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InvisibleAsante
Omnicyclion prophet
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,330
How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!)
    #581206 - 03/17/02 08:58 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

To actually create new kinds of Shrooms you shouldn't fear a little Genetic tampering with their Genome. But IT CAN BE DONE, even by virtual laymen.

First you should get your priorities straight. Do I want a different shape, texture, flavor, potency, Psilocybin-to-Psilocin ratio, growing rate etc etc etc. When you know what you want it's time to do some knitty-gritty toolshed Genetic Engineering.
Psilocybe Cubensis is the BEST species to do this with.

When spores travel trough the air, they're nuked by the UV-rays in sunlight to the point where the majority dies. Several of the spores that DO survive get their DNA scrambled to some degree. This is the reason why there are lots of Shroomspecies around & there's such wide variation. Wouldn't it be great If you could birth a new kind or even SPECIES of Shroom? You can, even in your toolshed!


The major ways to get this a-specific Mutation thing going is by following methods:

1...Mutagenic Chemicals. These could be funky Acridines, Nitrous Acid or even that inhalant called "Poppers" (Amyl/Isopropyl Nitrite) could be used for this.

2...High Energy Photons. This is basically UV through X-Rays to Hard Gammarays.

3...Nuclear Radiation. Alphaparticles, Neutrons, Accellerated Atomic Cores.

Now: You REALLY shoulden't use Mutagens. All of them can give you cancer & to say it friendly: Your GF/Wife Could give birth to a Ninja Turtle.
Hard Gamma & Nuclear stuff is just the ticket to deform the folks unfortunate enough to live on/visit your block when you shove the last Uraniumrod in.
But there's a great thing that's available to virtually all people here...

UV light is the Way To Go!!! There's "sterillizing" fluorescent tubes out there, primarily used in the meat industry & butchershops. Heck: even my barber has a little zapping box for nuking scissors & stuff that would be Ideal. If you SLIGHTLY supercharge a Blacklight tube it'll work as well, but too much & the X-rays & Gamma will be flying all over the place & yards into the ground !!! I suggest you use a "sterilizing" fluorescent and avoid supercharging ANYTHING.


Now: What to do with your UltraViolet light?

1...Make a sporesolution in water.
2...Zap it for a given time with UV. To check it add a little Glucose-water to it & wath it germinate under the microscope. You've got it right when there's 90-99% celldeath, meaning only 1-10/100 individual spores germinate.
3...Fill spore-syringes with it.
4...Inoculate a couple of cakes (PF-TEK style) with it. It's best to do over 100, but if you & the guys can even remotely manage 10.000 you really ought to do that.
5...Select the Shrooms that have the desired characteristics. If you're wise you'll ALWAYS add "vigorous growth & shroomformation" to your list. Save the spores from these for your next run: be willing to nuke 'em again to enhance the desired traits. Note: zapping generations with UV ALWAYS selects for higher resistance of spores for UV. You'll likely have to increase the exposure every X generations. Every once in a while (a long, long while probably) a new species shows up. But remember: most changes you make will vanish after several generations, unless they are MAJOR changes. Please notice you do NOTHING in this procedure that's UNNATURAL: This is what ALL Shroom spores in the Wild go through.


Now this procedure WORKS. The Sandoz-company used it successfully on Ergot to raise the Lysergic alkaloid content from a mere 50mg per liter of substrate to a wallopping 2.000mg/ltr. It's basic aspecific manipulation, and if you belong in this forum YOU CAN DO IT TOO. So if you're not reluctant to lend God a hand you easily can do this kinda thing. Remember: the possibility of your Shrooms getting poisonous or actually coming out of their jars and starting to nuke YOUR gonads is very, very remote.
Comments, anyone? (Sheesh: the Organic Hippies I just freaked will likely flame me to shreads...)


PS: All this is just theoretical & for your reading pleasure only, ofcourse...
Could you get your boot outta my ass Officer Homolka?


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Offlinetomldp
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Registered: 10/03/01
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Re: How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: Asante]
    #581252 - 03/17/02 10:16 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Looks interesting, but it would involve too much work/material/care/precision/time. In the future, people may try genetic manipulation on cubes (like some do with weed). Anyway, thanks for thispost !


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OfflineWorkmanV
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Re: How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: tomldp]
    #581328 - 03/17/02 11:55 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I agree, there are more precise methods of genetic manipulation available these days. True, they require more equipment, but the results are better. Most random mutations are bad and even if you could alter the psilocybin/psilocin potency, how would you measure it accurately?


