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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes * 1
    #5804383 - 06/29/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

WEll I just received from Dr. Guzmán the following note regarding Shroomy Dan's mushrooms from Ohio. According to Dr. Guzmán, they are not P. caerulipes. May be a new species or one already known.

He will studied them.

Dr. Guzmán also let me know that he is going to name a mushroom in my honor for my work in the field of Psilocybe.

You are the first to hesr this from me.

mj


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Letter to mjshroomer from Gastón Guzmán.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Dear Allen:

I received in a very good condition the specimens of "Psilocybe caerulipes" that your friend sent me from Ohio, also a CD with pictures, both wild and cultivate specimens. However I only received a little book with three
specimens: 1, 3 & 4, of five specimens your friend said sent me.

Sure it is not P. caerulipes, because this mushroom from Ohio has annulus, which is absent in P. caerulipes. I will study it very careful.

I am sorry to have so much work, and I did not have time until now to finish to concluded with your "P. violacea" which is nothing new, as I wrote, but maybe a new record, and then I can write a paper with your name as co-author (sure).

Thank you very much for the information you sent me about the paper of Psilocybe from Tasmania. It is very interesting and I am establishing contact by e-mail with Y.S. Chang, asking the types of two of his 8 species he and his colleagues described. The other are Hypholoma, stropharia and Pholiota, but those I ask him, are really Psilocybe, that I will like to study. I hope he can send me the types.

I am very acknowledgment with you, because you time ago send me fungi material, pictures and good information, useful in my studies. Sure in a close future, I will put your name on a Psilocybe from your collections or also from NW USA or Indonesia. Take patient.

My best regards to you.

Dr. Gaston Guzman

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

mjshroomer

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: mjshroomer]
    #5804421 - 06/29/06 07:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hmmm...

Pictures for the folks who missed them.



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Invisiblemushpuppet
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: mjshroomer]
    #5804445 - 06/29/06 07:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: shroomydan]
    #5804495 - 06/29/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hi Shroomy Dan and Mushbox, Thanks again for reposting some of those images.

I should make clear another point on the identification of the shrooms of Shroomy Dan.

While this is not P. caerulipes, it is possible that it could be a new species or maybe one already known but never reported from the USA. It could be a summer species common in Mexico.

I will be sure to post any new info sent to me by Guzmán in the future.

have a shroomy day,

mj

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InvisibleLouiseLouise
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: shroomydan]
    #5804646 - 06/29/06 08:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Excellent work  :mushroom2:


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"That's why you get in close to them, and then take the picture!! Don't be a pussy!" ~CC

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OfflineQuankus
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: LouiseLouise]
    #5804663 - 06/29/06 09:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

excellent photos, whats the name of this new species Dan?


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CyanoFriscosa

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InvisibleCureCat
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: Quankus]
    #5804700 - 06/29/06 09:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Exciting!  Awesome pics, and very interesting findings MJ!!  Keep us posted  :smile:


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OfflineLysergic_Milkman
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: CureCat]
    #5805173 - 06/29/06 11:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Aren't those the same mushrooms that all the Georgia hunters said looked unmistakably like Psilocybe weilii?

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OfflineCaRnAgECaNdYS
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: Lysergic_Milkman]
    #5805315 - 06/30/06 12:16 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Great photos. Please keep us informed. :smile:


--------------------

The secret to being funny is to say smart things stupidly, or is it stupid things smartly? Whatever..it's not rocket surgery...or something like that.

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: CaRnAgECaNdY]
    #5806177 - 06/30/06 07:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Actually i dont want to sound disrespectful, but i wouldnt hold my breath on a identification by Guzman. I know of people who have sent specimens to that very man and received conflicting replies from the same specimens of mushrooms.
Yoru much better doing IDs yourself based on pre-described cystidia shapes or rna sequencing.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: shroomydan]
    #5806182 - 06/30/06 07:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

to give you an example, guzman delineated species based on differences that would have delineated Pan.cyanescens into 12 different entities.
he didnt check spore compatibility and ofcourse all of the subaeruginosa variants were 100% compatible.
Watling even went out and type-specimened Ps.eucalypta based from where 'guzman told him they might grow' without any macroscopic or microscopic specifics being given.
Now that aint science...


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #5806376 - 06/30/06 09:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Lysergic_Milkman ,

Those are not Psilocybe weilii and look nothing like them. The weilii also have no ring on them and these ones that Shroomy Dan collects has. Thus they are not P. weilii.

As for Guzmán, he has already studied over 11 species I sent to him last year, two of those species are new species, three unknown at the moment and the rest were already known species.

And Blue Meanie, As far as your friends sending mushrooms to to Dr. Guzmán, most likely they were already known species so maybe he felt no need to study them further, or they were species already known, or it is most likely that he has not yet examined them. His Engilish is not so c good sometimes so it is possible your friends misread his bad English rather than they did not make sense of what he wr4ote.

