physical existence (This was before the earth was created).

There is alot more to explain and I left alot out but just ask and ill try to explain.




energy turns into matter, by consciousness which resides from a dream state, this would suggest to me that things can spontaneously create itself, by more of a mystical energy, that consciousness and space had a more of an influence of our creation, than say evolution,

evolution usually argues that consciousness was born through propagation of matter, and your saying that propagating of matter was born due to consciousness, I know first is true,

before we were less intelligent, less complex, but consciousness and our beings evolved, this suggest that the cause can be the effect, which effect can be the cause, if cause is its own effect, then essentially everything can spontaneously create which I'm not ruling out, because who we are, the "I" or "me" is nothing more than spontaneous creation

please explain more, sounds interesting, what sources did you learn this from?


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Evolution or Creationism [Re: capliberty]
    #5816660 - 07/03/06 04:38 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

All that is or "God" before the beginning contained within itself the infinite thrust of all possible creations. All that is possessed a creativity of such magnificence that its slightest imaginings, dreams, thoughts, feelings or moods attained a kind of reality, a vividness and intensity, that almost demanded freedom.

All that is almost became lost, mentally wandering within this ever-flourishing, ever-growing interior landscape. Before the beginning there existed an interior universe that had no beginning or ending. That same infinite interior universe exists now.

All that is contained within itself the knowledge of all existences, with their infinite probabilities. All that is imagined those numberless circumstances, they existed in what I call divine fact. Thoughts of such magnificent vigor began to think their own thoughts and there thoughts thought thoughts. All that is began to listen and respond to these generations of thoughts and dreams for the thoughts and dreams related to each other also.

All that is then became aware of a kind of creative tumult as each of its thoughts dreams strained at the very edges of their beings looking for some then-unknown, undiscovered, as of then unthought-of release. All that is searched through the truly infinite assortment of its incredible progeny to see what conditions were needed for this even more magnificent dream, this dream of freedom of objectivity.

What door could open to let physical reality emerge from such an inner realm? When all that is put all of those conditions together it saw, of course, in a flash, the mental creation of those objective worlds that would be needed-and as it imagined those worlds they were physically created.

There ia alot more I could go on for hours.

I got this info from a man who is dead and was dead when he told it.


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InvisibleSoY
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Re: Evolution or Creationism [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5816836 - 07/03/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I am very interested in your ideas....

please, go on
or start a new thread on this topic :grin:


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"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Evolution or Creationism [Re: SoY]
    #5817010 - 07/03/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Alright ill continue. All that is burst into reality. In are terms this was a physical explosion - but in the terms of the consciousnesses involved in that break though, this was experienced as a triumphant "first" inspirational frenzy, a break through into another kind of being. Kind of like the big bang theory.

The earth then appeared as consciousness transformed itself into the many facets of nature. The atoms and molecules were alive, aware - they were no longer part of a divine structure, but they spoke themselves through the very nature of their being. They became the living things through which consciousness could form matter.

But in are terms this was still largely a dream world, though it was fully fashioned. Species appeared that all correlated with the multitudinous kinds of consciousnesses that had waited for release, and those consciousnesses were spontaneously endowed by all that is with those forms that fit their requirements. You had the birth of individualized consciousness. Those consciousnesses were individualized before the beginning but not manifested (In the flesh). It was as if the earth and all its creatures were partially dreaming, and not as focused within physical reality as they are now.

You had sleepwalkers, early members of are species(humans), whose main concentration was still veiled in that earlier subjectivity, and they were your true ancestors, in those terms.


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Edited by twelvelookslikeu (07/03/06 06:27 PM)


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: Evolution or Creationism [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5817246 - 07/03/06 07:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

twelvelookslikeu said:
I got this info from a man who is dead and was dead when he told it.




:rolleyes:


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ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Evolution or Creationism [Re: TODAY]
    #5817273 - 07/03/06 07:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well not me personally.

Ill stop in no one is interested.


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Edited by twelvelookslikeu (07/03/06 07:23 PM)


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Evolution or Creationism [Re: capliberty]
    #5817296 - 07/03/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Did you know that a Catholic priest first proposed the Big Bang theory?

It's true. Father Georges-Henri Lemaître first proposed the Big Bang theory in 1927. It was published in the Annales de la Société Scientifique de Bruxelles (Annals of the Scientific Society of Brussels) under the title Un Univers homogène de masse constante et de rayon croissant rendant compte de la vitesse radiale des nébuleuses extragalactiques (A homogeneous Universe of constant mass and growing radius accounting for the radial velocity of extragalactic nebulae).

Of course, Edwin Hubble was quick to steal the credit and remove all previous spiritual premises of the theory.


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Evolution or Creationism [Re: spud]
    #5817316 - 07/03/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Really? I didnt know that! Thanks for the info that might come usful.


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: Evolution or Creationism [Re: TODAY]
    #5817338 - 07/03/06 07:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thats some interesting stuff twelvelookslikeu .

Reality, the elements etc is made of divine maths.
Planets are never square, time appears to only move forward, and we as humans are a reflection of the complex order, order that is inherent within even the most chaotic events.

I would consider god to be the architect.
It always has pissed me off when I would hear some christian group bickering about how evolution doesnt exist. If anything I would have thought they would want that kind of a miracle on their side.
All things cling to order, thats why dna exists.
Genetics is something christians should cherrish.
In my opinion science mixes very well with spirituality.


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Offlinetwelvelookslikeu
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Re: Evolution or Creationism [Re: stemmer]
    #5817490 - 07/03/06 08:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Imagine a body with fully operating consciousness, not diseased or defective, but without the overriding ego-directed consciousness that we have today. The sleepwalkers' physical abilities surpassed ares. They were as agile as animals, their purpose simply to be. Their main points of consciousness were elsewhere, their primary focuses scarcely aware of the bodies they had created. Yet they learned "through experience", and began to awaken to come aware of themselves, to discover time, or to create it.

They were not asleep to themselves, only from are viewpoint. There were several different races of human beings. To them the real was the dream life which contained the highest stimuli. Which would be are dreams now-days. Such races left the physical earth much as they found it. In what we call the physical waking state, these individuals slept, yet they behaved with great natural grace. They did not saddle the body with negative beliefs of disease or limitation. They did not age to the extent we do.

Energy is above all things infinitely creative, innovative, original. Energy is imaginative. The universe formed out of what God is. The universe is the natural extension of divine creativity and intent, lovingly formed from the inside out - so there was consciousness before there was matter, and not the other way around.

Your consciousness will survive your bodies death, but it will also take on another form - a form that is itself composed of "units of consciousness."

In the beginning there were also species of various other kinds: combinations of man-animal and animal-man, and many other crossbreeds species, some of very long duration in are terms. This applies to all areas. There were dream trees, with dream foliage, that gradually became aware within that dream , turning physical, focusing more and more in physical reality, until their dream seeds finally brought forth physical trees.

(If any of you ever had a lucid dream this might make allot of sense to you. This was exactly like that. You become aware in your dream and you know that your dreaming and you feel like you are really there you can feel, smell, hear, anything. It as if you are physically there in your dream you have complete control.)


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Evolution or Creationism [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5826489 - 07/06/06 03:24 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


In the beginning there were also species of various other kinds: combinations of man-animal and animal-man, and many other crossbreeds species, some of very long duration in are terms. This applies to all areas. There were dream trees, with dream foliage, that gradually became aware within that dream , turning physical, focusing more and more in physical reality, until their dream seeds finally brought forth physical trees.





That would make an great STORY, nothing more.


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