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InvisibleAsante
Omnicyclion prophet
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Re: How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: Workman]
    #581441 - 03/17/02 02:44 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

True: it requires alot of work, but if only very few people do this & then only in a poor way, I've still helped to put the Evolutionary clock of for instance P.Cub. a couple of millennia to millions of years ahead & that IS a good thing.

There are Miraculous possibillities today in the Biolabs. Take the Tobacco, get the unwanted genes out & replace them with a multifold of DMT Phalaris genes, plant a field of 'em and you''ve got one f#ck of a smoke that can kick the shit out of Marlboro any day of the week!
Take the Cannabis Indica, replace some stuff with some bacterial genes and you can grow killer outdoor Marijuana on the North Pole!
Take the Morning Glory Ipomoea, dance a little synthetic genetic Macarena with the LSA genes so they'll add two ethyls, making 'em LSD genes & every seed of the plant as strong as a wallopping microdot!


But good ole Evolution, albeit generally more slow, has made that single cell from long ago into all that lives on Earth today! Mutagenesis is a bitch when it makes folks ill, but without genetic mutation there wouldn't be folks at all. So these Demonized things like radioactivity, freeradical ions, solar rays from Hell, cancer & birth defect causing natural stuff is Godlike as well, because if these hadn't messed up our ancestors we wouldn't be here! All 3 things I've named can be done today or next week but it's well out of reach of the common grower. It both requires alot of skill/equipment & let's face it: A UV tube costs maybe $5 while specific alterations will likely cost the ten- to hundredthousandfold of that.

Think of Holland. Not them tulips but their bud that sledgehammers tourists by the busload! These were brought up to this within 20 years, not inna lab but by selective Evolution by backyard & hobbyroom Homegrowers. Now that, selecting your best Shroom for future inoculation,is done by every serious grower here. (let 20y pass on that!) But it can be drastically accellerated by the UV-tube!

Sure: most are poor, usually in growth-rate or capability of sporulation, but some will be total WINNERS. All of you will shun me as an ethical Dr. Frankenstein but using UV is like giving the Slotmachine of Life a good pull! And the chance of hitting one of the many jackpots is good with THIS slot, that good that it was one of the earliest methods but it's still used today, mainly in Antibiotics.

Lemme go back to Sandoz: A liter of liquid substrate yielded 100gr fresh mycelium of Ergot. So does P.Cub. in PDY-water. (yeast + dextrose in potato steepwater)
Wild Ergot gave 50mg Tryptamine-alkaloids/liter. (lysergic acid amides) So does P.Cub., only simpler ones (That's BETTER). Now they worked that up to over the 2.500mg/ltr mark. If you could get the Psilocin up to 2gr/ltr this would mean an alkaloid-accumulation up to 20%, meaning 0.1gr dried (1/300oz) is a strong dose.
There's a downside: The more potent, the quicker this strenght is lost. But a potency of, say, 20-60mg/gr should be reasonably stable. And hey: how about going Compost on a Superculture?! One in so many mutations will stick and then you get to name it Psilocybe Cubensis Hippii, maybe even Psilocybe Cooldudii and perhaps, because every shot is a chance at the Big One, Radman Cyanescens!!!


HOW TO DETECT SHROOM STRENGHT: The blue-ing is correlated wth the tryptamines, especially Psilocin. Now: simple bruising the shroom & checking the rate & intensity of the blueing with watch & colorcard is very reliable for potency. You can even make little test-tube Shroomteas & let them stand for a day at roomtemp to get total Tryptamine content. A near-black bruising (like my last S&M date got) indicates it probably is super enough to warrant test-trying some. Even if your shroom ontains only Psilocin it stores for years at below -5'F/-20'C any good freezer provides... (if dry & with little air too)
As for this: Let's call it UV-TEK or something like that & hope all this was worth making the Red List at ECHELON...


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Omnicyclion.org
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OfflineDinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: Asante]
    #581764 - 03/17/02 09:47 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Spliceing genes is not only difficult but extremely dangerous.
You should read up on your m-bio and virology before attempting ANYTHING LIKE THIS.. not that anyone here likely could, the equipment is extremely expensive.


--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.

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Anonymous

Re: How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: Asante]
    #581869 - 03/18/02 12:06 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Why is P. cubensis perfect for this? I would think Pan. bispora, or possibly tropicalis would be better suited too spore mutation experiments.

Cannabis on the north pole? wha wha what!!!!! Marijuana is what it is because of selective breeding that goes back thousands of years, not twenty years.