For instance my mushroom, P. violacea,



Those P. violacea were later cultivated by both Workman and myself

and as Guzmán noted, a paper by he and I is forthcoming.

I discovered that species in 2001 and just got the data last year for those. So it takes time to look at everything.

However, the P. violacea turned out to be an already known common tropical species, Psilocybe pseudobulacea.

My unknown Psilocybe from last year, which grew by the hundreds in open rice paddie pasturelands in Thailand is not a Psilocybe. Roy Watling looked at fresh specimens and thought it was a possibly a Stropharia species. I agreed with him, but Guzmán examined a collection of them I sent him three years ago and told me they were actually a non-active species of Hypholoma.




And here are two images of a new species of Psilocybe. But Guzmán has not yet got to examine these mushrooms.

Two images of an unidentified manure Psilocybe species.. One image from the wild



Outstanding features are the fibrils on the stem and its annulus and no incurve margins in this species the caps become almost wavy, are thick and full.

and the second image is a basket collection with one cube partially visible (the one with the incurved margin at the top of the basket).



Those particular shroom collecions are from 2002. He has yet to examnie those.

And One more note regarding Blue Meanies above comments.

Gastón and his daughter Laura, who is but one colleague of many who are helping with Guzmán's work in assisting him as he rewrites the revision of "The Genus Psilocybe", have several hundred more collections of mailed in and/or collected by him, Psilocybes to yet examine, so please tell your friends to be patient.

If everyone who visited the shroomery here begin sending him mushrooms to examine, I would personaly go nuts.

And this is just my opinion because the majority of people who come here to the mushroom hunting at the Shroomery forum are constantly asking,

Quote:

"I found these in my backyatrd, are they magic?"




or

Quote:

"Can you tell me what kind of mushrooms I have?"




So, if ten thousand members of the shroomery sent collections to Guzmán for examination. And I use ten thousand as an absurb example, that would be a pain in the ass.

When Daniel Stuntz was head of the University of Washington's mycology Department in the 1970s when hundreds of daily pickers were combing the fields of Washington, He told me that ten people or even more than ten people a day were bombarding his his office and phoning him at the UW and sometimes it was impossible for him to work and teach his classes. People in the city were bringing him mushrooms left and right. Many of them actually knocked on his class room door and at his lab room classes, often interruping him for a quick ID of his shrooms. By 1978, he was only seeing students and a few pickers because his office would only make appointments to students in order to see him. There were just too many people irritating him with stupid questions because many people do not want to read or study the shrooms that they collected. They just want them ID'ed so they could go pick more.

Even the curerent UW mycologist and member of the Pugot Sound Mycological Key Council, Dr. Joseph Amirrati, also an author of several large Mushroom Identification books which detail both poisonous and magic shrooms, as well as edibles, often gets bothered by Seattlelites who want id's for their lawn collections.

If your friends sent shrooms to Guzmán, then he will look at them when he has the chance. His Institute research work comes first and his personal studies after.

IF one is in school and has a department head mail collections to Guzmán, then i am positive that he would probably look at them faster than Tom, Dick or Harry who are sending him their back yard or local collections. I am sure he will examine whatever he has when their turn comes up.

And most of all I should really not have to apologize for Guzmán about your friends complaning that Guzmán has not answered their mails or looked at their collectionss they sent to him.

So much for that.

Mjshroomer

Edited by mjshroomer (06/30/06 09:45 AM)

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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #5806387 - 06/30/06 09:36 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Hi Blue Meanie,

Guzmán does not study Copelandia or Panaeolus species, only the Psilocybe species and other natural occuring shrooms of Mexico. He has never published a single paper on Copelandia, except for his paper on Copelandia mexicana from Mexico of which I have a copy and of the genus Panaeolus in Mexico. And those papaers were in the 1970s.

Rolf Singer is the one who wrote on Copelandia and Gyorgy-Miklos O'lah and Ewald Gerhaardt,. both wrote monographs of Panaeolus species.

As for the Watling Comments, I am not aware of them so I cannot respond to them. Where did you get that data form?

mj

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OfflineLysergic_Milkman
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: mjshroomer]
    #5806543 - 06/30/06 11:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mjshroomer said:
Lysergic_Milkman ,

Those are not Psilocybe weilii and look nothing like them.  The weilii also have no ring on them and these ones that Shroomy Dan collects has.  Thus they are not P. weilii.
\




Of course they are not Psilocybe weilii, that is not what I was implying. There was a post in an earlier thread where many weilii hunters stated that the caps of some of the maturing fruit bodies pictured looked similar to psilocybe weilii.

