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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineBasilides
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Fear of Death
    #5814246 - 07/03/06 12:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It is often touted that many people believe in matters of spirit as somekind of defense mechanism against a supposed irrational "fear of death". One will say that any belief (or even a proclaimation of inner knowing) of God is merely one's way of dealing with "death".

But how is this not true or any different for the "rationalist" mindset? It's quite possible that uncurious attempts to reduce reality to mere formula and somatic function are in their own course dealing with the prospect of death. Afterall, some may even face the obvious possibility that the kernel of truth in existing in the first place (and maybe this is realized AT death? Who knows..) is not what it was thought of (over and over, methodically) to be. Perhaps it's not death they're afraid of, but Unmitigated Light. And the process of reducing phenomena to a test tube is perhaps the truest fear of that mystery.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleSoY
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: Basilides]
    #5814709 - 07/03/06 03:48 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Nice post! :wink:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: Basilides]
    #5814803 - 07/03/06 05:19 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
It is often touted that many people believe in matters of spirit as somekind of defense mechanism against a supposed irrational "fear of death". One will say that any belief (or even a proclaimation of inner knowing) of God is merely one's way of dealing with "death".

But how is this not true or any different for the "rationalist" mindset? It's quite possible that uncurious attempts to reduce reality to mere formula and somatic function are in their own course dealing with the prospect of death. Afterall, some may even face the obvious possibility that the kernel of truth in existing in the first place (and maybe this is realized AT death? Who knows..) is not what it was thought of (over and over, methodically) to be. Perhaps it's not death they're afraid of, but Unmitigated Light. And the process of reducing phenomena to a test tube is perhaps the truest fear of that mystery.




The fear of death is an intemplated program, a daemon running as a backup system suggesting that life is indeed life.

If life could not be terminated, it would not be. This is the duality of the primal base of existence, the yin and the yang. This is of course, just a intricate system of lies, intemplated in the programs surrounding your kernel/source/soul/you/nothing/void.

Fear of death is this programs intemplated survivalsystem - i.e the function that tells the user of the system that if the TERM signal is sent - death will be immanent, and there will be no more.

Which of course is an obvious lie, because behind the system of life and death, "nothing" and "more" and "death" are concepts of no meaning.

You can only think that you can die when you live, because when you're dead you're allready dead....or something.  :rolleyes:

Edit: God damnit, I didn't even graze the topic at hand. Anyway, the post you made was great and hit the spot right on the hammer - however I must add that this is infact not possible to avoid, and it works the other way around as well. For instance you are as we speak trying to surge phenomena to be as large as life. Pun intended  :smirk:


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


Edited by slaphappy (07/03/06 05:31 AM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: slaphappy]
    #5815799 - 07/03/06 12:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"You can only think that you can die when you live, because when you're dead you're allready dead....or something. "
Perhaps you can only think that you can live when you are dead ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineKras
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: Basilides]
    #5815896 - 07/03/06 12:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You can interpret your reality as you wish. Those that say that religion (or spirituality in general) is merely a fear of death are just arrogant idiots. The science has NOTHING to offer when it comes to death and still it try to undermine anything that can help you.

For me spirituality isn't about believing in supreme beings (still, my experience shows that they probably exist) it's about making good living that prepare you to leave literally EVERYTHING behind.


--------------------
enjoy life!


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: Basilides]
    #5816272 - 07/03/06 02:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Could thinking, as many atheists do, "my existence is relatively unimportant and meaningless, and one day I will cease to exist entirely" be used as defense mechanism?

How does investigating the world using our senses, refusing to overgeneralize, refusing to jump to hasty conclusions (non-sequiturs), thinking in probabilities (induction) rather than absolutes (deduction), constitute any kind of fear? Why should one need anything more than reality to be satisfied?