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Offlinedi11rod
member

Registered: 12/04/01
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Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
please don't [Re: Asante]
    #581911 - 03/18/02 01:15 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

this is not a very good idea at all.

the method you are advocating (creating random mutations via UV) is so hopelessly uncontrolled that the odds are astronimically higher the results will be crappier mushrooms rather than better strains.

i could hardly really care that somebody is growing crummier mushrooms except that there is so much spore trading going on that this practice would threaten the gene pool at large. not that it's going to make other mushrooms screwed up. what would happen is that you could never trust a spore print you got from someone and know that somewhere in the ancestral history some dumbass hadn't been subjecting the grandaddies to ultra-high levels of UV and now this spore print is going to spawn weakass mushrooms. want proof of this danger? look at PF's site and check out his explanation for what happened to his famous PF strain last year. he blames it all on accidental UV interference.

if you really want unique, new mushrooms, follow mjshroomer's example and visit faraway lands and pick wild mushrooms yourself and harvest the spores. heck, take a trip to the gulf coast if you don't have the budget.

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Offlinelifetrees
Stranger
Registered: 03/13/02
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Re: please don't [Re: di11rod]
    #581967 - 03/18/02 03:13 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Nuking spore it is a very bad idea; But I'am asking myself if it is possible to make a cross between to strain of the same species starting by sporeprints. If you mix two tipe of spore, for example Cub.Thai+Cub. golden teacher in a cake, when rizomorphic mycelium will form there is a prob. that two rizomorphic myc. of different species mate toghether. If there is a very little difference in the genoma of the two they will mate toghether and form a new kind of strain. Now I do not know if I had understood completly the way mush produce carpophorus but it seems to me that this happen only when two different rizomomorphic filament cross one another coming from another spore ( or maybe also the same spore I am alittle confused 'bout that ) . So you can cross two differentstrain and produce another one if the gemona of the two strain it is not so different. It is the same that you do with flowers... And it is a safe preferred way that nature use is'nt it? It also appen in nature: did you ever seen mush of different sub species growing close in the same area that cross themselves? I' have seen in the species "Russula"(sorry do not know the name in Eng.). Last year i Have seen in the same pach of grass a "Russula esculenta ( green caps very good!)", and "Russula aemetica ( Purple red caps and hot on the tongue and non edible)" and a mush tha was a Russula with caps Green-brown that was hot on the tongue but less than aemetica : and was non another different species of Russula but a crossing between the other two.Maybe someone have tried this teck. succesfull. Sorry If I have said a bullshit ( it is that the terms for a big mistake, in Italy we said " Cazzata"?)

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: please don't [Re: lifetrees]
    #581997 - 03/18/02 04:30 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Gee guys: that's a lotta negativity...

Why would the Panaeoli you named be better? I'm really interested to know... As far as I know the Cubie is ideal because it's easily cultivated/good-sized/wide genetic variance, also in the Potency department & more along these lines.
Outdoor North Pole Marijuana? Just an example, but I think it could be done...

Sure the majority will be duds. But it's a great way to get to NEW stuff, albeit labour-intensive... I agree that "genetically beautified" Shroomspores shouldn't get into the sporetrade genepool, until proven it is both a stable & superior neostrain.

Injecting a cake with multifold thousands of spores will result in a "Gene War" where basically only the best spore combi will get to sporulate. So shooting up a cake with a vast number of spores will speed up Evolution too, & vigorous growth + sporulation WILL be criteria for selection then. In fact, it's basically the same thing as crowding a patch with Marijuana & taking the seeds of the ones that outgrew the rest, or the fact that you sow like 100 Pots & select the bestlooking 10 seedlings to reach maturity. But back to the Shrooms!

Since the best will outgrow the rest generally, mixing up spores to make what's known as an F1 Hybrid in the flower world is a great idea, since recombination of 2 different varieties of, say, P.Cub. will generally put out stronger & better shrooms than 2 spores of same cap. So if you mix up to vars that CAN recombinate, you're likely to get the cross between the two kinds you're looking for.


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OfflineEvilGir
Im the on coming storm

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Re: please don't [Re: Asante]
    #582022 - 03/18/02 05:47 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Ok there is another method that would produce a super mutant shroom,. This would be done using Mitotic Inhibitors, which is a chemical that would double the amount of chromosome in the shrooms. The chemical that would be used would be Colchicine-Dimethyl Sulfoxide which is derived from the autumn crocus.
The chemicle is already used in creating super mutant cannabis plants.
Although the chemical is HIGLY POISONIOUS.


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Fighting the man the best way I can.

