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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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If something is assumed
#5808156 - 06/30/06 11:52 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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...it is not worth discussion. Assumed knowledge is worthless and a waste of time and power. Only when the ability to test the assumption is available does it become a worthy topic for discourse.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: If something is assumed [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5808429 - 07/01/06 12:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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But if the assumption is correct all along and the confirming test comes much later ( better technology and/or evolved conciousness )...........
Think to the past. How have scientific advancements been made throughout history?
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: If something is assumed [Re: SoY]
#5808480 - 07/01/06 01:08 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yes there have been instances where a hypothesis has been created and no working test for it was created for a long time. For instance, with the atom.
However, much thought and logic and rationality was put into creating the idea of an atom. Democritus noticed that you could smell bread from a far distance, and thus hypothesized that some small particle of bread must exist that could travel through the air. This is a reasonable conclusion.
Using the appearance of consciousness as a reason for concluding that there is some permanent self, a soul, is not reasonable nor appropriate.
In fact, my consciousness was born, it arose. This means that it has not always existed. Near as we can tell, when you die, your consciousness ceases. Since your consciousness arises and ceases, how could you possibly reasonably conclude that it is somehow permanent?
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: If something is assumed [Re: dblaney]
#5808610 - 07/01/06 01:36 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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What induces atoms and energy to combine in such a way that things actually come into life/conciousness? What causes the same materials that make up rocks and dirt and water to become alive?
How is conciousness born out of atoms?
As for the permanence, I do not claim there to be, but this quote interests me.............
"That which is part of our souls is eternal. . . Those lives are countless, but the soul or spirit that animates us throughout these myriads of existences is the same; and though "the book and volume" of the physical brain may forget events within the scope of one terrestrial life, the bulk of collective recollections can never desert the divine soul within us. Its whispers may be too soft, the sound of its words too far off the plane perceived by our physical senses; yet the shadow of events that were, just as much as the shadow of the events that are to come, is within its perceptive powers, and is ever present before its mind's eye." Helena Blavatsky, Secret Doctrine, Vol. II, p. 424
I have no idea what this source is.....
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: If something is assumed [Re: SoY]
#5808630 - 07/01/06 01:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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This would be possible if the soul existed in another dimension.
Different dimensions wouldn't neccesarily have the same pysics, or same anything......
anything could be possible
AND DON'T ASK ME TO PROVE IT I AM JUST SPECULATING -- U GUYS ARE A TOUGH CROWD!!!!
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: If something is assumed [Re: SoY]
#5808665 - 07/01/06 01:48 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
SoY said: This would be possible if the soul existed in another dimension.
Different dimensions wouldn't neccesarily have the same pysics, or same anything......
anything could be possible

Do you know what Occam's Razor is? If we are to form an understanding of reality, we start with what we know, that which can be directly perceived in reality... If the existance of some concept that we imagined could only exist if we continously make a list of exceptions that allow for its existance.
Sure, anything *could* be possible, but reality exists in but one way, the way in which reality unfolds. There is no sense in creating some concept that could be based in reality if we excluded it from our understanding of physics and the universe, as such a concept would exist in a realm that would not pertain to our actual existance in the slightest.
If one simply focuses within oneself, directly experiencing reality as it occurs, then one doesn't need to drift off into unsubstantiated concepts to explain reality, as one is directly experiencing reality, for what it is.
Stop the incessant, hollow thoughts about the nature of reality and fully experience and participate as the nature of reality. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Quote:
I AM JUST SPECULATING
Have you no imagination?
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: If something is assumed [Re: SoY]
#5808724 - 07/01/06 02:02 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Exactly, and I am ensuring that such speculation is placed in the proper context. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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I've been there man, I've had the epiphany, I've seen the video the rembering and shed tears at its beauty, remembering my own experiences. I have rejoiced at the isness of everything.
But don't you ever question how conciousness exists??
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: If something is assumed [Re: SoY]
#5808731 - 07/01/06 02:04 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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besides the fact that it just is.....
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: If something is assumed [Re: SoY]
#5808741 - 07/01/06 02:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
SoY said: But don't you ever question how conciousness exists??
I tend to question everything, but that doesn't mean that I provide my own answers.. I maintain a perspective from which I observe reality as it provides answers.
So far, nothing yet! No true answer, but, perhaps more beneficial to my ability to navigate reality, no speculative answer that instills me with a sense of knowing, which would diminish my ability to purely observe!
Time for bed. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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capliberty
Stranger