What seems much more fearful are those who willingly take enormous leaps of faith; blindly accepting ideas as actuality, ideas which cannot even be investigated by humanity. According to Erich Fromm, certain individuals need to attach themselves to something that appears to be powerful and eternal in order to compensate for their own feeling of uncertainty and impermanence. Religions, nationalism, political ideologies, racist ideologies, seem to all be good examples.

Fear has nothing to do with the unwillingness to seriously investigate the supernatural. "The Mystery" seems to be based wholly on subjective experience, meaning, in this sophist paradise, one statement about "the Mystery" cannot have any more validity than another. "Man's subjective religious experience is the measure of all things" in this arena. The Scientific Method requires repeatable observations, but "The Mystery" can only provide us with noisey deductive arguments.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (07/03/06 02:56 PM)


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5818626 - 07/04/06 01:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Could thinking, as many atheists do, "my existence is relatively unimportant and meaningless, and one day I will cease to exist entirely" be used as defense mechanism?

How does investigating the world using our senses, refusing to overgeneralize, refusing to jump to hasty conclusions (non-sequiturs), thinking in probabilities (induction) rather than absolutes (deduction), constitute any kind of fear? Why should one need anything more than reality to be satisfied?

What seems much more fearful are those who willingly take enormous leaps of faith; blindly accepting ideas as actuality, ideas which cannot even be investigated by humanity. According to Erich Fromm, certain individuals need to attach themselves to something that appears to be powerful and eternal in order to compensate for their own feeling of uncertainty and impermanence. Religions, nationalism, political ideologies, racist ideologies, seem to all be good examples.

Fear has nothing to do with the unwillingness to seriously investigate the supernatural. "The Mystery" seems to be based wholly on subjective experience, meaning, in this sophist paradise, one statement about "the Mystery" cannot have any more validity than another. "Man's subjective religious experience is the measure of all things" in this arena. The Scientific Method requires repeatable observations, but "The Mystery" can only provide us with noisey deductive arguments.




You seem scared.

Anyway. How could fear not have anything to do with anything?

I can't wrap the idea around my head, really. How can fear not be (one of) the driving force(s) of the quest for the mystery?

Wouldn't it seem fake if it didn't?

Do atheists see the world as a fake, cold-hearted and fearless place of meaninglessness?

I doubt it.

I see myself as an agnostic at best - however I tend to lean more towards atheism in the sense that I do not think there is a divine force more than it is divine cranberry-juice.

This is not saying that there is no force, or there is no God - I'm merely trying to say that God isn't, and can't be, more than what I make of it.

I mean, if we stumble upon hard evidence of the existence of God, as some entity with relatively similar attributes as ourselves - he's still just another entity in a vast system of entities "copied" off of him.

Isn't that scary?

Perhaps not, but if I found God, and God was me, I'd shit myself.

If the allmighty G.O.D, the Dog himself, the creator, the arbiter of the omniety, the great sorcerer and mighty rearranger - was as big a dumbfuck as myself ... or even the exact same dumbfuck as myself ...

I'd curse the gruesome fate forever and ever. :smirk:


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5818647 - 07/04/06 01:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Could thinking, as many atheists do, "my existence is relatively unimportant and meaningless, and one day I will cease to exist entirely" be used as defense mechanism?

How does investigating the world using our senses, refusing to overgeneralize, refusing to jump to hasty conclusions (non-sequiturs), thinking in probabilities (induction) rather than absolutes (deduction), constitute any kind of fear? Why should one need anything more than reality to be satisfied?

What seems much more fearful are those who willingly take enormous leaps of faith; blindly accepting ideas as actuality, ideas which cannot even be investigated by humanity. According to Erich Fromm, certain individuals need to attach themselves to something that appears to be powerful and eternal in order to compensate for their own feeling of uncertainty and impermanence. Religions, nationalism, political ideologies, racist ideologies, seem to all be good examples.