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Offlinelifetrees
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Re: please don't [Re: EvilGir]
    #582057 - 03/18/02 06:48 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Cochicine it is enormusly hard to obtain in a "by the counter" way, but...Ther's a trick: you can make an aqueous solution of the plants and bulbs putting the crocus in your moulinette and mulching all the stuff with water. Let stand overnight ( do not know the exact proportion but I think that 3 plants per pints will work!) then filtre the solution and put the spore inside it for maybe 24/48 H. It sounds to me like a thing that I'have read somewhere, times ago. Yes! Now I remeber : It is the way to obtain polyploid seed from cannabis and other plants. Now I dont remember where I have read this story and exactly about what a plant, but it works: i remember photos of very strange plants with an incredible numbers ofblade per leaf..Maybe it was exactly MJ. The only disadvantage of the methods with Mush. it is that you are not sure not to introduce a combination that make poisoning mush. Who would like to try it :-)?

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Offlinelycopodium
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Registered: 03/13/02
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Loc: nyc
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
Re: please don't [Re: lifetrees]
    #582177 - 03/18/02 09:54 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

some thoughts from a molecular biologist:

moral ethics aside,
for a comparable amount of work (the brunt of the work being to propogate generations and generations of potential new subspecies to screen for improvements) i would imagine that selective breeding would be a quicker route to the desired characteristic.
point mutations or mutations that are more specific than uv irradiation would be more effective, but in order to create a specific mutation one must have a genetic target in mind to mutate, this requires knowing about the biosynthetic process of the production of the alkaloids in question, and to date (to my knowledge), the entire enzymatic process is not known, even then, say a gene has an average of 2000bp and there are ten genes involved in the process, one would really have to look to the literature of analagous experiments involved in increasing metabolites by specific mutations, because this is just as much a shot in the dark as non-specific mutagenesis.
wiccan, i hope that you will take this matter into your own hands and experiment with it, do you (or your dog's cousin's left paw) have any intentions of doing so or is this just a random thought?

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OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Re: How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: Asante]
    #582265 - 03/18/02 11:25 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

It can be done. Anyway, some people did some work already, Ps. Cubensis (and others Ps) genetic code. Hit the Nucleoides(or other) button after choosing the link.... the lineage links are also very interesting to follow...

Peace,
MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

Edited by MAIA (03/18/02 11:30 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: please don't [Re: Asante]
    #582738 - 03/18/02 08:19 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Photoperiod is gonna be a bit tricky to overcome at the northpole!!!

Cubensis is heterothallic and tetrapolar. Pan. bispora is homothallic. One spore contains both nuclei necessary to make the dikaryon. NO COMPATABILITY issues to overcome!!!

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InvisibleAsante
Omnicyclion prophet
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Re: please don't [Re: lycopodium]
    #583083 - 03/19/02 06:06 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

A friend of a friend did this "UV-TEK" for two years, but stopped doing it after he got a "permanent" alteration he liked. He's now generations further with the same strain (he only grows for personal use) and the (slightly) enhanced potency still is about equal to the Azurescens, him growing Cubies.
Two years of zapping and especially SELECTING was alot of work for him. The majority were duds, alot never even fruited at all.
His strain seems to be relatively richer in either Psilocin or Tryptamine breakdown enzymes, because it keeps not as well as the average Cubie, but I imbided myself & it's a good & potent Shroom.

I agree that selective breeding is THE way to go for most, but in the long run I think the chance of something new coming up is somewhat greater with this TEK than with the usual stuff.
I myself do a little growing every now & then but have personally decided that the UV-TEK isn't for me after some experiments.

But I really think UV-TEK will prove to be to the benefit of the Shroom because it accellerates it's Evolution and that isn't a bad thing usually...
I ain't no expert molecular biologist, tho...


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Invisiblemycofile
Pooh-Bah
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Re: please don't [Re: Asante]
    #583619 - 03/19/02 06:45 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Wiccan, if you don't know me, let me tell you something about myself. If I fuck up and make a bad call, I'll apologize and retract it. I'm not a hardass, just opinionated some times. That being said:
In reply to:

enhanced potency still is about equal to the Azurescens, him growing Cubies.



Bullshit
If i'm wrong, I'll apologize. But I call bullshit. Send a print to some vendors (workman/psilocyber, ralph, ryche etc). Name it the Wiccan strain. We'll see if it's anywhere near as potent as the azure....
bullshit
you aren't the first to make this claim....


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

Edited by mycofile (03/19/02 06:46 PM)

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OfflineHumidity
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Re: How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: Asante]
    #583710 - 03/19/02 08:51 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I did some reading on this subject a while back. Here is a link to what I had to say.