Registered: 04/23/06
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Quote:
firecrackers_god
If we are to form an understanding of reality, we start with what we know, that which can be directly perceived in reality
If we are to form an understanding of reality we should also be conscious of the stuff we don't know, the stuff that we have not perceived yet or even aware of, but it exists, in nature or in form, its obvious to me if your ignorant then you can only make conclusions of what you perceive through that ignorant perception, it may not be evident to you as it might be to someone else,}-- and back asswards, reality may not be as straight forward as it may appear so how can we really determine whats directly preceived, and because of this we shouldn't dismiss or undermine the possibilities that may exist and be so confident that we exactly understand what we do know, in nature and in form, for who can really begin to understand the total accurate picture or the true nature of reality, for as we engage life we are incapable of knowing everything and experiencing everything
Edited by capliberty (07/01/06 04:26 AM)
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michael_lifshitz
Student


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Re: If something is assumed [Re: capliberty]
#5809152 - 07/01/06 08:05 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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The only issue I can see here, is that assumptions are not useless if one loses some degree of suffering, and becomes more at peace because of them.
I realise that this peace would come with the burden of a twisted view of the universe, but I believe that a twisted view of duality or samsara is worth cultivating if it allows you to come closer to some sort of awakening or satori, because in the end one in a state of perfect isness will have no use for a conventional view of the universe in the first place.
I am enjoying a big shift in my philosophy. I feel like I have decided that knowledge is less important than I previously thought.
Having said that, I feel like making assumptions about the nature of things simply to satisfy one's ego with lies is certainly not as wise as keeping a careful eye on answers and investigating them, staying neutral until one truly does make sense. Jumping to conclusions never seems like a good thing.
Edited by michael_lifshitz (07/01/06 08:07 AM)
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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The only issue I can see here, is that assumptions are not useless if one loses some degree of suffering, and becomes more at peace because of them.
If the assumptions are faulty or simply not true, then you'd experience some degree of peace based on lies! Unless you live life as a hermit, you're bound to enter situations where your faulty assumptions are challenged, and since they were faulty, they're bound to come crashing down around you, and your peace would be shattered.
Life is pleasant at times, and unpleasant at times. I'd much rather embrace both to embrace the truth rather than run away from the truth with faulty assumptions that only foster ignorance.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: If something is assumed [Re: SoY]
#5809300 - 07/01/06 10:14 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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A hypothesis is not an assumption...it is where an educated guess IS tested. An educated guess is NOT an assumption.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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Re: If something is assumed [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5809301 - 07/01/06 10:15 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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ASSUME = ASS + U + ME
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: If something is assumed [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5809634 - 07/01/06 12:38 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Assumptions form the basis of the foundation of knowledge.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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No they do not. Assume means to act on information that is not certain. The Lakota had no concept or word for assume in their ancient form of their language....a wise property for those who live in the wild where nothing is certain.
Assume: To take for granted; suppose:
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/01/06 11:36 PM)
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SoY
I am the LizardKing


Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 774
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: If something is assumed [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5810909 - 07/01/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't assume anything. I ponder, entertain ideas, and observe reality. If my observations enforce my ideas, I give them more credibility. One must constantly think new thoughts and come up with new possiblities of reality or else our understanding of the nature of reality will never change. Once again, think of past scientific advances. We have understandings today that would seem rediculous at certain stages of history. Someone had to have a crazy idea pop into their brains, then go and observe and eventually test it in order for new understandings to arise. We can't be so arrogant as to say that we understand the nature of reality at this point in time. That would be like the guy who so long ago said that everything that could be invented already has been....
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   "The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji "Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream." "My karma ran over my dogma!"
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