Fear has nothing to do with the unwillingness to seriously investigate the supernatural. "The Mystery" seems to be based wholly on subjective experience, meaning, in this sophist paradise, one statement about "the Mystery" cannot have any more validity than another. "Man's subjective religious experience is the measure of all things" in this arena. The Scientific Method requires repeatable observations, but "The Mystery" can only provide us with noisey deductive arguments.




:inlove:


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5818953 - 07/04/06 06:21 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the response.

Quote:

Could thinking, as many atheists do, "my existence is relatively unimportant and meaningless, and one day I will cease to exist entirely" be used as defense mechanism?




Absolutely. I have seen such examples myself of people who turn the notion of sleep and non-conciousness (as preceding primacy) into cognitive mutations in how they behave with other people.

Quote:

How does investigating the world using our senses, refusing to overgeneralize, refusing to jump to hasty conclusions (non-sequiturs), thinking in probabilities (induction) rather than absolutes (deduction), constitute any kind of fear? Why should one need anything more than reality to be satisfied?




When sense-data is the only intuitive function of a person instead of a consociate abut with reality, the sense data function merely re-coates the original identity scheme with another one. The recoated identity that a somatic mindset may identify with obliterates at death, so I would imagine it is originally associated with ideas regarding one's death.

Quote:

What seems much more fearful are those who willingly take enormous leaps of faith; blindly accepting ideas as actuality, ideas which cannot even be investigated by humanity. According to Erich Fromm, certain individuals need to attach themselves to something that appears to be powerful and eternal in order to compensate for their own feeling of uncertainty and impermanence. Religions, nationalism, political ideologies, racist ideologies, seem to all be good examples.




You speak against absolutes and then you call upon old General Example?

Quote:

Fear has nothing to do with the unwillingness to seriously investigate the supernatural. "The Mystery" seems to be based wholly on subjective experience, meaning, in this sophist paradise, one statement about "the Mystery" cannot have any more validity than another. "Man's subjective religious experience is the measure of all things" in this arena. The Scientific Method requires repeatable observations, but "The Mystery" can only provide us with noisey deductive arguments.




And how would this not be compensation for a lack of spiritual experience, hm?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: Basilides]
    #5819572 - 07/04/06 11:14 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Every moment could be the last. Drop the fear and experience the urgency.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: slaphappy]
    #5820103 - 07/04/06 01:50 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You seem scared.

:rolleyes:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: Basilides]
    #5820132 - 07/04/06 02:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I have seen such examples myself of people who turn the notion of sleep and non-conciousness (as preceding primacy) into cognitive mutations in how they behave with other people.

...?
Could you elaborate?
("One should never act or speak as if they were asleep." -- Heraclitus)

And how would this not be compensation for a lack of spiritual experience, hm?

How would it be?


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5820852 - 07/04/06 05:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


...?
Could you elaborate?
("One should never act or speak as if they were asleep." -- Heraclitus)





At one point I had briefly known several drug addicts whose habits were reinforced by various cognitive distortions, including the belief that since existence was meaningless, a gradual descent into psychological and physical degradation was viewed as perfectly acceptable.

Quote:

How would it be?




Well, you've got a group of people who are unable to understand or experience matters of spirit while another group is fulfilled by such experiences. When the former realizes he is unable to identify with such people or their experiences, and perhaps even intellectually aches to understand them with no avail, he goes on to dismiss them as subjective dulusions. In a sense, those who claim to have mystical experiences tend to threaten his world view.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineSchwammel
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: Basilides]
    #5820958 - 07/04/06 06:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

In a sense, those who claim to have mystical experiences tend to threaten his world view.""""""""""

who is his?


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OfflineKras
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5822924 - 07/05/06 09:42 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

How do you know that this reality isn't like a dream? Just another state of mind from which we will eventually "wake up"? You must be aware that your opinions are anthropocentric. I'm saying "don't take it so seriously" rather then "so you may just lay down and do nothing". Each world has it's own, unique rules.


--------------------
enjoy life!


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: Basilides]
    #5825752 - 07/05/06 10:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You speak against absolutes and then you call upon old General Example?