I thought that the UV was supposed to be applied to petri dishes with mycellium growing on them (not spores). You want most of the petri dishes to die and the ones that survive will be possible mutants. Here is a GREAT article all about UV irradiation.

I personally think that with a lot of time and effort a mutant can be found that will produce excessive ammounts of psiloc(yb)in. The main problem is the only way to test potency is to eat mycellium or mushrooms and see for yourself, this is subjective and not very accurate. Also, eating a mutant strain MIGHT be dangerous, if your mutant strain produces a excessive amount of some other toxic subtance it could make you sick or even kill you. I don't think that this will happen since I don't know of any fatal or toxic substances that are produced by psilocybe mushrooms.


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_____________________________________________________________________________________
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking

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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/22/00
Posts: 3,710
Re: How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: Asante]
    #583714 - 03/19/02 08:55 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

hey guess what, while doing some experiments

and keeping notes on post-it notes

I guessed trying to use that glue, in various

innoculation techniques. I think post-it notes may have

some sort of ingredients with great potential. I did a search

and saw some interesting

stuff.

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OfflineHumidity
Mad Scientist
Registered: 04/01/00
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Re: How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: Humidity]
    #583853 - 03/20/02 12:40 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Check out this page for more information of genetics.


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_____________________________________________________________________________________
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking

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Anonymous

Re: How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: Humidity]
    #583859 - 03/20/02 12:51 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Nice Link Humidity!!!

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Invisiblemycofile
Pooh-Bah
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Re: How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: djfrog]
    #584058 - 03/20/02 08:47 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Oh god! Not the post-it note prank again! God, I actually fell for that years ago. Cooking up post-its and spermicide! Damn did I feel dumb to find out it was Ythan's idea of a joke. It seems to be one that just won't die...


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.

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OfflineCatzeye
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Re: How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: Asante]
    #584302 - 03/20/02 01:51 PM (22 years, 30 days ago)

I've noticed that some strains seem to naturally go through a serious of mutations at each flush. The Amazonians I've worked with tend to start of rather small and potent with small caps then by the third or fourth flush they get very tall and have larger caps but the potency isn't the same. This is probably just a developmental phase. I've also noticed that shrooms will have a different phenotype depending on what type of substrate they were grown in. For example, I had some Amazonians grown on Rye and Millet which were cased with 50/50+ and they had a dark redish gold color and the stems were a light gold color. When I grew them out on Finch seed with oat groats I noticed the shrooms were a much more vibrant light gold with flecks of cream in them. I believe the amount of amino acids and triptomine pre-cursors in the substrate has a tremendous amount to do with a strains appearance, specifically for color and potency. I wonder if altering specific amino acids in the substrate would cause a "mutation" or perhaps bring up hidden traits?
Has anyone had experience with altering amino-acid content of substrate to produce specific mushroom traits like color or potency???
I've also noted in my experimentation with the shrooms that Nitrogen and Calcium can greatly affect mushroom size and density. I would be very interested in seeing some pictures of shrooms grown on a substrate or casing material with a High Nitrogen content compared with shrooms grown on a low Nitrogen content substrate or casing material.
Anyway, I guess my point of all this is that there are plenty of ways to change a shrooms morphology without using all the elaborate and toxic techniques described in the posts above.
What do you all think?

Cheers!

Catzeye


--------------------
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It is Colors I have Never Seen.
I can See Past You
To the White Sands.
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InvisibleAsante
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Re: please don't [Re: mycofile]
    #584485 - 03/20/02 05:24 PM (22 years, 30 days ago)

Bullshit? I can't disprove it.

It's HIS thing & he gives not a spore away. Well: could still be bullshit, nay?
I don't know how potent the P.Az. is you manage to grow, but the Azures I've tried were only like 1.5x stronger than real good PF-TEKkies, and I'm quite positive about this because I tend to use low doses.
Notice the "(slightly)" bit in that post.

"post-it".. I'd say don't post it.


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: please don't [Re: Asante]
    #584953 - 03/21/02 03:50 AM (22 years, 30 days ago)

I worked on creating atrificial life with genetic algorithms. Putting it simple that's computer simulation of evolution. There are two important things: recombination of genes (mating) and mutation (random alteration of genes).
The point is that increasing mutation rate improves results at begining but after a certain point result drasticly decline. It is similar in real evolution: very high mutation rate makes more damage than benefits.