I look forward to updates on this new species!  :thumbup:

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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: Lysergic_Milkman]
    #5806613 - 06/30/06 11:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks Lysergic_Milkman for the reply,

AS I noted above, it is good that the posters here do not mail in their comments to Guzmán or other known mycologists. Those kind of comments by others who claim mushrooms look like....

but do not really look like....

Could drive those researchers out of their minds.

I have posted images and shown images of deadly Galerina autumnalis and had people sweear on their mothers graves that they had eaten those very mushrooms I had shown them in the pictures.

Of course if they had they would not be here.

I have even taken people picking and they throuw many7 different shrooms into their bags of good ones and say things like, well they all look like mushrooms you showed us. Then ilay their bags out on a piedce of paper and show them the bad non-active ones they put into their bags.

Of course not all pickers are stupid, but even many here admit they ate the shrooms without knowning what they had.

mj

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: mjshroomer]
    #5807846 - 06/30/06 09:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

thats all great but when the methods your using to delineate species are flawed, then it muddies the waters for everyone else.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: mjshroomer]
    #5810441 - 07/01/06 06:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Guzman said:
Quote:

Sure it is not P. caerulipes, because this mushroom from Ohio has annulus, which is absent in P. caerulipes.





Stamets says in his description of Psilocybe caerulipes:

Quote:

Partial veil thin, cortinate, and forming an evanescent fibrillose annular zone in the superior region of the stem, if at all.



Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World - page 104

The veils on my mushrooms exactly match Stamets' description for Psilocybe caerulipes.

If it came down to shroomydan vs. Guzman on a Psilocybe ID, it would be reasonable to defer to Guzman. That being said, I believe Guzman is in error in this case, because his reason for saying my mushrooms are not P. caerulipes, "has an annulus", is not supported in the literature.

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InvisibleshroominDole
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: shroomydan]
    #5810722 - 07/01/06 08:05 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Here is Guzmans descripts from his monograph concerning the annular velar of Psilocybe caerulipes :

' Veil as white arachnoid fibrils well developed in young stages,but not forming any
annulus in the mature stage. '


Velar is always so variable for any species possesing a gill or universal covering.....in Amanita where so much emphasis is placed on the the velar developement.....how it is displayed and persists you see every variable to the extremes for the described characteristics in the literature......you learn this very quikly when you begin to delineate species for the purpose of ingestion.....I cant think of how many times I've found Amanita velosa with a full blown persistant membranous annulus....

Actually mushpuppet in his picture post above has just as much of a well developed annulus if not more.....and if I'm not mistaken these were from wild strains of Psilocybe caerulipes he collected himself....

Here is his link supplied above to the thread by mushpuppet showing these annulated Caerulipes which MJ had replied to....


--------------------
Worlds Largest 'Liberty Cap' (Cali Libs Confirmed !)
' Comments On Hallucinogenic Agarics And The Hallucinations Of Those Who Study Them '
Alexander H. Smith
Mycologia vol.69 1977

Edited by shroominDole (07/01/06 08:16 PM)

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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: shroominDole]
    #5811030 - 07/01/06 10:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That was Guzmán 1983. He is currently revising the whole book.

and you should have posted the references onthe pages for P. caerulipes of where the ones he examined are from.

And Guzman has specimens of Shroomy Dan's which he will examine and when I hear from him on them, I will post it here./ WE are also doing chemical analysis and I will be in Thailand Shortly and do the SEM's on the species. So now there are three major deposits of specimens of Shroomy Dan;s Shrooms in three major Shroom Universities, and when I say three, that is Mexico, Thailand and Germany. Three schools which have liberal programs to do research on psychoactive shrooms.

mj

mj

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Shroomy Dan's Mushrooms: Possible New Species: Not P. caerulipes [Re: mjshroomer]
    #5812602 - 07/02/06 02:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I went out today to collect some more specimens to send off to the folks working on these. Despite the recent several days of rain, mushrooms are becoming very sparse in my patches. Most of the colonies seem to be growing vegetatively, expanding the reach of the colony. These things are super-rhizomorphic.  :tongue2:




Most of the specimens I found today had no perceptible annulus.

                                                                                                           


These wild specimens have evanescent to non-existent partial veil annular zones. I think the confusion may be from what appear to be persistent veils on the cultivated specimens, but those veils only 'persisted' for a few hours before diminishing to an evanescent annular zone evident in the more mature specimens. I still think both the wild and cultivated mushrooms are P. caerulipes. Perhaps Dr. Guzman has only found specimens without veils, but Stamets says the veil can sometimes leave an evanescent annulus, and Lincoff also reports "evanescent partial veil".
National Audubon field guide th North American Mushrooms, Pg. 720.

Anywho, I'm off to one of my other patches to see what I find there. 

Peace, love and shroomyness.

:smile: :heart: :mushroom2:

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