That wasn't ment as a generalization to be applied to everyone who believed in spiritualism, supernaturalism, etc. Rather, I was trying to say certian (read: some) people attach themselves to ideologies, or any other thing that gives them precious certianty, for this reason. This could be equality true of a Marxist who rigidly believes property is the root of all evil, a Christian who rigidly believes he is going to Heaven and everyone else is going to hell, etc.

Well, you've got a group of people who are unable to understand or experience matters of spirit while another group is fulfilled by such experiences. When the former realizes he is unable to identify with such people or their experiences, and perhaps even intellectually aches to understand them with no avail, he goes on to dismiss them as subjective dulusions. In a sense, those who claim to have mystical experiences tend to threaten his world view.

What about those who've gone through "mystical experiences", yet later doubt them or reject them entirely? ("They didn't really have a mystical experience" is not an acceptable answer.) While some timid-minded skeptics may simply lambast mysticism to bolster their own opinions (there aren't any people like that on here, are there?), I don't think you can assume everyone who disbelieves in religion or mysticism is doing it for this reason.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: Kras]
    #5825774 - 07/05/06 11:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

How do you know that this reality isn't like a dream?

As I've said before, "Well... you always have to wonder if this is completely a construction of your mind, and nothing more. But, since I can never know, I wander through life behaving like it is not."

It is impossible to validate whether reality is or isn't entirely a dream. But, I assume it is not a dream.

The other option, assuming it was a dream, doesn't seem to aid my behavior or thoughts in any constructive way. I'm simply left with a dead end idea. "All this is a dream... eh, now what?"


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5826035 - 07/06/06 12:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

That wasn't ment as a generalization to be applied to everyone who believed in spiritualism, supernaturalism, etc. Rather, I was trying to say certian (read: some) people attach themselves to ideologies, or any other thing that gives them precious certianty, for this reason. This could be equality true of a Marxist who rigidly believes property is the root of all evil, a Christian who rigidly believes he is going to Heaven and everyone else is going to hell, etc.




Do you believe you have any attachments yourself? Can rigid faith in sensory data also be considered as such? Afterall, I don't see how it's any more or less an absolutism.

Quote:

What about those who've gone through "mystical experiences", yet later doubt them or reject them entirely? ("They didn't really have a mystical experience" is not an acceptable answer.) While some timid-minded skeptics may simply lambast mysticism to bolster their own opinions (there aren't any people like that on here, are there?), I don't think you can assume everyone who disbelieves in religion or mysticism is doing it for this reason.




I've personally never met or conversed with someone who claimed to have a mystical experience and then later doubt its validity/reality. Is this an admission on your part, did you once have what you would describe as a "mystical experience"?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: Basilides]
    #5826473 - 07/06/06 03:15 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Many people are afriad of death.
I used to never think about death, when I was younger, it didnt scare me, or intrest me.
I just never thought about it.


As of late, I have thought about alot.
What happena after, if anything??, and what are those last moments like?
How long will I live???
what if I cant get everything I want to do done??? (this is by far the question I would like to kill the most, I dont need an answer per say, but I just wish this question would die, because, there is no answer, I may, I may not, and I shouldnt think so far ahead that my life is a tredmill)

My GF wont even let me say "we are all going to die one day" statements like that scare her a little I think, and I think it scares most people.

I have accepted that I will die, now I just have to figure out life. :tongue:


--------------------


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OfflineKras
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Re: Fear of Death [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5826481 - 07/06/06 03:19 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:The other option, assuming it was a dream, doesn't seem to aid my behavior or thoughts in any constructive way. I'm simply left with a dead end idea. "All this is a dream... eh, now what?"



It's like "how you can prove that there is a God and how it would change your behavior or thoughts?" You get it or not. From my own experience I can say that it changes a lot and its consequences are astonishing. Don't forget that it's up to you what you believe in and faith is a powerful tool on this plane of existence.


--------------------
enjoy life!


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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