My bet is that if your friend really got a strain that produces more psilocybin that was pure luck. It's easy to convince yourself that your mushrooms are more potent than others but that has probably nothing to do with reality. If you were using scientific methods than millions of strains and generations should be tested.

Don't belive everything you think...

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: please don't [Re: zeronio]
    #585042 - 03/21/02 07:57 AM (22 years, 30 days ago)

> mutation rate improves results at begining but after a certain point result drasticly decline.

This is a common problem in genetic evolution algorithims that don't employ speciation (species seperation).


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Re: please don't [Re: Asante]
    #3067737 - 08/30/04 01:10 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Good post. Anybody have any interesting mutants yet?


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: Asante]
    #3068783 - 08/30/04 11:15 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

GMO's rock!!!


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Offlinemycoguy
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Re: please don't [Re: di11rod]
    #3071677 - 08/30/04 11:13 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

di11rod said:
this is not a very good idea at all.
<br>
<br>the method you are advocating (creating random mutations via UV) is so hopelessly uncontrolled that the odds are astronimically higher the results will be crappier mushrooms rather than better strains.
<br>
<br>i could hardly really care that somebody is growing crummier mushrooms except that there is so much spore trading going on that this practice would threaten the gene pool at large. not that it's going to make other mushrooms screwed up. what would happen is that you could never trust a spore print you got from someone and know that somewhere in the ancestral history some dumbass hadn't been subjecting the grandaddies to ultra-high levels of UV and now this spore print is going to spawn weakass mushrooms. want proof of this danger? look at PF's site and check out his explanation for what happened to his famous PF strain last year. he blames it all on accidental UV interference.
<br>
<br>if you really want unique, new mushrooms, follow mjshroomer's example and visit faraway lands and pick wild mushrooms yourself and harvest the spores. heck, take a trip to the gulf coast if you don't have the budget.




I agree. Does the thread-starter have any scientific references to back up his post? I find this whole thing very hard to control...and believe.


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Re: please don't [Re: mycoguy]
    #3072140 - 08/31/04 01:21 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

What's so hard to believe? PF ran into problems because he had no idea what he was doing. He ran many generations of mushrooms under a blacklight.

UV mutants are a conerstone of strain development. They are well established in advanced breeding programs.



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OfflineMikeOLogical
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Re: please don't [Re: Asante]
    #3128450 - 09/13/04 03:05 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

A danger not mentioned with UV sterilizers- My friend wired one into his glove box, expecting better sterility.

He permanently ruined his eyesight from the reflected rays bombarding his eyes as he looked into the glovebox.

The total time frame in which the damage occured was a matter of days, with only a few minutes per day of exposure.

I would not recommend playing with UV without knowing how to prevent all the dangers.

Mutations in mushroom culture can be easily achieved through successive cloning. It takes much longer, but it is the only mutagenic method that is absolutely safe.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: please don't [Re: MikeOLogical]
    #3128902 - 09/13/04 10:15 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

The main danger of UV exposure is a slight increase in the rate of cataracts. This doesn't occur until later in life (40+). That information is based on exposure to the sun. You should not be using UV lamps that are that much stronger than the UV from the sun.

Your friend would have had to have a tremendous exposure to UV in order to damage his eyesight in such a short timeframe. Most hoods that I've seen have a plexiglass front on them, which would totally shield the UV rays from the user. It is also well known that you should not look directly at UV lamps. Ignoring this is akin to staring directly into the sun.

They are in common use in sterile transfer rooms and hoods. The light needs to be turned off when you start work, so the exposure should be minimal.

The proper way to induce UV mutations is to irradiate the spores until a germination rate of 1-2% occurs. This method, when done properly, will not expose the scientist to ANY UV rays. Hence there is no danger in doing it.


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Offlinevc77
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Re: please don't [Re: Asante]
    #3131762 - 09/13/04 09:03 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I think is this is a great thread. Although the concept is open for failure and quite complicated to do, it is still possible.

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Offlinemush20
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Re: please don't [Re: Asante]
    #3133107 - 09/14/04 03:00 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Uhhh, you sure they were Azures? They are way way more potent then cubes. More like 2 to 3+ times. The only thing I would think would work is possibly using mutenegins or selective breeding. I do know for a fact that they do work for pot, theres some kinda gout medicine that might work on shrooms as well. As for cubes, ive noticed the potency varies to some degree, but you cant tell accuratly by eating at all. There is way to many variables.

BTW, Your friend just happends to have some super potent mutant cubes that could revolutionise the shroom growing business and he just happends to keep it to himself when he could make a LOT of money from it?

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: please don't [Re: mush20]
    #3238447 - 10/10/04 04:26 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Hey, this sounds like fun if ya~ had the time....!    Mutation stuff is always cool.... 

(I wanted to bump this so I could find it later in my posts list....)  :laugh:

ChoW~


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: Asante]
    #3238450 - 10/10/04 04:28 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Oooops, meant to reply to the original....

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InvisibleSuper_Blunt
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Re: please don't [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3312318 - 11/02/04 11:59 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

interesten


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Chromosome Cowboy [Re: EvilGir]
    #3382960 - 11/19/04 04:35 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

jezu said:
Ok there is another method that would produce a super mutant shroom,. This would be done using Mitotic Inhibitors, which is a chemical that would double the amount of chromosome in the shrooms. The chemical that would be used would be Colchicine-Dimethyl Sulfoxide which is derived from the autumn crocus.





got any links on colchicine and cannabis?
i'm not finding anything at overgrow.

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Chromosome Cowboy [Re: Middleman]
    #3382988 - 11/19/04 05:20 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)


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Re: Chromosome Cowboy [Re: Anno]
    #3389919 - 11/20/04 04:17 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Most everything in this 4 page post is bullshit. Some not practicle, most plain wrong.

Colchicine has been used with a variety of plants. If fact the person that originated the B+ had some BS to say about it being developed with colchicine and an autoclave or some crap like that.

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Invisibleryan
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Re: Chromosome Cowboy [Re: ryan]
    #3390810 - 11/20/04 08:57 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

here is an old thread to bring up some ideas:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...=true#Post91392

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Re: Chromosome Cowboy [Re: ryan]
    #3394752 - 11/21/04 09:05 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Please excuse a newbie for butting in, but this is something that I have been thinking about.

If you want to produce bigger chickens, you weigh the chickens and breed the largest only. Selecting for the most potent mushrooms would mean having a way to "weigh" the potency and allowing only the most potent to reproduce.

From what I have read, measurements of "magic" come up only "yes" or "no". You could run your samples through a human mind/body, and try to come up with a scale. You would have to preserve viable samples of each tested strain. This would have to go on for hundreds or thousands of generations. You would have to use the same human, under the same conditions, with the same dosage. A human mind is not easily calibrated.

Then again, there may be a way to wipe a cotton swab across a mushroom and determine the potency. If so, I have not discovered it. Please correct me.


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: Chromosome Cowboy [Re: ticktock]
    #3395045 - 11/21/04 10:11 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Still, bioassay to determine potency is subjective and depends on alot more than just alkaloid content. To determine potency in this way would be extremely unreliable unless there was a large variation in actives present between the different samples. Even in such a case, the results would not be accurate as it is still subjective. You could assume that one sample is more "potent", but to pin down how much more would be impossible.


The only true, reliable way would be chemical analysis...


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Re: Chromosome Cowboy [Re: ATWAR]
    #3396229 - 11/22/04 11:00 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Exactly. It's not worth that. At best you might come up with a strain that feels like 20 grams when you only ate 15. It's easy to eat an extra 5 grams. Better to work on faster/better fruiting, or a strain that does well at lower temperatures. JMO


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OfflineGordoSmith
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Re: Chromosome Cowboy [Re: ticktock]
    #3398571 - 11/23/04 01:29 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Thats what I've been thinking about.. I'd like to go from vermiculite/brf to full shrooms in a week.. Why don't we find out another substrate or chemical that helps shrooms grow? Just like if you wanted to grow plants tall, fast.. Miracle grow, why not make a "miracle grow" for mushrooms?


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Chromosome Cowboy [Re: GordoSmith]
    #3398651 - 11/23/04 01:48 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Does miracle grow cause Cannabis to go from seeds to buds in 1 week?

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Re: Chromosome Cowboy [Re: Anno]
    #3408722 - 11/25/04 04:39 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

bioassy is certainly not the only means. You can pick up a photospectrometer from universities used pretty cheap. Soak powdered mushrooms in methanol (or other standard solvent) and check for the degree of absobtion at the wavelengths for psilocybin and psilocin

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Re: Chromosome Cowboy [Re: Asante]
    #3408803 - 11/25/04 04:59 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Isn't that just going to tell you that the substances are present? If so, you still wouldn't know if one sample was more potent than the next. You are still sailing without a compass, right?


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Invisibleryan
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Re: Chromosome Cowboy [Re: ticktock]
    #3422744 - 11/29/04 11:18 AM (19 years, 4 months ago)

no, you can measure the % absorbtion. The higher the % the higher the content. If you could get ahold of a pure standard you could even figure out how much you have

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OfflineSinisteruproar
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Re: How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: Asante]
    #3429845 - 11/30/04 08:44 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

got any pics to proove your theory?


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Offline4hodmt
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Re: Chromosome Cowboy [Re: ticktock]
    #3430027 - 11/30/04 09:22 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ticktock said:
Please excuse a newbie for butting in, but this is something that I have been thinking about.

If you want to produce bigger chickens, you weigh the chickens and breed the largest only. Selecting for the most potent mushrooms would mean having a way to "weigh" the potency and allowing only the most potent to reproduce.

From what I have read, measurements of "magic" come up only "yes" or "no". You could run your samples through a human mind/body, and try to come up with a scale. You would have to preserve viable samples of each tested strain. This would have to go on for hundreds or thousands of generations. You would have to use the same human, under the same conditions, with the same dosage. A human mind is not easily calibrated.

Then again, there may be a way to wipe a cotton swab across a mushroom and determine the potency. If so, I have not discovered it. Please correct me.






you could do GC/MS testing, but that costs a lot. unless u hav adequate equipment (i think its chromatography equipment, but im not sure, i think the machine analyzes heated vapours?).



EDIT: i was right! its gc/ms stands for gas chromotography mass spectronomy. u get a minute (seriousllllyyyy small) amount of sample, and dissolve it in a great solvent. then u heat the gasses and analyze them with chromatogrophy and by judging the masses of different molecules of the mixture. this is read out on a chart with atomic weight on one axes, and amount found in sample.


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Offlineamyloid
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Re: Chromosome Cowboy [Re: ticktock]
    #3430164 - 11/30/04 09:46 PM (19 years, 4 months ago)

>You could run your samples through a human mind/body, and try to come up with a scale.

not really, there are many factors that are involved in tripping, and i wouldn't take someones word for it that one sample is slightly more potent then another... this is what we are dealing with, small fluxations of active chemicals in differnt samples....wether its the strains genetics, the substrate it was grown on, the environment it was exposed to, or the tolerance of the person who is experiencing it... its just way too uncertain to make judgements off of. just considering tolerance alone, do you really think you will be able to capture the level of expereince from one trip to another that occurs much much later.... the last time you ate, your current health, shit even the setting your in effects the trip you experience, all these and the laundry list of others are too many factors that need to be controlled. and without the ability to scientifically communicate or record your current state makes it nearly impossible to compare one experience to another.


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Offlinepsilocybeen
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Mutants. [Re: amyloid]
    #3587792 - 01/06/05 05:21 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

My thoughts (being a geneticist):

The critics who say that finding a mutation which increases psilocybin content are correct in their belief that such a thing would be exceedingly rare. But, rare can happen, and two years seems like a sufficient amount of work to isolate a good mutation.

I'd say that the liklihood of finding an enhancing mutation through any of the routes so far mentioned (UV, mutagens, etc) could work, but the screening is very intensive. A much easier route (easier meaning more effective) would be to simply insert genes involved in psilocybin production into already potent strain through transgenic insertion. Most fungi should adapt readily to this type of treatment, I suspect, given the high degree of genetic manipulability of brewer's yeast (a highly studied fungus).

Any thoughts?

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InvisibleShroomOmatic
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Re: How to CREATE new kinds of Shrooms. (For Real!) [Re: tomldp]
    #3587979 - 01/06/05 07:44 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

if i messed with that stuff i prob screw up and accidently make a nuke and blow my neighborhood up be a bunch of mutants running around.


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Offlineticktock
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Re: Mutants. [Re: Asante]
    #3588325 - 01/06/05 09:36 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Good idea, but I can't see it happening in the real world. That sort of thing takes money. Money comes from investors. Investors are betting on making more money from the finished product.

Let's say that the potency can be doubled by gene splicing. Perhaps the product would be worth twice as much, for a while. Once the spores are out in the public, everyone will be growing them. There goes your advantage.

Then again you might just want to do the thing for the sake of doing it. In that case I'll be the first to offer a great big "Thank You!".:thanx:

Has a magic mushroom genome been mapped?


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OfflineZeroArmy27
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Re: Mutants. [Re: ticktock]
    #3588556 - 01/06/05 10:58 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

i don't think the human body would work for a few reasons...

the human body just isn't a great indicator of potency. set, setting, mindset, what you ate, how long ago you ate it, amount eaten... heck, potency varies within the same growing container from mushroom to mushroom...

genetic design of a mushroom? go for it.


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